instantfob

Sounds like an introduction to an AA program.

Quadcammer

ok, so the car isn't faster. Good, glad we agree. Heavier steering is once again not terribly effective at improving control. Feedback through the wheel, something BMWs used to be known for, is where true control comes in. Instead of the gimmickry, a plain old hydraulic steering unit seems to provide that missing feedback.

More instantaneous power and control? Why isn't this supposed sporty vehicle always providing instantaneous control. Is the lag in the inputs so bad that you even need this? Once again, is the car a bit more responsive in sport mode...sure. Does it make the car fun to drive or better performing? absolutely not.

You have more experience with the F10 than me. But your inability to provide a balanced review of whatever you have at the time (i.e. your "whatever I have right now is the bestest thing ever"), causes you to exaggerate, make ridiculous claims, and simply make stuff up to support your biased positions.

Finally, i'm STILL waiting on links where I've admitted that I haven't driven new cars and that the w220 is the pinnacle of automotive engineering. Your repeated neglect of this request reveals that you can't support your false allegations. You are simply lying to support your agenda.

phalen302

K-A has proven nothing but bunch of BS. He keeps repeating BMW marketing material.

I think deep down he misses the Benz

instantfob

There's so much heat on this thread that Adbots are picking it up



/\ /\ BULLY AD! wahoo! /\ /\

golfster

Lots of drama in a car forum.

hyperion667

Arrie

The 323i that I talk about was not in the U.S. and it was very long time ago. It was a german owned car and may have had some tune on it. It was one of the fasters BMW made cars at the time.

I think the 323i you would be talking about is way weaker than what I am talking about.

K-A

You just don't get how modern cars work.

The car is designed for smooth takeoff and operation. Sport mode is WAY too aggressive and sensitive for Jane Doe in her 5 Series. These attributes are by design.

If you have a guy in Sport and one in Comfort, the Sport mode guy will be in his powerband for instant torque and takeoff, thus actually yes, making him "faster". If I need a booster of sorts, I click my car into Sport and it wakes up from the comfy cruiser it is in "Comfort".

I guess it makes sense that a Mercedes/W220 guy won't comprehend the merits of a good and engineering-driven Sport Mode, but I'm truly flabbergasted that I need to explain how this works for you.

If it frustrates you so much that you have to be so oblivious to the subject, just buy or finally actually DRIVE a car you debate. I do.

And yes I do my research and ALWAYS buy the best car in the world for my criteria, my next car will HAVE to be better otherwise I'll get another F10. Sorry I don't keep the first car my parents ever bought me for going on 10 years so I can prove to "stick to my guns". We as people do evolve you know.

RobbieRob

And yes I do my research and ALWAYS buy the best car in the world for my criteria, my next car will HAVE to be better otherwise I'll get another F10., QUOTE.

Have to bust some chops buddy, you only lease, not buy. After reading, the fact that you speak of a ,"RACING HERITAGE", 306hp 6 cylinder(m sport)makes me smile. Its still a 6, not a race car and the M sport package is more about the cosmetics on a BMW just as it is on a/your previous Mb 350 6 cylinder. This whole post is absolutely ridiculous and if anyone thinks that either youtube videos with the 6 cylinders weren't power braking to get the tires spinning before they did a circle(LOOK AT THE BRAKLIGHTS ON THE 535), or straight line "so called burnout", hasn't driven a v8. Sorry, but both videos were week. Its easier to do a power slide in a circle then it is to do a burnout in a straight line, weight distribution/shifting??? I'll drive anywhere to prove a point, I don't want to hear any dispute that is just hearsay, I'll prove it..... BLAH BLAH BLAH... Sport button or not, you guys(KA) are debating the power of a 6. WOW. Please Ka, show me a video of your car doing a straight burnout(or frying the tires like you said/say) from a dig ,burnout without powerbraking(just romp the throttle), just a straight line take off from a stop in any sport selector you want? Maybe a squeal, that's it. Frying the tires will not happen, bet 5k. Deal? And I want to see the rear end so I can see the brake lights. Now, back to the Bimmers sport package. I have to admit, years ahead of mb, paddles are on point, tranny works different. Benz should definitely follow this setup.

K-A

I said that the SPORT Modes are so comprehensive it is clearly from a brand that understands sporting heritage. M-B never had a true sporting heritage on their production cars thus their Sport mode is meaningless and a joke compared to BMW's. I never said my 5 Series is of "racing heritage". It's a solidly powered Luxury Car that has a chassis so over-engineered that it comes from a much more expensive car (7 Series) down to sharing an identical suspension design, which is meant to be worn all the way up to the Rolls Royce Ghost (hence "overengineered") thererore its chassis boasts 38,000nm of torsional rigidity which is one of the bests in the INDUSTRY, making the E's 29,900 nm's of torsional rigidity seem osoft in comparison, which explains the F10's solidity and quietness/isolation advantages over the W212 (it's an astounding 30% stiffer than the W212 which says A LOT as the W212 is VERY stiff!).

However, BMW shows characteristics and methods (like an M suspension, Sport Auto trans, comprehensive Sport Modes, etc.) that can give such an inherent luxury machine a sporting character as well.

This isn't a "V6", it's an *I6*. Night and day difference and I prefer it to many V8's. An I6 is one of the ONLY INHERENTLY BALANCED ENGINES IN THE WORLD, as a V8 isn't even technically inherently balanced. An I6 also makes noises that a V6 couldn't get near and I even prefer it to many V8 engine notes.

Believe me buddy, my car can probably roast the rear tires almost as good as your N/A V8, what the guy did in that video isn't very hard for a 535i with Sport + (SAT option), and yes you can get the rear spinning for a good while by just mashing the gas in Sport + Mode. The N55 I6 on the 535i makes PEAK TORQUE at 1,200 RPM's, basically meaning you have PEAK torque from almost idle. The N55 I6 has been shown to dyno at 300+ REAR WHEEL torque (it is very underrated by the manufacturer, proven by dynos and track times) which means it's putting about a good 330 Torque to the crank, making that at ONLY 1,200 RPM's. So do the math my friend, even on paper it can roast the rears. It makes almost as much actual torque as your V8 with 2.5 extra litres.

The N55 I6 is one of the industries best masterpiece motors when you take into account all that it can do (over 33 MPG, smooth as silk even if you literally hold it at redline, torque to roast the rear wheels sideways, and a high redline for a torque heavy turbo motor which means it even acts as a "rev happy motor", there isn't anything it isn't great at, unless you simple crave "more"), and its continuous awards show many agree.

champaign777

Modern BMW - Soviet Union tank T-41; World War II
not reliable and jerky but fast and curious and has M Package mantra
can reach Tiger fast but cant kill it as turret does not work
Modern MB - German tank Tiger ; World War II
reliable , smooth and powerful , doesn't have M Package mantra
not so fast as T-41 but will kill it from the long distance for sure
LOL on your drama

ScottNJ

I can vouch for KA that the sport mode on the F10 is a REAL sport mode that significantly changes the entire feel of the car. Even my 528 changes drastically when I push the sport mode button. I believe the steering and suspension gets tighter and the car feels much faster.

Now when I press the sport mode on my MB, the only difference from Eco mode is that it has higher shift points, and probably nothing else, it seems like MB wants consumers to think that they've completely changed the car's mood when really it's mostly psychological.

I'm not bias because I own both, but you have to give credit where it's due. The problem is, almost all of the BMW bashers on here have probably never given the F10 or any BMW for that matter, a chance. I respect one's choice to prefer MB over BMW but everyone should give the F10 a chance, I know I didn't want to at first but I'm glad I did. MB used to be my favorite car even as a little kid but my favorite car brand is falling behind big time which is probably gonna result in me trading in the E350 for another BMW.

phalen302

K-A drinks BMW Marketing kool aid all the time, and he keeps putting up the BMW marketing material - Don't make him press that "Sport" button

His 535 with sport button activated is NO better, faster, attractive or has ANY IMPROVEMENT over regular 535 with no sport button pressed (Even the BMW folks on BMW forum know this) What a character (K-A) He has no proof what is the benefit except for the imaginary one and a lot of verbal garbage.

He has no REAL knowledge of the car he drives and has become a "Joke" on this forum - hence the title "Here's one for K-A". I bet $100 he has a fake M5 badge on his ride.

BMW "Sport" button (software program) holds the gears longer and slight advance improvement in timing - but at the end of the day the performance gains are negligible not even 1% improvement. If any BMW guy can prove that there is a performance improvement by pressing that "Sport" button (faster lap time, faster 0-60 etc...)- please do share - I am listening with ears and eyes wide open.

phalen302

I'm not a BMW basher or MB fanboy.

Sir - Please do share if there is any REAL performance improvement i.e. faster lap time, faster 0-60 etc...

ScottNJ

Sir - Please do share where in my post it says that sport mode adds horsepower/torque? Refer back to my post and you will find that I used the word "Feel". And I don't know about you, but tightened suspension/steering and increased throttle response are all important improvements that increase the connected feel between the driver and the car. (You will not notice any of these changes when pressing the sport mode in your MB.)

E Classy

^ those "feel" changes you guys enjoy are completely fake. i would also go so far as to say almost dangerous under certain driving conditions where the car is being pushed. the effect is the exact opposite of what you're thinking - it disconnects the car and the driver by inserting a processing unit between the two.

the feedback/input from the car is given to the processor to make adjustments (instead of to the driver) based on,what it thinks the car is doing... and vice versa in reverse - driver input is passed to the processor which makes adjustments based on what it thinks the driver is doing.

i guess i'm old school but i don't like that if a car is advertised as sporty. i just want an actual sports car with a mechanical feel.

ScottNJ

The suspensions and handling on BMW's are light years ahead of mercedes, there's nothing fake about that! You've obviously never driven one so you wouldn't know. The base bmw suspension is superior to a MB sport suspension. When I go around turns in the whole car shifts and I am moved around in my seat. In the bimmer the car barely tilts and handles turns very very smoothly and that is REAL.

E Classy

^ ummmmm - i have recently owned a BMW and have recently driven a 2013 F10. i'm not sure how you can argue the electronic processing disconnect as all of the press has hit them time and again for bad steering feel.

it wouldn't be a problem if not for the marketing and kool-aid drinkers espousing sporty performance. your butt dyno and interpretation of "feel" means nothing. that is why people are getting on K-A. a lot of us grow weary of his opinions-as-facts routine.

i am not however claiming that e-class is "better" or more sporty, only that the e-class is more honest. i did not order one for sporty performance. most people do not...

E Classy

i'd like to finally solidify my argument about modern BMW's by referencing the OP linked material (what started this glorious flame throwing thread).

my personal experience with an F10 was that it was a nice sedan to drive around and be seen in. it made me feel the part, like some '80's executive as i cruised around. i liked playing with the suspension options and felt the car was very comfortable. however, the experience also felt especially virtual - and that was where the fun and enjoyment stopped. i then thought about all the potential issues i'd have to face if some of these components started fail and how much that would cost me; how much of a headache it would be to visit the service dept. too frequently. how much easier it would be to just use conventional parts and not have to fuss over a bunch of settings. let the car just be the car.

here is the text from OP's article that affirms some of our views that K-A is pretty much full of BS about his F10. it's OK to enjoy your own car, but it's annoying to keep posting in a competitor-based forum how much the f10 relieves all of the disappointments he had with his w212. the fallacy here is that K-A should not have been in the MB in the first place, as the MB does not match his criteria. it's very easy to knit-pick something that can't satisfy your needs in the first place... and then praise something that does.

plus, if i were a moderator i would remove that stupid signature he has. it adds nothing but to pull punches from and thumb a nose at MB owners who are here as enthusiasts of a certain brand.

"Judges dinged the M6 for being too heavy and unsettled in corners. Moreover, the car felt numb and isolating, like there was always a barrier between you and the road. Loh described it thus: "The M6 tunes out nearly every chassis response, and then tries to dial it back in to your liking." Ah, but there's a button for that, isn't there? Actually, there are about a hundred of them. The M6 offers a wide range of options for fine-tuning the car's various computers to dial in performance for any given situation. On its face, this seems like a good thing. In practice, you end up fiddling with settings forever. We calculated 125 possible combinations of throttle, suspension, transmission, and other settings. Somewhere around combination 26, you realize that none of them is really making the car much of a better driver's car, and you're just wasting time."

Pufftrees

LMAO at the bully ad lol .

Sorry I have nothing constructive to add

petee1997

"Judges dinged the M6 for being too heavy and unsettled in corners. Moreover, the car felt numb and isolating, like there was always a barrier between you and the road. Loh described it thus: "The M6 tunes out nearly every chassis response, and then tries to dial it back in to your liking." Ah, but there's a button for that, isn't there? Actually, there are about a hundred of them. The M6 offers a wide range of options for fine-tuning the car's various computers to dial in performance for any given situation. On its face, this seems like a good thing. In practice, you end up fiddling with settings forever. We calculated 125 possible combinations of throttle, suspension, transmission, and other settings. Somewhere around combination 26, you realize that none of them is really making the car much of a better driver's car, and you're just wasting time."[/QUOTE]

THIS IS WHAT THE WHOLE THREAD WAS ABOUT. It was to shut K-A up for once with the article from Motor Trend.

The BMW is a nice car, nothing more and nothing less. We are just tired of hearing the same BS over and over and over and over and over again. Maybe now now he can go preach to the choir on the BMW Forum to like minded people.

no_mulligan

"Probably roast tires"???? Come on. Sounds like you almost want to take the challenge? He offered $5K. Either man up or stand down. I have never heard of a burn out by math calculations!

RobbieRob

Sorry, to me, roasting of the tires is a holeshot smoking the tires 1st 2nd and 3rd all sideways and on the edge of out of control. My 550 won't do it, just 1st, 2nd and hooks up in 3rd.

K-A

EXACTLY. Fact is you have a bunch of guys who have inferior setups who bash the blatant engineering supreme values of the F10 because their cars can't do the same.

Guys it's clear by some of your ridiculous non acknowledgements of what the F10 is capable of that you haven't driven one or if you did, the cheap lease payment of the E350 on a value scale clouded your fair judgement.

FACT is, from someone who actually knows, there isn't one thing the E does better than the equivalent F10. F10 is 30% stiffer, feels like a sports car in comparison around corners whereas the W212 floats so much it feels like the chassis moves away from the wheels entirely, the 535i can ROAST the rear tires like a Muscle Car while the E350 with its punier torque and high peak torque range can not, the F10 is much more quiet, even with 19 RFTs and a superb M suspension it goes over bumps in a way the harsh E with just 18's can only wish, iDrive makes COMAND feel like Atari tech, the elegant widescreen makes the E screen look like a wristwatch, the interior being so close to the 7 makes the E feel excessively cheap, hard and plastic. The ZF 8 Speed is INCREDIBLE, the Mercedes 7G is on the other hand garbage. Tech on the Mercedes and how it's implemented is comparatively caveman esque.

The E350 V6 sounds generic and is coarse compared to the sublime sounding and immaculately smooth BMW I6, not to mention severely lacking in actual rear wheel horsepower. AND the 535i gets way better MPG to boot (seriously maybe instead of defending MB ask them WHY the competition can do so much more in so many more ways). As for the 550i it will now have 50 more HP over the soon extinct E550.

Even the moonroof on the F10 is larger and fully automated down to the cover piece, while the E you have to manually move the cover and the moonroof itself sounds loud and harsh when operating. Everything on the E is more analogue, the brake hold, the E brake, while fully electronic on the BMW.

Our F10 Sport mode is the REAL DEAL! It ACTUALLY makes the car feel infinitely more aggressive. Some of you here are so in denial you hilariously convince yourselves to believe that it isn't, i.e since your E Class sport mode is such a lazy joke with paddles that barely work (and feel/look dainty and cheap) you try and criticize the BMW of the same. You couldn't be more of a mark there, at least give credit where it's due.

The F10 actually scores better safety scores as well, taking away Mercedes' biggest historic advantage.

So yeah, keep convincing yourself that "more honest" is actually a compliment, E Classy, lol. That just means it threw in the towel.

And that my friends is the cold, hard truth.

K-A

Mine will spin through first and a little in second. If I turn the wheel and simply mash the gas, my car will get extremely sideways, full on drift. Never a powerbrake needed.

Petee: You make a thread about me, don't complain when my viewpoints are within. Simple logic. If you can't take the heat.... keep it cool.

And boo hoo. I rarely ever bring up BMW unless it's relative to the technical topic. I DO however constantly get BAITED into the topic then you sit there and complain, case in point this very thread. If you want to live in a walled garden as so many seem to, hence the hostility, then be my guest, but if you engage in the topic, expect to hear exactly just what I think.