dmighty

Okay great. . I'm next in line, let me know please

Thanks

dmighty

Will reach out to you after I have received and updated

yalej

Yep, will do.

Arrie

Ok you penny pinchers.

You all drive a $60 000+ car and you have to be circulating a navigation disk around to save some $150 or so yearly or bi-yearly... Are you guys serious????

Your behaviour is the reason why someone like MB would make it "no disk upgrade" and jack the price up. And who knows, when the navigation upgrade price goes to a whopping $350 it might keep some "low Byers" from buying these cars.

And yes, my post is intentionally made to offend you guys playing the very unethical game and it makes me think not to post for any help here any more as some of you low people would get the help you don't deserve.

Frankly I can't believe the moderator of this site allows the "disk swapping business" to go on in this site.

Fu...ng grow up people or buy a Corolla so you don't need to worry about the $250 navigation disk upgrade.

Makes me hope the original disk owner gets his navi data corrupted when he does not have the disks any more.

And I know there will be lots of opposing posts coming. Bring them on...

xoulu

I guess someone is mad they paid $250 for the upgrade?
You can start your own thread and please do not bomb my thread. My intention of the thread was to help anyone else who may of wanted to upgrade their Command system.


As for the Navi update
I got my disc off eBay for $50 and after the upgrade I don't need it. I would put it back up on eBay but wanted to see who else was interested as it would save me ebay fees and help out a forum member so if you don't like it then go put your 2 cents in your own thread. I understand where your coming from but is it a crime to try to save money by buying used or buying things people don't want? I know a few people who gets their map update disc out the country for less than $50 and the discs are just copied disc.

Again your opinion is your opinion, I don't call this disc swapping. Do you consider people who are selling their used disc on eBay or the forum disc swapping?

ddeliber

Ethics aside, thinking like this is why they set the ridiculous prices in the first place.

I can imagine the conversation in the sales/marketing offices....
How much should we charge for this, $150?
No way, our customers are stupid enough to handle $240.

To be honest, for the most part, the guys setting the prices are right. If we are stupid enough to pay "it" they would be even more stupid to not charge it. The question is would the acceptance rate go up enough if they made the price sufficiently meaningless (say $50 or $100) to offset the difference and I think it probably would. But then again I am not making those decisions so I don't know.

For me, the price is simply not worth it. In fact it is quite insulting actually. When I feel insulted, my first instinct is to try to screw them right back. What the hell guys, put me next on the list!

Arrie

Well there is a trooper. You started this thread as you was lost with your dealer asking you to pay for the Comand system update software. With others helping you (including me) you managed to get the updated software for free and now you are telling me to go away from your thread when I voice my opinion about something you are doing or started that I find very unethical???!!!???

You say:
"I understand where your coming from but is it a crime to try to save money by buying used or buying things people don't want?"

It is not a crime to try save money but it is a crime to sell copyrighted material if you don't own the copyright. I understand that the navigation update disk is copyrighted by the Navteq company and you or anybody else has no right to sell it used or new. You may have the right to give it away for free but not sell and it probably is prohibited to even let anybody else to use the disk. People selling this stuff on the eBay are breaking the law.

A lot of people don't understand that, for example, a used computer cannot "legally" be sold to someone else. Operating system in the computer is owned by it's maker, like Microsoft if it is a Windows system. You only buy a license to use it when you buy a computer and in the User Agreement, that nobody reads, it says that only you as the original owner own this right and for sure you cannot sell this right. This means that if you sell the computer it is fine but the new owner should go and buy the license again to use the operating system.

This same goes with basically all software. Some allow use in more than one computer but what ever the User Agreement says is what it should be but people break this law all the time and the copyright owners usually don't go after this unless it is a huge deal.

I'm quite sure the navigation disk user agreement says you cannot re-sell it and it probably says you cannot allow others to use it in their cars either.

Think if everybody went to do what you are doing. It would put all of these companies out of business who develop these great systems and nobody could get an update disk even when paying lots of money for it. What would your complain then be? That it sucks when you cannot get update disk for your navigation system and you are willing to pay $1000 for it?

Live Oak

Just to be a bit pedantic, although I agree with your points re: the nav update and some other software, in the case of Windows (your example), the software is licensed to the computer, not the user, per se:

" a. One Copy per Computer. The software license is permanently assigned to the computer with which the software is distributed. That computer is the “licensed computer.”"

"TRANSFER TO A THIRD PARTY. You may transfer the software directly to a third party only with the licensed computer. The transfer must include the software and the Certificate of Authenticity label."

And I will add, recently the licensing for Windows 7/8 installed in computers has changed so that there is no longer a Certificate of Authenticity attached to the computer for some manufacturers. The license number is now embedded in the computer BIOS.

And I will add further, in the case of Microsoft Office purchased at retail, you can transfer it with a computer, per se:

"Can I transfer the software to another computer or user? You may not transfer the software to another computer or user. You may transfer the software directly to a third party only as installed on the licensed computer, with the Certificate of Authenticity label and this agreement. Before the transfer, that party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software. You may not retain any copies."

dmighty

Why do you care. ...PERIOD!!!!!

yalej

Well, on a more constructive note, I received the DVD's from xoulu. I hope to install it this week, although I'm not sure sitting around in my car for 2.5 hours in the evening is the kind of fun I want to have...was hoping to do it on the weekend, but I am out this weekend and it took a long time to come from AK. Anyway, once I'm done I will contact the next person (dmighty?) and break the law and Arrie's heart.

yalej

I do not think this is the case. For $250 you can buy a very good, brand new hardware navigation system from TomTom or Garmin. That is physical hardware that will have the latest map update on it already. To think that a mere DVD with updated map information costs $250 is absurd. The price they set bears no relation to the cost of updating the data, which is minimal. It costs a lot because they can simply charge what they want and there is little competition; we have no other option but to use Navteq's map data.

Mercedes may be pricey, but there is direct competition with other brands, so although expensive, I feel the pricing structure is at least related to real market forces.

ddeliber

I'm not sure I am following you here. I said the pricing is absurd so yes we are on the same page here, and i never mentioned cost which would be about $0.06 plus the cost of packaging. This is not exactly fair because the real costs are in the data gathering which is probably an ongoing process.

My initial point (that you highlighted) was intended to focus on what people are willing to pay however they justify it to themselves ($60k car so $250 is nothing to me). Are you saying that if no-one buys it the lack of demand won't dictate a more reasonable price?

Live Oak

As the prices of navigation equipment are falling (actually crashing, right along with Garmin stock), Navteq, et al, are going to have to do some calculating re: price elasticity, which may mean an update price reduction could be in the offing --- or viewed another way, if Navteq is to survive in this business, they will have to increase product volumes, and to do that in this environment they will certainly have to reduce prices.

At least common sense says so . . .

dmighty

Thanks yalej, just give me a buzz

Arrie

Thanks Live Oak, It makes sense what you say.


I must have misunderstood the part of using the software in one computer as one "user" , which I thought was the owner of the computer and not the computer itself.


But the main thing in this topic I was talking about still stands. None of these "disk swappers" is sending their car with it to the next data upgrader...

Arrie

Don't worry about my heart. This will not break it. I just wish the update is one day made to be able to happen only at the MB dealer...it will surely cost more but at least it will be available...

Arrie

Because so few others do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PERIOD!!!

xoulu

I started the thread not because the dealer wanted me to pay, I started the thread because they were telling me it's not a software issue but a hardware issue. I was asking how everyone got their software updated and if they can advise me how I can get my software updated. I was also explaining the issue I was having. No one was really able to help me so I called multiple dealers asking if they have upgraded the command and one in WA happened to say they did so I reference my dealer to them.

As for breaking the law I don't think so as far as I know Selling the original DVD is perfectly legal unless you agree to a license agreement that explicitly states it can only be used on a unique VIN (clearly not the case here). IF the software has a unique license key, selling THAT would be illegal. What IS also illegal is making 100 copies of the DVD and then selling the copies. I went through their End User Terms and Conditions and here is what they have to say about reselling "You may not use or redistribute the Data solely for the purpose of revenue generation". I got it for $50 on eBay and selling it for what I got it for. So therefore I am not breaking the law (since the disc is the original DVD) nor Navteq's terms and conditions (not making any profit).

Arrie

Yes, you are right. It was not about the dealer asking money for the software update, they wanted a bit more with replacing the whole Comand unit. I kind of think that if nobody told you the software update can be done you never had gone to ask around the dealers if one has done it. I think this forum helped you with that.


Revenue generation is just one dollar. It does not matter if you paid for the disk and resell it for the same or less money. You are still generating revenue if you take money for the disk. It is just bad business if you don't make a profit or lose money in the process but this has nothing to do with the legality of the transaction. You sell it and it is against the terms.


Now, would they come after you because a half dozen people go for it, I don't think so but this is so low I would have never expected to see this happen in this forum as it has happened.

xoulu

Actually in fact I already knew that the update would fix the issue. I read multiple threads before posting but the OP of the threads never came back and updated on how they got theirs to be updated. So I was asking if anyone done it what was their process or if they can advise me which dealership they got it done at, I can call that dealership. No one ever responded so that made me call around.

Again Navteq does not say you can't resell the disc, please go read their terms and condition before you start making statements you can't back up. If you read further their terms and conditions it states that if you got the disc from someone else whose not a supplier they (Navteq) are not responsible for any damage of the data or damage done to your vehicle.

Here is something you may want to know...
Under the "first sale doctrine" of copyright law (US Code 17 USC 109), you can publicly display and sell your copy of a copyrighted work that you legally obtained. If the copy was bootleg when you got it, you cannot display or sell it. Refer to my second paragraph in my last post.

Got any issues please look up that copyright law.

Thank you

yalej

Think about it this way: someone paid full price for the DVD, $250 dollars. They then decide to put it up on ebay for $100. Someone buys it for $100. Now Navteq sues that person. What is their damages theory? Set aside anything in the T&C. How is Navteq damaged if they have already sold their product at full price? Do they get two bites at the Apple?

Suppose instead of a DVD they sell a book that has numbers that you manually punch into your nav system to update it. Can Navteq bar you from re-selling that book? If they can, can book publishers or authors prevent re-sale of used books? Could a library own that book and legally lend it out?

No one wants to deprive Navteq of their lawful income. Someone paid a price that Navteq accepted, and that is all the income they are entitled to. If people are not selling it for profit (and no one is), how is Navteq harmed? Be wary of deprived-of-sales theories, because those can be applied to any used good, including books and cars.

Arrie

"No one wants to deprive Navteq of their lawful income."


You post the above sentence and think nobody is doing anything wrong copying the same DVD over and over again.


Do you really think that if they sold only one update DVD for the navigation system and everybody owning the car it was made for would copy it and this company would stay in business? And you bought a MB E-class car!!!???


I really don't know what to say anymore on this issue.

dmighty

Yalej
DVD received, thank you.
Should be ready to ship by Tuesday

Who is next, Kapil.sap?

kapil.sap

dmightly I am next Sent you a pm.

Thanks

vivekbhatnagar

_