new 2015 Sonata copies MB steering wheel
04-18-2014, 04:55 AM
#26
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Firstly, Hyundai USED to copy M-B to a "T", looking like a cheap, poor mans imitation. Then M-B started playing the copy cat game, copying everyone from BMW (ripping off almost every design feature from previous gen Bimmers) to even Porsche on some upcoming cars (direct Cayenne air vents in the ML facelift, awkwardly shameless interpretation of a 991 rear, mixed with a BMW rear on the new S Coupe). In some ways, Hyundai's evolution of the days when they copied M-B and M-B's newest designs have gotten so close in some respects that in some cases, a'la W222 S, a lot of people think M-B has "copied Hyundai" on various bits and pieces.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
Last edited by K-A; 04-18-2014 at 05:02 AM.
04-18-2014, 01:29 PM
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AMG
Firstly, Hyundai USED to copy M-B to a "T", looking like a cheap, poor mans imitation. Then M-B started playing the copy cat game, copying everyone from BMW (ripping off almost every design feature from previous gen Bimmers) to even Porsche on some upcoming cars (direct Cayenne air vents in the ML facelift, awkwardly shameless interpretation of a 991 rear, mixed with a BMW rear on the new S Coupe). In some ways, Hyundai's evolution of the days when they copied M-B and M-B's newest designs have gotten so close in some respects that in some cases, a'la W222 S, a lot of people think M-B has "copied Hyundai" on various bits and pieces.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
Any word on w205 rigidity?
04-18-2014, 02:19 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
BMW...Design benchmark of the 21st century, good grief. Needless to say I stopped reading there. I knew better, I really did...my fault 
04-18-2014, 07:15 PM
#31
Senior Member
Hyundai has no problems creating stiff, rigid chassis. Where they consistently drop the ball is in their chassis tuning, the one area where the German car brands seem to get it right most of the time. Once the Koreans learn to master this dark art, their cars will be taken more seriously.
04-18-2014, 07:46 PM
#32
Bringing in Lotus this time for final suspension tuning was a smart move. Although they had to work from essentially KM production cars, Matthew Becker was able to make many adjustments and especially effect steering, which has plagued the cars previously. His work late last year appears to have paid off from the reviews.
04-18-2014, 07:50 PM
#33
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Not sure, but I'm very curious. The W222 S is about 40,500k nm's, so I'm assuming the C could be over 40K, as well as the next E (the W221 S was only 25K nm's, so you can see the huge difference the W222 has there).
Like it or not, it's a fact. M-B has copied BMW design up and down, to this day. The E65/E60 generation (as ugly as they are) were and still have been copied more than any design language in modern history. M-B stopped being copied after the W220 generation. Nowadays, Audi are the cool guys to copy off of, and we see many doing just that.
Like it or not, it's a fact. M-B has copied BMW design up and down, to this day. The E65/E60 generation (as ugly as they are) were and still have been copied more than any design language in modern history. M-B stopped being copied after the W220 generation. Nowadays, Audi are the cool guys to copy off of, and we see many doing just that.
04-18-2014, 09:31 PM
#34
Senior Member
Is there a point of diminishing returns re: rigidity?
Indeed, chassis tuning has been a Hyundai fail. I know someone who had a Genesis (which is a parallel universe E60 clone if there ever was one) - he loathed the suspension on it, and couldn't wait to get out of the car. Makes the dopey "sport" tuning in a W212 look a lot less hateful. A lot of car for the money, but close inspection sometimes reveals why the value is there.
Speaking of parallel universe, the K9 is indeed a BMW from one. I like the name change, to avoid the dog references. I just call it the "Canine Hundred"
Might sell to proud Korean expats and those of similar origin, along with bargain hunters and maybe some non-private use - National has already created a deal for the model.
New Sonata is a lot better to my eyes, more fake Audi instead of CLS wannabe. The overstyling on the current model aged poorly, and it is already harsh from some angles. Hyundai copies Audi because Hyunkia finally learned that KDM style panache can be awkward, and outside talent was needed, so they bought Schreyer.
W221 does have kind of a Bangle bustle, so I can see that - but I'd be hesitant to call the influence "up and down". Hell, if the CLS didn't exist, would the GranCoupe? Automotive design has become pretty derivative, and I suspect design schools are good for sycophants. It can sometimes be tough to tell who started what, especially things like HVAC vents. I also don't know any *credible* voices who claim MB has copied Hyundai. I was amused when the Lexus LS was a MB clone.
Indeed, chassis tuning has been a Hyundai fail. I know someone who had a Genesis (which is a parallel universe E60 clone if there ever was one) - he loathed the suspension on it, and couldn't wait to get out of the car. Makes the dopey "sport" tuning in a W212 look a lot less hateful. A lot of car for the money, but close inspection sometimes reveals why the value is there.
Speaking of parallel universe, the K9 is indeed a BMW from one. I like the name change, to avoid the dog references. I just call it the "Canine Hundred"
Might sell to proud Korean expats and those of similar origin, along with bargain hunters and maybe some non-private use - National has already created a deal for the model.New Sonata is a lot better to my eyes, more fake Audi instead of CLS wannabe. The overstyling on the current model aged poorly, and it is already harsh from some angles. Hyundai copies Audi because Hyunkia finally learned that KDM style panache can be awkward, and outside talent was needed, so they bought Schreyer.
W221 does have kind of a Bangle bustle, so I can see that - but I'd be hesitant to call the influence "up and down". Hell, if the CLS didn't exist, would the GranCoupe? Automotive design has become pretty derivative, and I suspect design schools are good for sycophants. It can sometimes be tough to tell who started what, especially things like HVAC vents. I also don't know any *credible* voices who claim MB has copied Hyundai. I was amused when the Lexus LS was a MB clone.
Last edited by fintail; 04-18-2014 at 09:34 PM.
04-18-2014, 10:56 PM
#35
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Is there a point of diminishing returns re: rigidity?
Indeed, chassis tuning has been a Hyundai fail. I know someone who had a Genesis (which is a parallel universe E60 clone if there ever was one) - he loathed the suspension on it, and couldn't wait to get out of the car. Makes the dopey "sport" tuning in a W212 look a lot less hateful. A lot of car for the money, but close inspection sometimes reveals why the value is there.
Speaking of parallel universe, the K9 is indeed a BMW from one. I like the name change, to avoid the dog references. I just call it the "Canine Hundred" Might sell to proud Korean expats and those of similar origin, along with bargain hunters and maybe some non-private use - National has already created a deal for the model.
New Sonata is a lot better to my eyes, more fake Audi instead of CLS wannabe. The overstyling on the current model aged poorly, and it is already harsh from some angles. Hyundai copies Audi because Hyunkia finally learned that KDM style panache can be awkward, and outside talent was needed, so they bought Schreyer.
W221 does have kind of a Bangle bustle, so I can see that - but I'd be hesitant to call the influence "up and down". Hell, if the CLS didn't exist, would the GranCoupe? Automotive design has become pretty derivative, and I suspect design schools are good for sycophants. It can sometimes be tough to tell who started what, especially things like HVAC vents. I also don't know any *credible* voices who claim MB has copied Hyundai. I was amused when the Lexus LS was a MB clone.
Indeed, chassis tuning has been a Hyundai fail. I know someone who had a Genesis (which is a parallel universe E60 clone if there ever was one) - he loathed the suspension on it, and couldn't wait to get out of the car. Makes the dopey "sport" tuning in a W212 look a lot less hateful. A lot of car for the money, but close inspection sometimes reveals why the value is there.
Speaking of parallel universe, the K9 is indeed a BMW from one. I like the name change, to avoid the dog references. I just call it the "Canine Hundred"
Might sell to proud Korean expats and those of similar origin, along with bargain hunters and maybe some non-private use - National has already created a deal for the model.New Sonata is a lot better to my eyes, more fake Audi instead of CLS wannabe. The overstyling on the current model aged poorly, and it is already harsh from some angles. Hyundai copies Audi because Hyunkia finally learned that KDM style panache can be awkward, and outside talent was needed, so they bought Schreyer.
W221 does have kind of a Bangle bustle, so I can see that - but I'd be hesitant to call the influence "up and down". Hell, if the CLS didn't exist, would the GranCoupe? Automotive design has become pretty derivative, and I suspect design schools are good for sycophants. It can sometimes be tough to tell who started what, especially things like HVAC vents. I also don't know any *credible* voices who claim MB has copied Hyundai. I was amused when the Lexus LS was a MB clone.
The *1st gen* CLS was indeed extremely revolutionary, however that is bundled into the W220 generation which was very much copied (i.e it was considered design leader). After the W221, M-B's didn't get copied anymore, as they started doing all the copying. The flared wheel arches were traced to Mazda, the iDrive knob was/is a complete BMW ripoff, the BMW like interior architecture to a "T", with the screen on the dash, the angular forms which BMW made famous again with the E60, the "Bangle Butt" trunk, etc. BMW made the distinctive corona rings famous, and M-B were years late to the headlight graphic-game, and tried to make up for lost time with multitudes of passé LED drl's of which they still haven't been able to find something that sticks. Then you have the LED rear light graphics, where BMW started the lava-light tubes years ago, and now M-B is, again, making up for lost time by overzealously incorporating it into their cars, years late. Even something like the W212 V2's rear diffuser, it's shaped like a less aggressive version of the F10 M Sports rear diffuser (lifted on each end), in fact, when the W212 V2 facelift was first shown, many said it looks like the E Class is trying to look close to an F10.
The entire interior setup of the W212, with the upright angularity and large, squared slabs of wood, is practically an evolution of the BMW E60 and E90 interiors, as when you look at the W211 and W210 interior, they bear absolutely no resemblance to the W212 interior.
Flame surfacing was "invented" by BMW, of which M-B started going crazy with, years later. Angled headlights that M-B went so crazy with, all looked like E60 evolutions rather than W220 gen evolutions. Even the C Coupe has an awkward interpretation of BMW's hofmeister kink.
The new S Coupe has a rear that looks questionably BMW (and Porsche) inspired, and completely rips off the 6 Series' camera coming out of the badge (of which BMW implemented very elegantly and M-B's take on it, far more crude with the badge popping open kind of awkwardly like a "lid".
Even M-B putting the Sport grille on all of their cars now was directly because their sticking to the "luxury" look with the standup Star, unfortunately started coming "passé" as BMW's sporty-inspired designs were becoming more and more of a benchmark.
Basically, you look at an M-B right now, and its styling gimmicks and various setups take far more from BMW's E65 gen then it does M-B's own W220 gen.
I agree with you about Hyundai/Kia as well. I do think the new Sonata looks pretty nice, a little less derivative than before, but still too derivative for me to credit them for their design talent (instead I'll credit the various manufacturers whom they copy off of).
The K900, like the 1st-gen Genesis, is indeed one of the most shameless of the plethora of BMW ripoff designs out there right now. It's unbelievable a company can have such little shame. The BMW shifter for one, unreal how they rip it off so closely (yet clearly it's of a less elegant execution). And it costs over $60K! Who the hell is gonna spend that on a Kia that looks like a poor mans imitation BMW?! Lol.
Last edited by K-A; 04-18-2014 at 11:09 PM.
04-19-2014, 12:42 AM
#36
Senior Member
Yes that's right, BMW gets credit for flame surfacing and the trend of bringing back the bustle, but I don't know if I can call a W212 interior derivative of the much swoopier E60 or even E90. W212 interior reminds me of a modern interpretation of W124, and that's one reason I like the pre-FL design. I don't like the softening of angles in the facelift, but I understand curves are the new MB direction. I wish a language could have been built from W221-212 angles, but it is what it is. W205 looks decent in some trims anyway. Chasing youth, even if it is a false pretense. Kind of like sport grilles on otherwise non sporty sedans. It's funny how MB tries to be sporty like BMW, while recent BMWs have been more isolating and conservative, as MB used to be. And to be on topic, I guess some other makers would be happy to be either.
C coupe upkick at C-pillar reminds me of Honda more than anything else - Lexus uses it too, as a way to add much needed character to greenhouse design.Is it really a hofmeister kink, which to me (and in history) is at a much steeper angle? Nah, it's just a stab at character. Not sure if I give the wheelarches to Mazda either, those have been happening for decades. Kind of silly on a luxobarge, but there's a sport aspiration again. W222 for all of its soft design, is now the clear leader in its segment, and does look amazing in the right trim, so all isn't lost. For lighting, I think MB is just afraid to follow fads or be seen as such - so they hesitate, then jump on when the market demands it. FWIW, MB was an early user of LED, just not the tubes of light look.
60-65K for the Canine or the now vintage looking Equus is a tough sell, when one can find a low mileage CPO prestige brand luxobarge for similar money.
[QUOTE=K-A;6013658]You make many good points which I agree with. I think there's a way to go before diminishing returns via torsional rigidity. I.e, the W212's chassis due to said dopey "Sport" suspension started to feel loosened up to me after some time. With proper suspension tuning (i.e as cars get more rigid, suspensions need to get more absorbing, otherwise you're gonna get a very harsh feel over bumps, a'la W212 "Sport" and Genesis).
C coupe upkick at C-pillar reminds me of Honda more than anything else - Lexus uses it too, as a way to add much needed character to greenhouse design.Is it really a hofmeister kink, which to me (and in history) is at a much steeper angle? Nah, it's just a stab at character. Not sure if I give the wheelarches to Mazda either, those have been happening for decades. Kind of silly on a luxobarge, but there's a sport aspiration again. W222 for all of its soft design, is now the clear leader in its segment, and does look amazing in the right trim, so all isn't lost. For lighting, I think MB is just afraid to follow fads or be seen as such - so they hesitate, then jump on when the market demands it. FWIW, MB was an early user of LED, just not the tubes of light look.
60-65K for the Canine or the now vintage looking Equus is a tough sell, when one can find a low mileage CPO prestige brand luxobarge for similar money.
[QUOTE=K-A;6013658]You make many good points which I agree with. I think there's a way to go before diminishing returns via torsional rigidity. I.e, the W212's chassis due to said dopey "Sport" suspension started to feel loosened up to me after some time. With proper suspension tuning (i.e as cars get more rigid, suspensions need to get more absorbing, otherwise you're gonna get a very harsh feel over bumps, a'la W212 "Sport" and Genesis).
04-19-2014, 07:48 AM
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Yes that's right, BMW gets credit for flame surfacing and the trend of bringing back the bustle, but I don't know if I can call a W212 interior derivative of the much swoopier E60 or even E90. W212 interior reminds me of a modern interpretation of W124, and that's one reason I like the pre-FL design. I don't like the softening of angles in the facelift, but I understand curves are the new MB direction. I wish a language could have been built from W221-212 angles, but it is what it is. W205 looks decent in some trims anyway. Chasing youth, even if it is a false pretense. Kind of like sport grilles on otherwise non sporty sedans. It's funny how MB tries to be sporty like BMW, while recent BMWs have been more isolating and conservative, as MB used to be. And to be on topic, I guess some other makers would be happy to be either.
C coupe upkick at C-pillar reminds me of Honda more than anything else - Lexus uses it too, as a way to add much needed character to greenhouse design.Is it really a hofmeister kink, which to me (and in history) is at a much steeper angle? Nah, it's just a stab at character. Not sure if I give the wheelarches to Mazda either, those have been happening for decades. Kind of silly on a luxobarge, but there's a sport aspiration again. W222 for all of its soft design, is now the clear leader in its segment, and does look amazing in the right trim, so all isn't lost. For lighting, I think MB is just afraid to follow fads or be seen as such - so they hesitate, then jump on when the market demands it. FWIW, MB was an early user of LED, just not the tubes of light look.
60-65K for the Canine or the now vintage looking Equus is a tough sell, when one can find a low mileage CPO prestige brand luxobarge for similar money.
C coupe upkick at C-pillar reminds me of Honda more than anything else - Lexus uses it too, as a way to add much needed character to greenhouse design.Is it really a hofmeister kink, which to me (and in history) is at a much steeper angle? Nah, it's just a stab at character. Not sure if I give the wheelarches to Mazda either, those have been happening for decades. Kind of silly on a luxobarge, but there's a sport aspiration again. W222 for all of its soft design, is now the clear leader in its segment, and does look amazing in the right trim, so all isn't lost. For lighting, I think MB is just afraid to follow fads or be seen as such - so they hesitate, then jump on when the market demands it. FWIW, MB was an early user of LED, just not the tubes of light look.
60-65K for the Canine or the now vintage looking Equus is a tough sell, when one can find a low mileage CPO prestige brand luxobarge for similar money.
Last edited by K-A; 04-19-2014 at 07:50 AM.
04-19-2014, 10:18 AM
#39
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04-19-2014, 10:36 AM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
04-19-2014, 10:44 AM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
Firstly, Hyundai USED to copy M-B to a "T", looking like a cheap, poor mans imitation. Then M-B started playing the copy cat game, copying everyone from BMW (ripping off almost every design feature from previous gen Bimmers) to even Porsche on some upcoming cars (direct Cayenne air vents in the ML facelift, awkwardly shameless interpretation of a 991 rear, mixed with a BMW rear on the new S Coupe). In some ways, Hyundai's evolution of the days when they copied M-B and M-B's newest designs have gotten so close in some respects that in some cases, a'la W222 S, a lot of people think M-B has "copied Hyundai" on various bits and pieces.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
Hyundai now seems to copy Audi, who's become (for some reason) the "nu nu" design benchmark, mixed with BMW, who've been the design benchmark of the 21st century, until now Audi has started to take their mojo.
As for Hyundai/Kia, I have no respect for their designs as they just steal others' work, complete second-rate, "poor mans version", and they'll never escape that until they start to develop their own identity. For the consumer, especially consumer on a budget, who doesn't mind driving a transparent "imitation" rather than the "original", it's a great deal.
All that said, Hyundai at least seems to be copying multiple makes now (M-B not being one of them, anymore, IMO, as if you notice, the automotive industry as a whole stopped copying M-B after M-B started losing their own design identity, several years ago), which might be a precursor to them developing their own look in the future.
The new Sonata looks pretty nice, the front very Ford, the side wannabe Audi (which is every ho-hum economy Sedan nowadays, they all look the same: Sonata, Fusion, etc.). The front looks very Ford. They traded the more avant-garde nature of the previous Sonata, for a more mature look, for sure.
Kia has become the worst offender with their horribly named "K900", which looks like a complete BMW ripoff inside and out. It's unreal how they can't get sued for literally swiping things like the trademark BMW shift knob, and implementing it, in a, again, imitative, poor-mans way.
As for rigidity, the W212 has a rigidity figure of 29,900k nm's, while Hyundai said to have benchmarked the F10 5's torsional rigidity of 37,500k nm's (which has practically been an industry benchmark since its launch, until the 6 Series stiffened that chassis up to an astonishing 43k nm's) with their new Genesis. Apparently the Genesis eeks out a slight gain over the F10's chassis rigidity (apparently somewhere just under, or just at around 40k nm's. So technically speaking, the Genesis is much more "solid" than the E. That said, Hyundai is notorious for putting up good spec's, but never coming through as good as the Germans in the real world, as their cars start to fall apart far more prematurely (including the previous Genesis which was also touted to be an attempted "German beater" of sorts). So it remains to be seen whether or not it'll actually *feel" and work as solidly as an M-B, especially after time. I'm curious what the Sonata's supposed torsional rigidity figure is.
I don't see anything between different German car brands to be similar. They all have distinctive look and I think in each corporation they take good care not to be blamed of copying by their domestic rivals.
What becomes in copying the MB car looks Lexus used to be the worst one. There still are plenty of older Lexus vehicles on the road that look exactly like MB from some distance. Hyundai is the newcomer in this and is doing a good job at that.
04-19-2014, 11:19 AM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
So it seems they all take each others good ideas. We decide what's good or better and purchase that and the others make changes to keep up. Cars, smartphones, clothes, etc.
Design is one thing but quality is another. Design makes most folks take notice but quality keeps most loyal and coming back.
How good does the seat material or dash trim look after a few years. Does it hold up to wear and tear. Design makes most folks take notice but quality keeps most loyal and coming back. If you look at enough used cars to get a wide sample, you can see the difference.
Design is one thing but quality is another. Design makes most folks take notice but quality keeps most loyal and coming back.
How good does the seat material or dash trim look after a few years. Does it hold up to wear and tear. Design makes most folks take notice but quality keeps most loyal and coming back. If you look at enough used cars to get a wide sample, you can see the difference.
04-19-2014, 02:59 PM
#44
I agree Hyundai has been copying other cars for years. But they have also made their mark for themselves. For example, the Hyundai 2.0 Turbo is one of the first engines i know that uses regular pump gas. Also, Hyundai Sonata's are very reliable. It would put some luxury makes to shame. And the 10 year 100k mile warrany is still best in the USA.
04-19-2014, 03:15 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
10/100 is powertrain only. Most Honda/Toyota dealers around here include a lifetime powertrain as a sales incentive. Main warranty is 5/60 but only 3/36 for electronics, paint and other stuff.
Genesis sedan v8 takes regular gas also. They are certainly giving Acura, Infiniti, etc fits.
Genesis sedan v8 takes regular gas also. They are certainly giving Acura, Infiniti, etc fits.
04-20-2014, 07:30 AM
#47
Super Member
Hyundai makes wonderful cars across their line but the Sonata, good as it is, is not a competitor with any Mercedes. However, the Genesis has the E class clearly in its sights and the Equus is even starting to sniff at the heels of the S class.
Mercedes has spent decades building excellent cars in the premium segment and have a loyal following among luxury buyers that will not be broken easily. Ditto BMW and even Audi who has started to do things even better than its fellow Germans. Certainly it will take a long, long time for a value oriented manufacturer like Kia or Hyundai to move into this segment no matter how good or how much value is in their cars. They should stick, at least initially, with trying to beat the likes of Infinity and Lexus. It is my opinion that Mercedes has nothing to fear from Hyundai for at least a decade.
Cadillac, on the other hand, has always been known as a luxury brand and therefore has a huge step up on Hyundai. Having Cadillac compared to the Germans will be much easier than a Hyundai comparison and it is Cadillac that will present Mercedes with their biggest challenge in the near future, especially with regards to the E class.
Although I do not own an E class (mine is a 2012 ML 350 SUV), I did drive a new Cadillac CTS sedan a couple months ago. This is the direct competitor to the E class and BMW 5 series. I will tell you this much - the CTS is one heck of an automobile in every respect. The value of the Genesis is certainly there but has nothing else to offer. The CTS can now rival Mercedes in many areas, including interior, exterior and drive train and at a price equal to or slightly below Mercedes.
The reason Cadillac can rival Mercedes up to the E class (the S class is secure and always will be) while Hyundai can not is not so much based on performance but it has a Crest in the grill that has always meant something special, just like the three pointed star. Genesis and Hyundai have nothing of the sort. That will make a Mercedes owner at least look at the Cadillac, while disregarding the Hyundai.
Mercedes has spent decades building excellent cars in the premium segment and have a loyal following among luxury buyers that will not be broken easily. Ditto BMW and even Audi who has started to do things even better than its fellow Germans. Certainly it will take a long, long time for a value oriented manufacturer like Kia or Hyundai to move into this segment no matter how good or how much value is in their cars. They should stick, at least initially, with trying to beat the likes of Infinity and Lexus. It is my opinion that Mercedes has nothing to fear from Hyundai for at least a decade.
Cadillac, on the other hand, has always been known as a luxury brand and therefore has a huge step up on Hyundai. Having Cadillac compared to the Germans will be much easier than a Hyundai comparison and it is Cadillac that will present Mercedes with their biggest challenge in the near future, especially with regards to the E class.
Although I do not own an E class (mine is a 2012 ML 350 SUV), I did drive a new Cadillac CTS sedan a couple months ago. This is the direct competitor to the E class and BMW 5 series. I will tell you this much - the CTS is one heck of an automobile in every respect. The value of the Genesis is certainly there but has nothing else to offer. The CTS can now rival Mercedes in many areas, including interior, exterior and drive train and at a price equal to or slightly below Mercedes.
The reason Cadillac can rival Mercedes up to the E class (the S class is secure and always will be) while Hyundai can not is not so much based on performance but it has a Crest in the grill that has always meant something special, just like the three pointed star. Genesis and Hyundai have nothing of the sort. That will make a Mercedes owner at least look at the Cadillac, while disregarding the Hyundai.
04-21-2014, 09:21 AM
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
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2012 S350 Bluetec 4Matic, Diamond White, P2
When you consider the gestation period for a new model to arrive, the development on the new Hyundai Genesis was well underway before the Audi A7 was debuted. BMW, MB, and Audi all share design elements. The automotive press seems to think that the new Genesis has finally given Hyundai a look all their own. I do not know if any manufacturer can claim anything is all their own. To be a real snot-nose, I could say that anything that has LED daytime running lights copied Audi, as they were the first. Like it or not, The new Gensis is a milestone vehicle. If offered with a diesel, I think I would buy one just to see. The only dig on this vehicle so far is that it is not as nimble as the BMW 5 series - the same dig is also levied against MB, Audi, and every single other vehicle on the road. I hope that MB, BMW, and Audi wake up and get their quality back up to snuff. According to the automotive press, Hyundai has already caught up with Infinity, Lexus, and Acura, something that folks a lot smarter than me said would never happen. Never say never.
04-21-2014, 11:30 AM
#49
Senior Member
Thread Starter
The big factor that puts ppl in a Genesis over a mb or BMW is the reliability.
The Germans can build the best driving car. But if it costs $3k to repair per year after warranty. And $2k for a brake pad job at the dealer etc etc then people have to dump it and lose a lot of money in depreciation in 3 - 4 years.
They **** ppl off with this reliability and cost of maintenance and next time ppl buy a Hyundai or lexus.
Cadillac does not have that level of reliability yet either.
The Germans can build the best driving car. But if it costs $3k to repair per year after warranty. And $2k for a brake pad job at the dealer etc etc then people have to dump it and lose a lot of money in depreciation in 3 - 4 years.
They **** ppl off with this reliability and cost of maintenance and next time ppl buy a Hyundai or lexus.
Cadillac does not have that level of reliability yet either.
