CEB

The German TV station ZDF reported last night that a German Environmental organization enlisted the help of the Basel Technical University to test emissions of MB, BMW, Opel and Renault diesels. All four showed levels exceeding the stated limits.

MB and BMW are vehemently denying that they installed cheating software so we'll see where this goes.

In a related action, criminal proceedings have been instituted against Bosch for the development of the software.

Munich77

Yikes that sounds like big problems if it is true

CEB

There will be a lot more to come. The European Central Bank is currently investigating if loans given to VW to develop clean diesels were mismanaged.

It seems as if VW was only the tip of the iceberg.

DerekACS

The report to which you are referring was initiated by DUH, a German environmental lobby group, hardly an unbiased source !!! The MB that they claim to have tested in real world driving was a 2011 W204 with a CDI engine. All Euro emissions testing and certifications are based on laboratory tests, not real world driving conditions.

Daimler has requested pertinent details for the so-called test of the W204, but DUH has refused to provide any information to the company.

As for the credibility of this DUH lobby group, the DAX dismissed them today with Daimler stock values climbing by 3.5%.

CEB

Today, the Umweltbehoerde (the German environmental agency), along with the DUH, called for the elimination of tax incentives on diesel and recommended that diesel be taxed like gasoline. The DUH isn't as much of a tree hugging lobby group as you make them out to be.

Diesels will fall under further scrutiny and it'll be interesting to watch the fallout.

Many factors influence the value of a stock and you'd need to see if there were other factors that caused the value of Daimler to go up.

fintail

More taxes to pay for funds directed to the healthy salaries and perks of environmental firm leaders? It's not like DUH and the others aren't on the dole, right? It's definitely not an unbiased source. I am sure their refusal to provide data is completely benign, too. In all of this, one must think of the money trail - if it was really a disaster, the bleeding hearts who have done so much for mankind wouldn't be happy with simple tax changes.

We haven't had the CDIs in NA for some time, so it won't matter here.

Wolfman

I find the title of the thread misleading at best.

As stated by the OP, emission values by any car manufacturer (Diesel or Gas) has never been based on real life scenarios but on best case scenarios.
Nothing new, I can see that I am not getting the stated fuel consumption every time I am filling up the car

But that is a very different scenario than the VAG cheating tests with engine software to detect and deliberately alter test results.

I am sure VAG (VW, Audi, Porsche, etc.) are wishing/begging/hoping to find any manufacturer that has done the same but as it stands, they will end up being the only ones that cheated like that.

Germancar1

In short, NO they aren't. MB doesn't use a cheat device.

M

Airmousam

I thought the same thing, was wondering if the OP worked for TMZ

CEB

What is misleading? The ZDF program clearly raised the question if MB, BMW, Renault and Opel installed software to modify the results of the tests.


There is too much incest in the automotive industry for this to be limited to VAG.


Time will tell.

fintail

I'd be more likely to get excited about a new car being tested than a 4-5 year old car with heaven knows what history being called a cheater, too.

Arrie

The problem is with VAG not paying the license fee to MB for using the Patented "Add Blue" system like some other car manufacturers like BMW does. Instead they claimed they have their own system. We now know what that system is.

rufmb

Even if they are cheating, they will solve the problem by identifying and quickly firing the 2 Indian programmers who developed the software. Move along everyone, problem solved, nothing to see here.

It is amazing that the VW affair wasn't discovered sooner by testing agencies and competitors - it's not like they reworked the diesel engine design from the ground up; even their management didn't ask questions, for example how the batch of cars baked in October suddenly produced a lot better mileage/performance than the ones coming out of the same oven in September?

Wolfman

Who cares if a TV channel raises a question? That doesn't create credibility.

As stated above, MB developed Blutec (along with Bosch I think) and VW were too cheap to do it right and just cheated.

It will most likely be limited to VAG...

Johnny Rad

My feeling is otherwise. No, I don't have any evidence or proof.

The stakes are just too high. There's too much $ involved. It's a recipe for bending the rules, pushing the envelope and unfortunately outright cheating.

Time will tell.

PeterUbers

This conspiracy likely goes straight to the Oval Office ... And Area 51....

looney100

Spot on Arrie!

VW said they could get Ad-Blue-like NOx r duct ions without using Ad-Blue. The two ways you can do this are by detaining the car so as to produce fewer NOx emissions causing performance to suffer, or using extra fuel instead of Ad-Blue to clean out the accumulated NOx collected in the catalytic converter - which kills fuel economy. VW programmed the cars to do this only when it determined it was being tested, and not in real world conditions.

MB very clearly uses Ad-Blue, so it shouldn't be caught up in is.

CEB

Except of course that the cars on stop sale right now are those that use Adblue. The only current model VW's in the US that don't use Adblue was the Golf. Both the Passat and Touareg use urea injection.

DerekACS

You are misinformed on the US spec VWs. MY2016 Golf TDI for sale in the USA and Canada all have Adblue tanks.

You are correct is saying the stop sale order applies to these cars as well as all other MY2016 VW TDI models (Jetta, Passat, Touareg) in the USA and Canada.

CEB

Ahhh, I knew the 14's didn't have urea injection - that's when I was looking at them and trying to understand why the Golf had no urea injection while the Jetta and the Passat did.

Interesting to know that they added that in recent models.

ddeliber

The issue I have with this is that VW was the only manufacturer that actually sold cars with the LNT system (lean nox trap - alternative to the urea injection systems). No one else could get it to work. If you wanted to sell some piece of tech on your car but couldn't get it to work wouldn't you go get one from the competition and see what they did?

I believe that every other manufacturer knew about this cheat. why didn't someone spill the beans? Perhaps they all have something to hide as well? It is not like they needed to be the target or retribution, they could have stayed out of it with say an anonymous letter or "sponsor" some somewhat "independent" research. These cars have been on the road since 2008 (2009 MY). IMO that is a ridiculously long time for a cheat of this magnitude to be working.

Mike450

Big +1

The news of this certainly didn't knock any German automotive engineer off his stool.

It was widely know these VW's easily exceeded their EPA numbers, for years.
We have a 2014 Passat and easily scored 50mpg by the tank on road trips without even trying and 38-40 around town, both well above EPA numbers.


Not saying MB or BMW cheated also, but they had to know something was up. **** like that doesn't go unnoticed by your cross town rival.

pwj77

I certainly hope that MB is not involved. Several facts would support that they are not: 1) MB actually has a large AdBlue tank (which is why the E250 has no spare tire), and it does get used up, 2) VW diesel owners tell me that they have small tanks that rarely get refilled.
So, while not conclusive, this does support MB. The AdBlue technology does work - it's just that VW uses software to turn it off under normal conditions.

Nuru

I am thinking that MB is not involved, as PwJ77 is saying the MB Ad BLUE tanks and usage is large. We S-Class owners have a space saving spare and a large AD-Blue tank. However, I can get a full sized spare in the trunk.

DerekACS

You are correct. The VW 2.0L TDI has a 19 L tank, while the E250 2.1L Bluetec has a 28 L tank, or 47% greater volume of urea for a similar size engine ! The urea tank in both cars is supposed to last for 10,000 mile service intervals. It's obvious that the VW diesel uses far less urea/mile than the MB diesel. Why ? VW cheats !!!