C300 Loaner
03-10-2016, 03:54 PM
#51
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W204 C63 AMG, W212 E250 CGI, C207 E250 CGI
^ho-hum, just when i thought this guy cant be more boring...
he doesnt like JD Power coz his hyundai doesnt come out ahead of MB. he only likes to see reports that has the answers he wants to see. what an idiot.
he doesnt like JD Power coz his hyundai doesnt come out ahead of MB. he only likes to see reports that has the answers he wants to see. what an idiot.
03-10-2016, 04:51 PM
#52
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To try to make peace, can we agree that the C300 is way better than any Dodge.
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El Cid (03-11-2016)
03-11-2016, 04:46 PM
#54
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03-12-2016, 10:20 AM
#55
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Personally I never have liked JD Power even though I have often been one of those "surveyed." They seem to have so many qualifiers that almost any product can win an award for something.
The JD Power study you referenced is for 33,560, 2013 vehicles.
Consumer Reports ranked MB below Hyundai in predicted reliability in 2015 and 2016. Predicted reliability is based on reliability reporting by owners for past several years. While there are limitations to CR, it does survey owners of 740,000 vehicles up to 15 years old. One caution about CR if you check out the April issue. To determine who makes the best cars, they combine reliability, CR's road-test score, predicted reliability and % of each makes' models CR recommended purchasing. They have some picky reasons to not recommend some cars.
TreuDelta.com shows MB significantly below Hyundai for 2013-2015.
As for the dealerships, the prestige brands are nicer in the amenities they offer. I was speaking of the newness, cleanliness and other aspects of the buildings. I do not avail myself of the coffees, WiFi, and other items so those things don't interest me.
Perhaps we are misinterpreting each other as regards Hyundai's luxury brand/dealerships. Before you can have a luxury dealership, you have to have a separate luxury brand. Up until now, Hyundai has not had that. The new Genesis brand will do that. They do currently have limitations on which dealers can sell and service the Equus, but that is something else.
There are a lot of considerations before a corporation can launch a separate division/brand. They have to consider the relationships with existing dealerships, the financial soundness of a stand alone luxury dealership and many other things.
But we could have a whole separate thread on comparing and contrasting luxury makes and how to establish them.
The JD Power study you referenced is for 33,560, 2013 vehicles.
Consumer Reports ranked MB below Hyundai in predicted reliability in 2015 and 2016. Predicted reliability is based on reliability reporting by owners for past several years. While there are limitations to CR, it does survey owners of 740,000 vehicles up to 15 years old. One caution about CR if you check out the April issue. To determine who makes the best cars, they combine reliability, CR's road-test score, predicted reliability and % of each makes' models CR recommended purchasing. They have some picky reasons to not recommend some cars.
TreuDelta.com shows MB significantly below Hyundai for 2013-2015.
As for the dealerships, the prestige brands are nicer in the amenities they offer. I was speaking of the newness, cleanliness and other aspects of the buildings. I do not avail myself of the coffees, WiFi, and other items so those things don't interest me.
Perhaps we are misinterpreting each other as regards Hyundai's luxury brand/dealerships. Before you can have a luxury dealership, you have to have a separate luxury brand. Up until now, Hyundai has not had that. The new Genesis brand will do that. They do currently have limitations on which dealers can sell and service the Equus, but that is something else.
There are a lot of considerations before a corporation can launch a separate division/brand. They have to consider the relationships with existing dealerships, the financial soundness of a stand alone luxury dealership and many other things.
But we could have a whole separate thread on comparing and contrasting luxury makes and how to establish them.
I had a 2008 Lexus GS350 AWD a while back, CR gave the RWD version of the car 5 stars but the AWD version got low ratings. The reason given was due to the AWD mechanical issues, as most owners of the 3rd gen. GS knows, there was no wide spread AWD problem. The problem was with the chassis and the dashboard mounting which tend to rattle squeak which CR miss completely on their testing or surveys.
03-12-2016, 10:37 AM
#56
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2010 E350 Luxury Sedan, Engine 272 (V6)
Not exactly
If I need a toaster oven or a vacuum cleaners, Consumer Report is the best place to look. If I need a buy a car, CR's survey is bias due to the fact they only survey CR subscribers. Chances are there are 10 CR subscribers who own Toyotas to one CR subscriber who owns a Mercedes. As we all know, a small sample size equals to a bigger percentage of error. J D Power's survey is random and much more accurate. Years ago, CR would just automatically give Toyota high rating without testing, once it this practice was made public, they change it.
I had a 2008 Lexus GS350 AWD a while back, CR gave the RWD version of the car 5 stars but the AWD version got low ratings. The reason given was due to the AWD mechanical issues, as most owners of the 3rd gen. GS knows, there was no wide spread AWD problem. The problem was with the chassis and the dashboard mounting which tend to rattle squeak which CR miss completely on their testing or surveys.
I had a 2008 Lexus GS350 AWD a while back, CR gave the RWD version of the car 5 stars but the AWD version got low ratings. The reason given was due to the AWD mechanical issues, as most owners of the 3rd gen. GS knows, there was no wide spread AWD problem. The problem was with the chassis and the dashboard mounting which tend to rattle squeak which CR miss completely on their testing or surveys.
Having 10 Toyota owners to 1 MB owner is a reflection of the general population. In fact, you probably have a higher percentage of MB owners responding to the CR surveys than the ratio of Toyota to MB owners in general population.
As for the Lexus GS before the most recent version, it was universally panned by many for many issues.
Their surveys are based on what the actual owners report. So if the CR said it was AWD mechanical issues, that is the way the reports were completed by the actual owners.
So their sample size is more than adequate. I have completed surveys for both CR and JD Power and found CR's to be much more detailed. I also complete information for True Delta.
03-12-2016, 01:23 PM
#57
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"In fact, you probably have a higher percentage of MB owners responding to the CR surveys than the ratio of Toyota to MB owners in general population."
You just can't pull "probably" (maybe, perhaps, etc.) out of thin air to support your argument. So let's go to the Consumer Reports web site for their ratings information.
http://www.consumerreports.org/used-...-avoid-buying/
Used Cars to Avoid Buying
Steer clear of these clunker used cars, which have below-average reliability
By Jon Linkov
Last updated: March 11, 2016
These 2006-15 models have a record of below-average overall reliability. They’re listed alphabetically by make and model. The worst used cars are shown in bold italics; they’re models with much-worse-than-average overall reliability based on multiple years of data. We recommend skipping all of them.
Use the pull-down menu to view car models by brand.
The Worst of the Worst
BMW
5 Series
2006-2008, 2010-2012, 2015
Hyundai
Genesis
2010, 2012
Mercedes-Benz
C-Class
2012, 2015
These are just some highlights. Go to the link and peruse for yourself. Three things are worth mentioning. The BMW 5 Series is in bold italics. The Mercedes E Class is NOT on the list of used cars to be avoided. Good news for all us CPO owners. I listed the C Class only because of the origin of this thread. And, third, Lexus (nor Toyota, for that matter) is not on the list at all.
What does all this mean? It means you should research before buying, and then buy whatever you want regardless.
You just can't pull "probably" (maybe, perhaps, etc.) out of thin air to support your argument. So let's go to the Consumer Reports web site for their ratings information.
http://www.consumerreports.org/used-...-avoid-buying/
Used Cars to Avoid Buying
Steer clear of these clunker used cars, which have below-average reliability
By Jon Linkov
Last updated: March 11, 2016
These 2006-15 models have a record of below-average overall reliability. They’re listed alphabetically by make and model. The worst used cars are shown in bold italics; they’re models with much-worse-than-average overall reliability based on multiple years of data. We recommend skipping all of them.
Use the pull-down menu to view car models by brand.
The Worst of the Worst
BMW
5 Series
2006-2008, 2010-2012, 2015
Hyundai
Genesis
2010, 2012
Mercedes-Benz
C-Class
2012, 2015
These are just some highlights. Go to the link and peruse for yourself. Three things are worth mentioning. The BMW 5 Series is in bold italics. The Mercedes E Class is NOT on the list of used cars to be avoided. Good news for all us CPO owners. I listed the C Class only because of the origin of this thread. And, third, Lexus (nor Toyota, for that matter) is not on the list at all.
What does all this mean? It means you should research before buying, and then buy whatever you want regardless.
Last edited by Cao Black; 03-12-2016 at 01:35 PM.
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Airmousam (03-12-2016)
03-12-2016, 05:03 PM
#58
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While I disagree with some CR road test ratings (Tesla S primarily), they do not automatically give high ratings to any cars. They never rate a car without testing it first and it is a very extensive, long-term procedure. Their reliability reports (different from ratings) are based on surveys of over 700,000 actual owners. They also have a minimum number of reponses required before they post data. Probably way above what JD Power requires (if any).
Having 10 Toyota owners to 1 MB owner is a reflection of the general population. In fact, you probably have a higher percentage of MB owners responding to the CR surveys than the ratio of Toyota to MB owners in general population.
As for the Lexus GS before the most recent version, it was universally panned by many for many issues.
Their surveys are based on what the actual owners report. So if the CR said it was AWD mechanical issues, that is the way the reports were completed by the actual owners.
So their sample size is more than adequate. I have completed surveys for both CR and JD Power and found CR's to be much more detailed. I also complete information for True Delta.
Having 10 Toyota owners to 1 MB owner is a reflection of the general population. In fact, you probably have a higher percentage of MB owners responding to the CR surveys than the ratio of Toyota to MB owners in general population.
As for the Lexus GS before the most recent version, it was universally panned by many for many issues.
Their surveys are based on what the actual owners report. So if the CR said it was AWD mechanical issues, that is the way the reports were completed by the actual owners.
So their sample size is more than adequate. I have completed surveys for both CR and JD Power and found CR's to be much more detailed. I also complete information for True Delta.
Here is a link to Consumer Report's favoritism toward Toyota:
"In the past, because Toyota (Charts) products have so consistently proved reliable, the magazine would assume at least average reliability for Toyota's brand new cars, without waiting for survey data from owners."
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/16/auto...ce=yahoo_quote
Thanks for reminding me and adding to the Consumer Report's list of highly rated cars that blew up in their face, I almost forgot about the whole CR Tesla mess. You do realized that CR's minimum survey size is only a 100 CR subscribers, which is hardly a valid survey in my opinion, JD power's min. survey size is 250 randomly selected and unbiased participants. Of CR's 100 bias subscribers, I doubt there are many CR subscribers who own Mercedes, I bet most of them are more budget oriented, view cars as an appliance and prefer to own cars like Toyota, Honda or a Prius.
Last edited by The G Man; 03-12-2016 at 05:35 PM.
03-12-2016, 05:37 PM
#59
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OK, some of you do not like CR. So use it or not. However, it is a very accurate and reliable source.
Incidentally 100 responses for a 2014 MB E Class is a pretty significant number. 100 is the minimum number of reports/responses per make/model/year.
Their road test results have proven wrong at times. BUT we are talking about reliability here, not road-tests.
They tell you very cleary that expected reliability is based on past performance over several years. Past performance is a pretty good indication of future performance.
Therefore, Toyota and Lexus are rated highly because the cars are among the most reliable sold in America according to ALL sources. That is why they sell so well.
CR gave very, very high scores to both Tesla S and new MB S, but these are based on actual road-test over thousands of miles and reports from a variety of individuals. However, neither model has held up well in realiability reporting from owners.
CR surveys 750,000 vehicles; JD Powers surveys 33,000. The minimum size for CR is 100-there could be a thousand responses for a specific make/model/year.
Incidentally 100 responses for a 2014 MB E Class is a pretty significant number. 100 is the minimum number of reports/responses per make/model/year.
Their road test results have proven wrong at times. BUT we are talking about reliability here, not road-tests.
They tell you very cleary that expected reliability is based on past performance over several years. Past performance is a pretty good indication of future performance.
Therefore, Toyota and Lexus are rated highly because the cars are among the most reliable sold in America according to ALL sources. That is why they sell so well.
CR gave very, very high scores to both Tesla S and new MB S, but these are based on actual road-test over thousands of miles and reports from a variety of individuals. However, neither model has held up well in realiability reporting from owners.
CR surveys 750,000 vehicles; JD Powers surveys 33,000. The minimum size for CR is 100-there could be a thousand responses for a specific make/model/year.
03-12-2016, 06:11 PM
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03-13-2016, 10:54 AM
#63
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Response like that really does not suppose your position. Anyboby who knows anything about statistics should know that the relationship between margin of error and sample size is simple: As the sample size increases, the margin of error decreases.
03-13-2016, 11:12 AM
#64
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Not relevant
Regardless, a larger sample size does not necessarily increase reliability and validity. It just increases the sample size and lowers margin of error. Does not mean that there is an error though.
A sample size of 100 for one year of one model of one make of car can be just as valid and reliable as a sample size of 69,000 (number of E Classes sold in US in 2013).
True enough that surveying all 69,000 owners would make for a more accurate report, but that is not ever going to happen.
CR still has the largest sample size per model/make/year. So using your theory, CR's reports are more accurate than anyone else's.
03-13-2016, 11:31 AM
#65
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Did you mean "suppose" or support?
Regardless, a larger sample size does not necessarily increase reliability and validity. It just increases the sample size and lowers margin of error. Does not mean that there is an error though.
A sample size of 100 for one year of one model of one make of car can be just as valid and reliable as a sample size of 69,000 (number of E Classes sold in US in 2013).
True enough that surveying all 69,000 owners would make for a more accurate report, but that is not ever going to happen.
CR still has the largest sample size per model/make/year. So using your theory, CR's reports are more accurate than anyone else's.
Regardless, a larger sample size does not necessarily increase reliability and validity. It just increases the sample size and lowers margin of error. Does not mean that there is an error though.
A sample size of 100 for one year of one model of one make of car can be just as valid and reliable as a sample size of 69,000 (number of E Classes sold in US in 2013).
True enough that surveying all 69,000 owners would make for a more accurate report, but that is not ever going to happen.
CR still has the largest sample size per model/make/year. So using your theory, CR's reports are more accurate than anyone else's.
You are basically repeat yourself on points that we have already refuted. A smaller percentage of error is mean that the survey is more reliable. Going with your train of thought, a sample of one person can be accurate as well, but the percentage of error is 50%. CR has large sample of Asian car owners, which is what most of their subscribers are. CR's auto ratings has been proven time and time again to be inaccurate.
03-13-2016, 12:48 PM
#66
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That is true. But everything is relative to what car you are currently driving. If you are returning from an S class, obviously an E class loaner feels like a POS. I saw some similar threads in the W222 section recently. All these cars are at different price and luxury levels. That has to be respected in order not to get frustrated. 
.
.I think that the W212 particularly the 2010-2011 E350 Luxury is a wonderful car to drive.
I am keenly interested in this because I don't want to buy a W212 before W213 comes out because of the depreciation hit but hate the ipad in the W205
03-13-2016, 12:56 PM
#67
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I certainly agree with that statement, Hyundai do not age well. A friend at work has a 5 year old Hyundai Santa Fe that rattles like a 20 year old Oldsmobile. It has more leaks in the engine than the Holland dam. Almost every piece of interior material is either worn or damage. I have seen 20 year Mercedes that are in better shape.
03-13-2016, 01:08 PM
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I had a c300 loaner recently and I get the appeal... The non amg sport version looks terrible from the outside... The interior has that initial appeal until you see how cheese the plastic accoutrements are. Don't like the iPad
I disagree with some of the car rags that stated the c class makes you feel you're in a car costing twice as much
For the money I think it's reasonable but agree with above comment at that previous gen c class seemed built better and more Benz
I disagree with some of the car rags that stated the c class makes you feel you're in a car costing twice as much
For the money I think it's reasonable but agree with above comment at that previous gen c class seemed built better and more Benz
Last edited by MBNUT1; 03-13-2016 at 01:39 PM.
03-13-2016, 02:58 PM
#69
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As the old saying goes " they dont make them like they use to" is somewhat true. Alloys now a days are more rust resistance than ever but all the electronics has a finite life. The bean counters at Mercedes and all other luxury brands with all their cost cutting measures has also taken a toll in material quality. The easy answer to your question is yes, the new Mercedes will last longer than the old Mercedes, but it will cost you a lot more in maintenace, repairs and part replacement to make it last.
03-13-2016, 06:19 PM
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Agreeing with me at last
You are agreeing with Consumer Reports indication of MB reliability as low.
Where did you come up with the sources that "CR has large sample of Asian car owners, which is what most of their subscribers are."
Also, where did you come up with "CR's auto ratings has been proven time and time again to be inaccurate."
03-13-2016, 07:24 PM
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03-13-2016, 07:41 PM
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probably with broken window and missing body panel on it too.
But what I do see is a good number of early 2000 MB in my neighborhood, like the first gen CLK, the C32, they're not showroom quality but they're running and being use as DD.
03-13-2016, 08:45 PM
#73
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Heck I don't even remember when's the last time I saw a 10 yrs old Hyundai,
probably with broken window and missing body panel on it too.
But what I do see is a good number of early 2000 MB in my neighborhood, like the first gen CLK, the C32, they're not showroom quality but they're running and being use as DD.
probably with broken window and missing body panel on it too.
But what I do see is a good number of early 2000 MB in my neighborhood, like the first gen CLK, the C32, they're not showroom quality but they're running and being use as DD.
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El Cid (03-14-2016)
03-14-2016, 10:06 AM
#74
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Hyundai built bad cars 30 years ago. But my daughter drives a 2004 Santa Fe with 178,000 mile on it and it may last twice that long. Just needs maintenance, nothing has failed. There are many 10+ years old Santa Fe's on the road in Georgia, I see at least 5 or 6 a day around Athens, GA. However, the quality of interior materials and paint on Mercedes is far above that of Hyundai.
Reliability is important in my car buying decision, but it is not my top priority anymore. The auto industry as a whole have made some big leaps in reliability the last 10 years or so. Buying a car due to reliability rating is becoming less and less of a factor.
