hyperion667

I came out of a S40 Volvo when I got my first W212.......and I noticed the seats were no where near as comfortable.......a seat cushion sounds like a good idea, I wish I would have thought of that lol

BlueFlash

I'm 5'10 and 160 and find the leather cooled (non dynamic) seats very comfortable. Comfort is so subjective and depends on many variables, including body types and pre existing medical issues. Also, I'm sure every seat is constructed somewhat differently, foam might have different attributes, etc). Are there more comfortable seats out there's? Prolly, but they could probably be found in domestic autos.

nc211

Back when I was 5"10 and 160lbs (oh the memories), this would probably not bother me either. But today, 10 years and 40lbs (let's just say that) later, the seat's bucket frame edge is basically the support of the seat. I am very hopeful next week will resolve the issue to satisfactory levels. I am thinking that if an aftermarket seat pad laid on top of the seat can help, then basically installing one under the seat cover will too. The center support of the seat needs more strength in my opinion, to raise it up, and a little more padding on that rear edge of the frame where it approaches the seat's back support component.

We shall see, fingers are crossed!

nc211

I've always taken a hand towel from the bathroom inventory at home and placed one in each glovebox of our cars. They come in handy.

Tonight before getting in the car for my 25
mile cruise home, I took the towel (basic 8x11 ish sized towel), folded it once longways, set it in the midle section of the seat near the back, where we seem to find the most discomfort. If a simple hand towel can make such a huge improvement, then I am very confident a little extra padding stuffed under the seat cover is indeed going to provide some much needed relief! Basically, this revealed what I suspected initially as the core problem here - there is just not enough support in the center section of the seat to keep my hips from basically riding on the frame's bolster rails. If anything, I'll just take a friggin bath towel, fold it properly, remove the seat cover, lay it across the top center section, and put the seat cover back on! But I suspect the repair shop's method will yield better results. At least for my situation. If it indeed does fix it, then I'm going to have the passenger side done too. I'm a lot more optimistic now after this little experiment than I was before.

baybombers

Volvo seats are among the best, IMO. Although my S 80 could use a little more side bolster.

Arrie

Yes, MB has fixed this issue. Just buy a S- class. And Im not kidding either.

Tump43

I installed the nappa leather multicontour front and folding rear seats from a 2010 E63 with 35k miles. Very comfortable, even on long 3.5 hour drives. No issues. Haven't had the multicontour/massage aspect hooked up yet(not easy) have all the parts though). At least everything else works just like stock.

nc211

Ok, got the car back this afternoon after dropping off at upholstery shop. We're definitely on the right track here to fix this, and learned something about these specific seats from the guys. These folks are who the dealerships in my area send their seat, upholstery work to via warranty claims. In the shop this morning, a current style 911, new Range Rover, and a Lexus LX. This afternoon when I picked it up, Porsche Macon and MB GL550. So, they know this stuff pretty well.

they focused on the center area of the seat and added about an extra inch of foam padding. Said the side bolster area is just too tight under the seat cover for anything meaningful. I was disappointed to hear that. However the seat does feel a lot better now.

BUT, he then commented that maybe we can cut the wire. Wait...wire? What wire?

Apparently all along the side bolster padding of these seats, inside of the actual foam, is a thick gauge tension wire. I asked him to point to where it is, and wouldn't you know it....bullseye at both places of complaint. Pressing down on the seat in that area, it now may make sense why we "think" it's the actual frame's edge poking up, when in fact it very well might be this tension wire. Would explain why when you push down hard on that area, it feels like it has a little bit of "give" it in.

So, definitely made significant progress today with just lifting up the center area, and will know more later after I've had some time to drive it, but I am really curious about this wire. He had several other seat pads laying around from other brands, showed me Porsche, Jag, etc, where the their side boltster are dense foam. Said in my car, not as much foam so the wire is there instead to keep the side bolster shape. Said it's a stupid design flaw, not a safety issue to cut it, but not sure of long term durability of seat maintaining shape. Considering none of this really costs all that much, I am very inclined to cut that wire!

Darel

Interesting! I wonder what would happen to the overall shape of the seat long-term?

nc211

I'm not sure either. During my drive home tonight, I'm not 100% convinced of this cable involvement yet. What I think I need to do is actually see the seat with the cover off in person. I put the towel down right along where the seat back and bottom come together, and that still makes the biggest difference.

Does anyone know if the seat frame is metal or plastic? I'm suspecting metal, which means maybe those bolster edges can be bent or flattened out, then covered with a neoprene material, then stuff the snot out of it all.

Has anyone here actually dismantled one of these seats before? Is it hard to do?

nc211

Ok, did a little YouTube research on the seat, and poked around my car tonight. I think I'm coming back to my original idea here. I think there are three key design flaws that might be solvable.

First, the seat support springs aren't strong enough for some of us, and they're completely independent of each other, meaning no shared load carry. I think on mine, they're likely permanently bent down into open space.

Second, open space underneath the springs. A good opportunity to create some additional support to lift up the center portion of the seat out of the "bucket".

Third, the "bucket". It is what it is. But I think the springs are too low in the bucket, nothing to help support the springs, and the bucket's edge is too sharp for the typical foam padding to properly insulate for comfort.

Attached are a few photos of screen grabs I took from two YouTube videos of repairing seat covers for a W212, and an Audi A4, which illustrates a point I will make in a second.

In the W212, you'll see the frame, 3 springs, and note how the frame's edge goes from squared at the front to narrow rounded edge right at the point of where we all hate these seats. You'll see the open space underneath the springs, and I'm seeing the springs as being permanently pressed downward from use. You'll also note that none of the springs are interconnected for added support.

In the Audi pictures, you can see the springs are all interconnected via the white plastic tabs. This gives more strength to the springs as it allows one spring to share the load burden with the others.

So, I am thinking about doing the following to the frame (still thinking this through, so please post up ideas!)

Reverse the springs so they're not sagging downward. Fill the area underneath of them with medium/high-density foam for additional support. Interconnect them with wide zip-ties to help share the load.

Then possibly lay a thin piece of cut sheet metal wrapped in neoprene across the top of the springs, with focus being in the back area.

Then put some kind of neoprene material right along that narrow rounded edge to take some of the bite out of it.

Then potentially relocate that 1 inch of extra pad that was installed today right under the cover to underneath the foam seat pad.

Reinstall the cover and cross fingers.

I don't mind flat and firm, but jagged and numbing, doesn't do it for me.

Here are the photos. Please post up any ideas that I've missed. The idea here is to get our butts out of the gully of the bucket which should take the pressure of support off of those frame lumbar edges, while also softening up those edges if possible.

Here's that YouTube video of the torn W212 seat being replaced as well...







W212 Seat Frame



My car, rear floor angle, see support spring wires?



My car, rear floor angle, see the green springs?



Audi A4, see the white connectors that spreads the load burden across all of the springs?

Darel

Kudos for looking this deep into it. All of what you say makes sense.

My experience isn't with my W212 (which is horrible) but with my '76 TR6. I got the car from where it had been stored for 30+ years in Texas. The seats use rubber diaphragms, not springs, but same idea. When I first got the car, the seat was excruciating, in much the same way the W212 is. The seat diaphragms had completely disintegrated. What helped immensely, and what it sounds like you are alluding to, is basically shoving a rolled-up towel under the seat. This supported the (also-nearly-non-existent) seat foam and made it much nicer to drive. Then a short while later I just redid the seats with new foam, diaphragms, covers, etc and they're pretty good now. Definitely not the La-Z-Boys that my absolutely wonderful, fantastic, ***-pampering Silverado seats are, but much better than the Merc. I can't have my wallet in my pocket for more than an hour in the TR, but in the Merc, I can't have it in my pocket at all.

So I pretty much agree with everything you say. It's too bad it's such a pain in the butt (pun intended) to take everything apart and just try ONE of your fixes at a time. It would be nice if just supporting the springs from underneath would do enough of a job to raise your butt over the edges of the bucket, but then you want to take the seat apart once and be done with it, so might as well hit everything.

Where are the "wires" your upholstery guy spoke about cutting? Or did he mean the springs? I'm not seeing any support wires in either the exploded view or the screen grabs you posted. It looks to me that the shape of the seat is determined entirely by the bucket itself.

Darel

OK, I also have another thought on those springs. I like your idea of filling the space under them with high density foam. I'm not sure about the sheetmetal idea. If it were me I probably wouldn't do that. Maybe using something like a 1/8" HDPE plastic or something. Eventually the neoprene on the sheetmetal will rub through on the pressure points of the springs and you'll have metal-to-metal contact there.

What about, when you are tying the springs together, maybe you can also take out some of the sag by using zipties to pull some of the loops on the individual springs closer together? You know what I mean? Like closing up the "squares" just a tiny bit that make up the spring. Or, is that just a band-aid?

nc211

Thanks Darel, I love this car so I'm committed to see if I can't figure this out before tossing in the towel for something else. I feel like I'm driving a very nice watch, instead of an iPad, which is exactly what I wanted for my sedan. think I'll find the answer here for many miles of happy cruising!

On fresh eyes and brain this morning, I agree with you on the sheet metal idea. Might not be needed in general. I think the other components might be enough, and focus more on added padding underneath the springs the also underneath the actual foam padding of the seat. I'd like to keep the extra padding off of the top of the seat pad because I think it's going to diminish the effects of the heated seat element. I can find all of this material on either Amazon, Hobby Lobby and/or JoAnnes fabrics. Shouldn't be more than a $100 fix, if that much. The way I'm seeing this, we've got to get the butts much closer to level with those side edges of the frame, and take some of the bite out of the seat frame edge. But maintain the actual Mercedes Benz aspect too. I'll admit, it'll never be an S Class, but really don't want it to be either.

We'll see! I might get to it over the weekend.

nc211

I'm at the dealership, waiting on my car. Walking through killing time, a 2016 W212 is sitting on the showroom floor. Looks identical to mine in every single way (except rims). I sat in it. Guess what - comfortable as a lounge chair. Car has 35k miles (12k more than mine). I press on the seat edges to feel for the frame edge. Nope. Not there. Again, exactly like mine! Same seat materials (MTex), same options, same everything. Seats in the 2016 version are exactly what I would expect in this car.

So, looking at a schematic for seats in the 2016, guess what - slightly different frame!

Walk over to parts counter to chat, they're useless.

I can buy the new seat frame for less than $150 online. Everything else appears to be the same.

My question for the MB techs on here - can a 2016 seat bottom frame bolt up to the seat tracks? A plug and play scenario?

The 2016 is soooo comfortable! I'm not talking about the new E series, but the ones exactly like ours.

nc211

Ok, I'm back home and off the typo iPhone.

i think this can really work to solve this problem!

Comparing part numbers between 2014 and 2016, plus my repair invoice that shows part numbers replaced for the seat cushion and apparent cover, and schematics, it all suggests that this could be a plug-n-play swap out of the seat frame only to eliminate those side edges from hell.

Take a look at #1 in this schematic for a 2016 W212. And compare it to #1 in the schematic I posted in post #5 above for a 2014 W212 (which also matches the screen grab from the YouTube video as well for 2014). Can you see it? They're definitely different! Now, understand the drawings are a bit rudimentary here, but go sit in a 2016 and you'll absolutely tell the difference immediately. That rear edge is gone in the 2016, the springs are longer and likely more of them.





2014 part number for the cushion frame (#1's) is 2079100022. For the 2016's it's 2049100122. Slight difference. All the part numbers are slightly different between the model years. BUT, and would make absolute sense that the 2016 part numbers are indeed usable in a 2014 MY. Why change everything to solve just one problem? With that thinking, here is proof.

On my invoice from a couple of weeks ago to replace the seat cushion, it cites part number 219100150 as the cushion, which matches a 2016 model year W212, but does NOT match a 2014 model year, which is 2079101050. Again, slight difference. Same goes for the seat cover itself. My new one is part number 21291037058S450, which matches beige 2016. But, not beige 2014, yet they're completely identical.

The seat's height adjustment components, whereby the seat bottom attaches to, again very very slight differences in numbers and look identical in the schematics.

Before I go jamming the thing with foam, I think I'm going to buy this new cushion frame and give it a shot to see if it can work. Worse case scenario, I'm out $150 bucks (actually would just return it).

If anyone is skeptical of this, I absolutely invite you to find a 2016 W212 with your style of seats for sale near you, and just go sit it in for a few minutes. Press down on the sides. I think you'll find what I stumbled upon today myself. There very well might be an easy fix here after all!!

It just doesn't make sense to me that a company like Mercedes Benz could blow it sooo badly on a flagship vehicle and not at least try to fix it, especially when the fix is staring them in the face and is sooo easy to correct. I think they did fix it, and it was for the final model year of the W212.

Darel

Oh boy I'm so excited to see if there is a real fix for this. I'd gladly spend the $180 on that lower frame if it fixes it.

I will be curious to see how everything goes together - like, would '14 foam and cover work on the '16 frame? Or would I basically have to replace the entire lower cushion assembly, in which case I'm going to be focusing on eBay and junkyards.

Did you notice any visible differences between the two seats? Some sort of identifying characteristic to look for, or similarly, something that might prevent mixing-and-matching?

So after the work that was done, you now have a 2014 bucket, with 2016 foam and 2016 cover? If nothing else that would lead me to assume mixing and matching parts is OK.

nc211

No visible difference at all, exactly the same and took some pictures while I was to make sure. Here's the actual seat on that 2016 from yesterday.

You're correct on my seat thus far - a 2014 frame with a 2016 seat foam pad cushion and 2016 seat cover. I really do think these are interchangeable indeed. It wouldn't make much sense for MB to spend the extra money to change anything else in the process to fix the problem if they didn't have to, especially for the very last model year of the series in general (the new 2017 E series seats are totally different and oh sooo comfortable too!)

I'm ordering the frame today. Hopefully will be here by the end of the week and then will start the swapping out. Total cost with shipping and tax to me in DC = $152

Stay tuned!!


Here's the seat on that 2016: First thing I noticed visually, and then when sitting in it, is how flat and even the 3 center sections are. Look at that small section that goes underneath the vertical section of the seat and how flat and even/level it is to the other two larger sections. Then scroll up to the picture from YouTube (and likely your own seat too) and notice how that small little section in the back is angled upward to meet the seat's vertical backing.

I bet another key reason for redesigning the frame is to stop having to pay for all of these spit seats via warranty claims (especially since the CPO route has become so popular).

retna7

Seat pain here too but only on longer trips. 2:15 mark in this video seems to show the pressure points. Good luck on the retrofit! Very interested to see how it goes.

Darel

If this works, I'll get the '16 bucket and later this year I'm taking the car in for some minor little cosmetic stuff for CPO, including (hopefully) replacing the seat cover because it's not so much splitting badly, but there are a couple of pinched corners on it that are turning white and fuzzy and getting worn. So maybe I can supply the bucket and have the dealer put a new cover and possibly foam on it. Boy, you can really see the difference between my seats and the '16. I am positive that will fix the issue. Awesome!

nc211

Update: going to be a little while before I can get to this project. Seat frame has to come from Germany via 5-10 business day delay, and selling dealer is in central Florida, so expecting hurricane delay there too....

Looks like the 2015's also have this updated seat frame as well. I am thinking our 2014 frame is the same as in the coupe, and MB elected to just try to pad over it for the sedan for less sporty seats during the series facelift, but realized it wasn't working and designed a new frame for 2015 and beyond...

nc211

I think a noteworthy post here, hopefully not against forum rules.

Got an email a couple of days ago notifying me that the seat frame was coming from Germany via 5-10 day shipping then would be sent to me from the dealership.

Got fedex notice TODAY that it will be here on Monday instead. Same originating dealership.

The dealership is smack in the middle of a mass exodus of half the state. I was totally fine with them taking their time.

Tip of my hat to Lokey Mercedes Benz in Clearwater, Florida. I mean dang, you'd think that they'd have far more important things to focus on at the moment! Stay safe this weekend boys!

Darel

Same thing happened to me last weekend with something from MBPartsUSA, FedEx said all along it would be delivered Saturday, on Saturday morning that changed to the following Tuesday (after the holiday) and then at the last minute it changed back to Saturday and the guy pulled up in my driveway.

DubVBenz

Great research NC211. So is the overall consensus that seats from 2010-2013 = good
2014 = bad
2015-2016 = good ?

nc211

Many thanks, hopefully this will resolve a glaring problem for some 2014's. I agree with Darel, I think a certain batch of 2014's were built with the coupe seat frame, and likely the tail end of 2014's and thereafter got the proper seat frame. Would explain why some have it, and some don't. If you have it, you definitely know it pretty quickly. I'm not exactly a big guy, I'd say an average dad of sorts, and man after 20 minutes of driving it, I can feel it. I can't think of any other reason why MB would change a part like this if it weren't causing a lot of warranty claim problems for them.

Doubtful I'll get the seat frame on Monday now. It's sitting in the FedEx distribution center....in Tampa, FL, with a "uncontrollable delay" label..... So..... I'm fine with that though, can't even remotely be upset about that (and I'm not). The added padding already in place and a strategically placed hand towel along the very back of the seat bottom really helps quite a bit. Have a gel pad from Costco in the trunk for next weekend's drive out to Indiana if I need it.

I really feel it when i'm in my slacks for work. Wearing jeans, it feels much better.

I'll definitely update as things progress. I'd like to post up a picture or two comparing the new to old frame, and maybe do a DIY write-up on how to swap them out. From what I'm seeing so far on YouTube videos, how quickly the upholstery shop could add padding underneath the cushion, and snooping around the seat myself, I don't think this is going to be overtly difficult to do. But hopefully we will all see soon! Such nice cars, would be a shame that this simple fix couldn't be done easily. My fingers are definitely crossed for luck!