klingsor

We have a 2019 G63. The warranty expired in Feb of this year. An oil leak from the engine first appeared about 1.5 years ago. We're told the oil separator needed a replacement and they did it. Shortly after, the oil leak came back again and in late 2022 the leak intensified where I needed to fill 1 quart every month. With only two weeks left on the warranty, we brought it in. The dealership looked at it and they determined that it's a major fix that may need the transmission to be dropped. They told us they didn't have the parts for the job and they needed 25 days to procure them. We're told that we needed to take it and bring it back later. Thinking that we originally brought it in for the leak problem when it was under warranty they would fix it under warranty, we took it back and decided to get it fixed with the next routine maintenance.

So we brought it in for a routine maintenance last week and asked them to fix the leak. They told us it'll cost $4,500 to repair the oil leak since it's out of warranty now. We asked them to consider it as a goodwill repair but they refused. What are our chances of getting a favorable outcome from MB Germany if we escalate the issue? This is not in the US but I thought I'd pick your brains as to how this issue would be viewed by the mother company. Thanks.

tonygwagon

Dang tough luck, sorry to hear that! Not sure there is much you can do unless it was an issue that occurred before the warranty expired… for example; if you had a recurring problem with oil leaks. If not then I doubt MB will cover it unfortunately.

This is exactly why I like to trade in my G every 2 years. Ensures the trade-in value stays decent and I’m always driving a truck that’s under warranty.

chassis

4.0TT correct? Is the leak coming from the rear main seal? E63 and AMG GT owners are reporting failed rear main seals from plugged oil vapor separators which causes crankcase overpressure. Something to watch out for on the M177 V8. Preemptively changing separators is one way to avoid RMS failure and replacement cost.

If separators have failed there is an argument for emissions warranty coverage which is longer than the base 4/50k warranty.

300SE1993

This probably won't help the OP, but I dealt with a similar situation where there was only a short time left on the warranty and parts had to be ordered for a major repair. The dealership opened the repair order while the car was still under warranty and then ordered the parts, some of which took a month to arrive. I got the car back 1 month after the warranty expired, but since the repair order was opened while still under warranty, it was all covered. The trick is getting the RO opened while under warranty and making sure the dealership leaves it open until the car is fully repaired.

Now, as for the OP, you're unfortunately in a tough situation since you are technically out of warranty. If the dealer and MB are playing hardball, and you did get the oil leak documented while still under warranty, maybe a lawyer can help you. Good luck and keep us posted on what happens.

klingsor

Yes & yes. The tech actually told me that it's a common leak in 2019 and early 2020 models. He said they got an upgraded seal from Germany that's used in the later models which permanently solves the problem. Now I have no way of verifying what he said but that's what he told me.

What are we dealing with here in terms of potential consequences? Could crankcase overpressure do in the engine or cause a catastrophic failure? I'm just trying to grasp the urgency of the situation here.

Is this a US specific law? Or is it an MB company policy?

I appreciate the insights. Very helpful.

klingsor

OK here is what I did: I wrote a letter to MB Germany. Provided them the history of the issue and requested a consideration for a goodwill repair given how the events unfolded.

I've had a similar experience a few years ago when the sunroof switch shattered on me in my S class in the third year of ownership. Dealer told me the third year warranty covers only the engine and transmission and that I needed to fork over $4,200 to get the panel housing the sunroof switch replaced. I wrote MB Germany, and two days later the dealer calls me asking me to bring in the car. They popped in the new one and I was on my way in less than 10 minutes.

I hope they would lean on my side this time as well. I'll keep you guys posted as to what Germany says.

chassis

Dealerspeak. The root cause is not a bad seal, but rather failed vapor separators which blow oil out the seal, the path of least resistance.



IMO I see "only" failed rear main seals on a repeated basis if the new seal is not the permanent solution (I don't believe it is) and/or separators are not rectified. Ask your SA to replace the separators because they are the source of the failure. The RMS is the innocent victim in a drive by shooting. Tell him to read and print the multiple threads on this site where dealers are out of stock on vapor separators because of the "unexpected" high demand for them.


US Federal law. Read the owner's manual, or there might be a separate booklet spelling out emissions system coverage.

PeterUbers

Everything @chassis mentions is 100% correct.
I've been following the rms leak since it was first mentioned on this board and continue to follow it closely (in the market for w213 amg)

if your master tech really believes the rms seal
is a permanent fix then he's uninformed, or he's just lying and telling you what you want to hear or conveying the corporate message and towing the company line to avoid more customer angst as this thing is likely not solved.

consider this:


https://mbworld.org/forums/w213-amg/...ispreloading=1

Chedman13

Thanks for this post - if I'm summarizing for others reading this:

1) 2019 and 2020 have Rear Main Seals that could fail and newer 2020 and 2021+ models have an upgraded Rear Main Seal (RMS). So those with a failed RMS will want to be sure to "upgrade" to the latest part number.

2) The RMS could have failed by itself or it could have been due to a plugged oil vapor separators, which causes crankcase overpressure.

Does anyone have the part numbers for the updated RMS and oil vapor separators?

Highline-Autos.com

I'm confused, the dealership told you under warranty that they would fix the issue at a later date because of an issue getting parts, then denied the warranty claim when the parts were in? How could they possibly be trying to pull that, what does your diagnostic invoice say when it was first diagnosed? If diagnostics were done under warranty and it was the dealership to told you to come back for repair past your warranty coverage date, the only thing that matters is that all of this was decided under Factory Warranty.

klingsor

Go figure. The problem is that I don’t have any paper trail to the pre warranty expiry diagnosis. I was told on the phone. In any case, Germany responded. They opened a case and I was given a case number. They told me the dealership is handling it and they must contact me within three days. If they don’t, I should get back to them (Germany) I’m told.

I’m optimistic now MB Germany is involved. If this is a known issue with a documented history of repair when the oil separators were previously replaced under warranty, it’s only right to consider the RMS failure as a possible extension of the original problem. Add to that I had brought in the truck before the warrant expiry. Whether they have the issue documented on their system, that I don’t know nor do I care at this point. I’ll keep pushing and see how far I can go with this.

Highline-Autos.com

@klingsor You're on the right path, good luck!

klingsor

I got multiple calls from the dealership (corporate, customer service, maintenance manager, SA). They seemed very concerned about the issue by the amount of apologies I received. Corporate seems to be in the dark and they wanted to know what exactly happened as if they're getting contradicting information from the lower levels. Maintenance manager/SA seemed concerned that they got blamed for mishandling the case and not doing their job. I told them I'm not blaming them personally for the issue, and to me I only see the dealership and MB Germany. They told me it's a 52-manhour job and offered me a "significant discount" to get the repair done without specifying what that means. I said no on account this issue may come back later somewhere else in the engine, and I don't want to concede and bear the responsibility of potential future issues related to this issue. Maintenance told me they would have to get back to corporate to see what they want to do about it. In the meantime, I responded to Germany and told them what just happened and that I insist on getting it done as a goodwill warranty repair. I'm quite frustrated with how the dealership is handling the situation. I don't mind paying when I'm expected to pay. I've already paid more than $25k on maintenance thus far. But when it's clearly their responsibility to bear, they should own up to it and get it sorted out.

I'm planning on placing an order for a 2024 AMG SL 55 that has the same engine, and god I hope I don't have to go through this kind of miserable experience again.

ffejnotrom

Is there any updates here? I have a 2019, just out of warranty, 30k miles, I see some oil drips as well.

Couple questions :

1- has it been repaired?
2- did they again replace the oil separators, even though they were replaced previously?
3- how many miles/time passed from when you first noticed it was leaking for a second time between when you again took it in and have hopefully now had it repaired?

My 2019 I JUST noticed oil drops in the garage, so it must have failed in the last 500-1000 miles or so. Maybe less. Never noticed anything until the last 2-3 weeks. So im wondering if it's a ticking time bomb or I need to bring it in ASAP, which would cause a bit of a head ache, but not as big of a headache as a catostrophic failure. So trying to bring it in when it is easiest for me, as well as plan to be out of the car for awhile.

Thanks, hope this worked out for you.

Chedman13

I have a 2019 G63 with 42k miles on it and started the leak. Thankfully, I purchased an aftermarket warranty as I'm also out of factory warranty.

1) Rear main seal (RMS) fails and leaks.

2) The cause of the RMS is clogged oil separators and can cause a whistle or whining sound coming from under the engine area.

3) The RMS will be suctioned and fold in, causing it to fail and oil to leak.

Due to warranty procedure (aftermarket), the RMS was replaced first (no noise was made) to fix the leak.

The noise started and the Oil Separators were found to be clogged and replaced. A test the dealer did was turn on the engine with the engine cap removed, it caused no noise. Put the cap back on, there is noise.

Total so far is USD 5,000 + taxes in repairs and estimated to be USD 6,000 total including taxes. I have a zero deductible, so not paying anything.

I will ask the tech in about 20,000 more miles to re-check the oil separators and pay out of pocket to replace them if needed to avoid a RMS replacement.

I do not think it's something you need to urgently take in, but should replace both oil separators and RMS sooner than later.

ffejnotrom

I had mine repaired but the aftermarket warranty would not cover the oil separator. Because it’s an emissions item. So I told them not to fix it.

I tried to get MB to step up they gave me a middle finger. Warranty company gave me middle finger. Dealer gave me middle finger.

so when it blows out again, the dealer can again fix it for free. Since i now have a 2 yr warranty on the rms. When it blows out again I’ll be taking it right back in for another replacement.

I’ll also cancel my extended warranty and get all my $ back for it.

they refuse to acknowledge this and I think there should be a class action lawsuit over this issue. It’s disgusting.

Chedman13

See photo of RMS, top portion the rubber if folded in due to the suction created with clogged oil separators.

ffejnotrom

Yes dealer told me same thing, and it's clear as day the Oil separators are the issue. However MB wont cover it under emissions warranty even though it's listed as an emissions item. Apparently the oil separators are not covered by the 8/80k emission warranty.

aftermarket warranty doesn't cover emissions items also. They say Mercedes should cover it.

Dealer was completely worthless. North Scottsdale Mercedes is a complete joke.

Hoping the seal blows out again, and I head on in again and shove another RMS seal up their A** and they can pay to fix the RMS again on their dime.

Chedman13

what warranty would cover your RMS if it fails again? I believe you mentioned you will be canceling your aftermarket warranty.

ffejnotrom

Yes I am cancelling the aftermarket warranty.

MB dealers are required to give a 2 yr, unlimited mile warranty on repairs made.

They told me it was "anecdotal" that the oil separators caused the issue. With that im hoping it blows out again soon, and they can just install another new RMS seal. and ill continue to stop in and have them replace it every single time as long as it blows with in 2 years.

Chedman13

Great info, didn't know that about the 2 yr unlimited mile warranty on repairs. Thanks for sharing.

ffejnotrom

Do you think the pressure is alleviated by opening the engine cap? Im assuming youre referring to the oil filler cap?

I wonder if there is a solution to just relieve the pressure and bypass the useless oil separators? Like an engine block vent/filter or some sort of way to get pressure out other than the separator.

If it's as simple as relieving pressure from the oil fill cap I wonder if there could be some way to have a vented cap that keeps the oil in but allows pressure to escape. I know the whine/noise youre referring to and wondered if there is a correlation with this issue. I also noticed a little short split second squeak/whistle/noise when starting the car which seems to be gone now that the RMS was replaced.

The oil separators are generally known as something not very important and do not really in any way affect the performance or reliability. It's purely there to meet government regulations. Back in the day when I would build race motors we would put a little tiny k&n filter on the hole in the valve cover that usually had a hose running back to the intake. Which I believe is what these separators do. I could be wrong though, it's been many years since ive dealt with working on cars in that way.

Chedman13

Yes, the engine oil cap.

No idea, just what my master tech told me.

I installed one of these in my car 10 years ago:
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/52205/10002/-1

ffejnotrom

Quick question just so I can make sure..... Does the whistle/noise you mentioned kind of remind you of like a feedback/reverb in the speakers? Hard to explain the noise for me... however, thats the best thing I can equate to it. Many years ago when I was young and dumb and rebuilding wannabe race cars, we would also install amps and subwoofers etc, and with old crappy cars and stereo equipment, coupled with (myself) a dumb 17-20 year old kid with no money, would half *** install an amp or new CD player and I remember sometimes would get like a feedback/hum that the pitch of the noise would kind of move with the engine revving. Like when the alternator would spin more when accelerating would create this noise through the speakers, likely because of poor wiring or under gauged speaker wire etc. But thats kinda what I hear in the g63, but it must be coming from something else because it wasnt always there. So I assumed when you mentioned the noise it was the same, but maybe not.

ffejnotrom

I'll also add make sure you do your diligence against these dealers, as you may already know, at least according to my dealership, the oil separator is more expensive to replace than the RMS. Who knows if the dealer is lying and just padding the RO with extra hours or fees. But the dealer charged 9.8, plus 1 hour labor for diagnosis for the RMS, 10.8 total, and tried to collect 15.2 hours labor from the warranty company. The warranty company said "no, the manual shows max 10.8 hours, which is what we will reimburse."

Then the dealer tried to get me to fit the bill for the extra 4.4 hours a charge of $1007.60... I told them to "pound sand, If it's under warranty, it's under warranty, nothing is coming out of my pocket if it's covered under warranty." Then the service advisor offered to split the difference with me but didn't tell me why other than the warranty company wouldn't cover it all, Odd... Again I said, "not a chance in hell. Talk to the warranty company and see if they'll split it with you" BTW their labor rate is 229.00 an hour.... 1007.60 divided by 4.4 hours = 229.00, the exact dollar amount he tried to collect from me. Not a coincidence.

After that, I then contacted the warranty company, and they said "this is common, BUT, if the dealer could provide documentation for the extra 4.4 hours labor being necessary, we will happily pay it, But what we show is 10.8 hours max and thats what we told them we will reimburse, nothing more nothing less"

When I talked to the service advisor again, and told them I talked to warranty co., all they need to do is show the documentation to the warranty company, and they'll pay it, he kinda blew it off, and said " don't worry about it, we'll work it out with them"....

Surprised when I picked up the car and there was 10.8 hours labor charged on my bill.... Plus parts.

The total bill for the RMS ONLY was , 2816.00, thats what the R.O. said. Thats what is documented the warranty company reimbursed.... So they CLEARLY tried to over charge the warranty company, when they said no, they tried to get me to pay the difference.

This is pretty slimy in my opinion, however, since i'm not the one paying it, it's not really my problem... HOWEVER, the original quote for the RMS replacement was $5559.00. Thats what the dealer attempted to charge me after they diagnosed it, before they knew I had a warranty... So my question to them was "you quoted me 5559.00 for the repair with 15.2 hours labor and parts, then attempted to charge me 1007.60 for 4.4 hours labor after finding out I had a 3rd party warranty, the bill/receipt shows the total bill was 2816.00 with 10.4 hours labor and parts. 2381.60 was labor, the rest parts, tax, fluids, etc. and thats what they reimbursed... Soooo what was the 5,559.00????!!!???" Thats DOUBLE what the bill ACTUALLY was! The bill with 15.2 hours labor should have only been the 2816.00 plus 1007.60 for the extra 4.4 hours, but that sure doesn't equal 5559.00, so what was the extra 2-3,000.00 on the original quote??? "

To that they had ZERO answers, and got very defensive, and rude, so they nail in the coffin that I'll NEVER do business there, or any other dealer for repair, not that they care, but I do. This was North Scottsdale MB, part of the PENSKE group. So buyer BEWARE!!! They're a national dealer group. They will try and actually will RIP you off if you don't do your homework. Clearly they COULDN'T get any documentation for the extra 4.4 hours, because it didn't exist. Otherwise they would have. The warranty company said "no problem we'll pay them the extra 4.4 hours", why wouldn't they just send it in to collect the extra 1007.60? I know... because they're liars... 15.2 hours included charging 4.4 hours for AIR, and the 5559.00 was quite literally a blatant scam trying to over charge and rip me off. So dont let them pad the repair order. And always ask how many hours labor and what the labor rate is and make sure it aligns with the bill at the end. Big surprise a car dealer will try to rip you off huh? LOL