Lemon or just a poor quality car?
09-22-2011, 07:13 PM
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2007 GL450
Lemon or just a poor quality car?
Back in April I posted the following thread:
I bough my GL450 about 4 1/2 years ago (replacing a Cayenne S) and loved the car from the get-go. Smooth, spacious, powerful and incredibly reliable. Other than the regular oil changes and services (all done at the same MB dealer) the car was flawless. We did a major check-through before the warranty expired at the end of last year and decided against the $6000 for an extended warranty as the car really never had any issues.
So in March we bring the car in for a regular service (i.e. Oil Change, tune-up; just the regular stuff) and 4days after getting it back the 'Check Engine' light comes on. Thus - check the manual, call the dealer, "bring it in we find the error' and we drop of the car. Two days later the phonecall that they 'suspect' that some cellunoids inside the engine "have gone bad, a bit unusual for a relatively new car with low mileage (43,000) but it happens". Well, not knowing a better alternative we pay $800, get the car back with the light off and all seemingly working.
A day later, the light is back on. Back to the dealer (and if I write this so casually, it is a 20min drive one way and always involves either a rental car or being picked up by my spouse, both of us taking time away from work and this both times when dropping of the car and picking it up). A day later the dreaded phonecall "unfortunately it is what we suspected, your crankshaft has gone bad and this is an expensive repair". Well, no kidding, it is a $12,000 repair. What apparently happened is that a gearwheel on the crankshaft was not properly alligned with the belt and the little 'teeth' were all worn off, resulting in metal shavings in the oil and all over the engine. I was told by the dealer that this has nothing to do with any of the services they ever performed on the car and that they did not see any metal shavings the week before when they serviced the car . But having said this, neither did they perform any work on the car that could have possibly caused this.
Well, I am not a mechanic or know anything about car mechanics so I took their word for it, though I found it to be a bit of a strange coincidents.
As I was a 'prefered' customer, i.e. having bought the car new, did all my services there, it is not my first or only MB etc, Mercedes Benz North America agreed to pay for the expenses to fix the issue. The dealer charged me 'only' $580 for little stuff like changing the oil twice to flush out any metal shavings and little stuff they performed (I have no idea what it actually was) - though $580 is not my idea of MB pays for everything. But, okay.
I pickup the car 10 days later (10days with a Lincoln Town Car rental - painful (did you know one can actually get seasick in a car?)) and on my way home I notice that the car is sluggish and that when accelerating a bit harder than just cruising with the masses the engine revs up to 3000rpm, that the gears seem to disconnect and acceleration stops, the engine revs up to 6000rm and that connects the gear again very very hard. Obviously, not good at all and this jerking Bonanza effect is happening in both first, second and sometimes third gear.
This is literally happening less than 10miles from the dealer, I call the guy up, tell him about the issue, get the standard answer "we have not experienced that when we test drove the car" and we return the car the very next morning.
While my wife drops off the car, I talk to the service rep, explain the details, tell him to drive the car with my wife to see the issue, she offers to show him but he says it is not needed/I don't have time etc.
A couple of hours later the phonecall "we checked your car, all seems to be fine, we did not feel any of the issues but we have 'flushed' the transmission computer, i.e. they have reset the software to learn/reconnect with the new engine settings (remember, the engine was taken apart and put together again). I pick up a car, insist on a testdrive with the service guy, he says he is not allowed to leave the lot and will get a mechanic, who does not show up for a good 20-30minutes. I take the car and even before leaving the lot, the same effect is back: jerky shifting, sluggish, whiney noise. Back to the dealer, head mechanic drives with me (and is telling me that he drove the car 40-50 miles on the highway today and did not notice anything. I ask him why he did not get the detailed information that I provided and that this happens at low speeds and get a shrug).
On the street in front of the dealer I accellerate hard (i.e. kickdown) and get whiney noise from below the car, rev to 3000rpm, disconnected gear, rev up with no acceleration to 6000, gear kicks in and hard shift. In short, no change to before.
Now I am getting the 'it is all your fault' from both the mechanice and the service consultant: "you are driving your car really hard', "we never drive cars like that", "cars are not made for kick-down" etc and repeatedly. Well, I explain to both of them that that car is our family hauler that my wife drives with our three kids and not our racecar, that she is driving 98% of the time and is driving totally normal and she got the same issues with the car. Furthermore, I explain to them that I don't know any car that could not handle a simple kickdown and that being able to accelerate without an issue is a safety concern.
Then they explain to me that 'for us the car does not really feel sluggish' and the whiney noise 'is normal'. Come on, please …
To add insult to injury, the same service guy that told me that he is not allowed to leave the lot gets into my car 5min after I leave and goes for a testride (I was waiting for my wife to pick me up)
I leave the car, go back home and start internet research. Sure enough, I find on various MB forums that the transmission has had issues and even recalls and that Mercedes recommends to fix certain details if the car is under warranty.
I go back to the dealer, show them the details, give them the Mercedes Bulletin (that they have never heard about before (really?) and they start working on the car, but not without repeating that the issue with the transmission has nothing to do with any of the services they ever performed, it is just a coincidents and they might be 'guilty by association'.
Same routine again, I have to guarantee payment for a $500 transmission service (which interesting enough used to be every 60,000 miles and because of the issues with te transmission has been reduced to every 40,000 miles. Sure enough, the dealer did not seem to know about it and did not do the transmission service during the 43,000 mile service three weeks before).
Long story short, the transmission has graphite particles in it and Mercedes Benz North America again agrees that this warrants a courtesy repair and replaces the entire transmission with a new one that is flown in from Germany (without being in the car business, I am very sure that they would not do that unless there is something seriously wrong with the transmission). They do not, however, cover labor cost and while the $9000 transmission is done at no cost to me, I have to pay $1900 installation.
I pick up the car, it is back to how it was six weeks before, i.e. not jerky, no whining noise and not sluggish at all.
No word from of apology, not a word saying that they might have been wrong etc.
So, car is back home, drives great and my wife says that nothing really can go wrong now, new transmission, new engine, we should be good for the next couple of years. At the same time we discuss if we still have the trust in the car or if it might be time to consider replacing it.
That was all last Friday.
On Tuesday, less than a 150miles after picking up the car with a new transmission and all, we get a message 'top-up coolant' and notice a big puddle of water below the car in the garage. Call to my friend the service guy, bring the car in etc. I buy destilled water, fill it up and less than 500feet from the house same warning again and the coolant virtually empty. Back to the house, call towing service, car towed to Mercedes and a call from the service department in the afternoon saying that the issue is fixed, a hose came off and it works again. Then came the dreaded words "this is nothing we ever touched, it is just something that happens and I guess we might be guilty by association".
I can't wait to pick up the car and have a word in person …
Long story and incredibly frustrating, but the question is what to do:
• we love the GL, but it appears that our particular car might have issues
• the dealer seems to work very sloppy and is not a reliable mechanical outfit (despite being the official MB entity here, but one is reliant on the skills of the actual mechanic)
• we could buy a $6000 warranty, but even the full warranty has limitations of coverage
• we could trade in the car and buy a new one, but can't afford a new GL right now, thus what is a good option
• would we possibly have any legal recourse based on what happened?
• how does one deal with an outfit that acts with limited professionalism (and I try to be polite here) - we paid almost $4000 so far for stuff that has nothing to do with any of our driving habbits
or care for the car
I bough my GL450 about 4 1/2 years ago (replacing a Cayenne S) and loved the car from the get-go. Smooth, spacious, powerful and incredibly reliable. Other than the regular oil changes and services (all done at the same MB dealer) the car was flawless. We did a major check-through before the warranty expired at the end of last year and decided against the $6000 for an extended warranty as the car really never had any issues.
So in March we bring the car in for a regular service (i.e. Oil Change, tune-up; just the regular stuff) and 4days after getting it back the 'Check Engine' light comes on. Thus - check the manual, call the dealer, "bring it in we find the error' and we drop of the car. Two days later the phonecall that they 'suspect' that some cellunoids inside the engine "have gone bad, a bit unusual for a relatively new car with low mileage (43,000) but it happens". Well, not knowing a better alternative we pay $800, get the car back with the light off and all seemingly working.
A day later, the light is back on. Back to the dealer (and if I write this so casually, it is a 20min drive one way and always involves either a rental car or being picked up by my spouse, both of us taking time away from work and this both times when dropping of the car and picking it up). A day later the dreaded phonecall "unfortunately it is what we suspected, your crankshaft has gone bad and this is an expensive repair". Well, no kidding, it is a $12,000 repair. What apparently happened is that a gearwheel on the crankshaft was not properly alligned with the belt and the little 'teeth' were all worn off, resulting in metal shavings in the oil and all over the engine. I was told by the dealer that this has nothing to do with any of the services they ever performed on the car and that they did not see any metal shavings the week before when they serviced the car . But having said this, neither did they perform any work on the car that could have possibly caused this.
Well, I am not a mechanic or know anything about car mechanics so I took their word for it, though I found it to be a bit of a strange coincidents.
As I was a 'prefered' customer, i.e. having bought the car new, did all my services there, it is not my first or only MB etc, Mercedes Benz North America agreed to pay for the expenses to fix the issue. The dealer charged me 'only' $580 for little stuff like changing the oil twice to flush out any metal shavings and little stuff they performed (I have no idea what it actually was) - though $580 is not my idea of MB pays for everything. But, okay.
I pickup the car 10 days later (10days with a Lincoln Town Car rental - painful (did you know one can actually get seasick in a car?)) and on my way home I notice that the car is sluggish and that when accelerating a bit harder than just cruising with the masses the engine revs up to 3000rpm, that the gears seem to disconnect and acceleration stops, the engine revs up to 6000rm and that connects the gear again very very hard. Obviously, not good at all and this jerking Bonanza effect is happening in both first, second and sometimes third gear.
This is literally happening less than 10miles from the dealer, I call the guy up, tell him about the issue, get the standard answer "we have not experienced that when we test drove the car" and we return the car the very next morning.
While my wife drops off the car, I talk to the service rep, explain the details, tell him to drive the car with my wife to see the issue, she offers to show him but he says it is not needed/I don't have time etc.
A couple of hours later the phonecall "we checked your car, all seems to be fine, we did not feel any of the issues but we have 'flushed' the transmission computer, i.e. they have reset the software to learn/reconnect with the new engine settings (remember, the engine was taken apart and put together again). I pick up a car, insist on a testdrive with the service guy, he says he is not allowed to leave the lot and will get a mechanic, who does not show up for a good 20-30minutes. I take the car and even before leaving the lot, the same effect is back: jerky shifting, sluggish, whiney noise. Back to the dealer, head mechanic drives with me (and is telling me that he drove the car 40-50 miles on the highway today and did not notice anything. I ask him why he did not get the detailed information that I provided and that this happens at low speeds and get a shrug).
On the street in front of the dealer I accellerate hard (i.e. kickdown) and get whiney noise from below the car, rev to 3000rpm, disconnected gear, rev up with no acceleration to 6000, gear kicks in and hard shift. In short, no change to before.
Now I am getting the 'it is all your fault' from both the mechanice and the service consultant: "you are driving your car really hard', "we never drive cars like that", "cars are not made for kick-down" etc and repeatedly. Well, I explain to both of them that that car is our family hauler that my wife drives with our three kids and not our racecar, that she is driving 98% of the time and is driving totally normal and she got the same issues with the car. Furthermore, I explain to them that I don't know any car that could not handle a simple kickdown and that being able to accelerate without an issue is a safety concern.
Then they explain to me that 'for us the car does not really feel sluggish' and the whiney noise 'is normal'. Come on, please …
To add insult to injury, the same service guy that told me that he is not allowed to leave the lot gets into my car 5min after I leave and goes for a testride (I was waiting for my wife to pick me up)
I leave the car, go back home and start internet research. Sure enough, I find on various MB forums that the transmission has had issues and even recalls and that Mercedes recommends to fix certain details if the car is under warranty.
I go back to the dealer, show them the details, give them the Mercedes Bulletin (that they have never heard about before (really?) and they start working on the car, but not without repeating that the issue with the transmission has nothing to do with any of the services they ever performed, it is just a coincidents and they might be 'guilty by association'.
Same routine again, I have to guarantee payment for a $500 transmission service (which interesting enough used to be every 60,000 miles and because of the issues with te transmission has been reduced to every 40,000 miles. Sure enough, the dealer did not seem to know about it and did not do the transmission service during the 43,000 mile service three weeks before).
Long story short, the transmission has graphite particles in it and Mercedes Benz North America again agrees that this warrants a courtesy repair and replaces the entire transmission with a new one that is flown in from Germany (without being in the car business, I am very sure that they would not do that unless there is something seriously wrong with the transmission). They do not, however, cover labor cost and while the $9000 transmission is done at no cost to me, I have to pay $1900 installation.
I pick up the car, it is back to how it was six weeks before, i.e. not jerky, no whining noise and not sluggish at all.
No word from of apology, not a word saying that they might have been wrong etc.
So, car is back home, drives great and my wife says that nothing really can go wrong now, new transmission, new engine, we should be good for the next couple of years. At the same time we discuss if we still have the trust in the car or if it might be time to consider replacing it.
That was all last Friday.
On Tuesday, less than a 150miles after picking up the car with a new transmission and all, we get a message 'top-up coolant' and notice a big puddle of water below the car in the garage. Call to my friend the service guy, bring the car in etc. I buy destilled water, fill it up and less than 500feet from the house same warning again and the coolant virtually empty. Back to the house, call towing service, car towed to Mercedes and a call from the service department in the afternoon saying that the issue is fixed, a hose came off and it works again. Then came the dreaded words "this is nothing we ever touched, it is just something that happens and I guess we might be guilty by association".
I can't wait to pick up the car and have a word in person …
Long story and incredibly frustrating, but the question is what to do:
• we love the GL, but it appears that our particular car might have issues
• the dealer seems to work very sloppy and is not a reliable mechanical outfit (despite being the official MB entity here, but one is reliant on the skills of the actual mechanic)
• we could buy a $6000 warranty, but even the full warranty has limitations of coverage
• we could trade in the car and buy a new one, but can't afford a new GL right now, thus what is a good option
• would we possibly have any legal recourse based on what happened?
• how does one deal with an outfit that acts with limited professionalism (and I try to be polite here) - we paid almost $4000 so far for stuff that has nothing to do with any of our driving habbits
or care for the car
09-23-2011, 01:47 PM
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GL 320, 993TT, BMW 550XI
There is a saying that one should not buy the first year model/generation of a car for a reason. There are bugs and issues which will get worked out during the model run.
07 GLs are the first model and generation for Mercedes. I would expect it to have more issues compared to other years on some of the cars. Last model year of a generation tends to be the most reliable. Too bad you got one of them.
I have a 09 GL320 and spent the money on CPO warranty up to 7 years or 100K miles for my piece of mind.
Good luck with your fixes and decisions.
07 GLs are the first model and generation for Mercedes. I would expect it to have more issues compared to other years on some of the cars. Last model year of a generation tends to be the most reliable. Too bad you got one of them.
I have a 09 GL320 and spent the money on CPO warranty up to 7 years or 100K miles for my piece of mind.
Good luck with your fixes and decisions.
09-23-2011, 04:52 PM
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2006 E55, 2007 GL450
Your dealers mechanics are inept. They should have known about the bulletin from the start, and own up to their mistakes. Not all MB mechanics are bad, i think you were just unlucky to get the bad one.
I also think that the quality of the car leaves much to be desired.. But then coming from a Lexus, this is something that I accepted prior to choosing Mercedes..
I just had to replace front sway bars, a ball joint, 2 rear shocks due to leaking fluid, all at 85000 miles.
Its still a wonderful machine though.. When its working well.
I also think that the quality of the car leaves much to be desired.. But then coming from a Lexus, this is something that I accepted prior to choosing Mercedes..
I just had to replace front sway bars, a ball joint, 2 rear shocks due to leaking fluid, all at 85000 miles.
Its still a wonderful machine though.. When its working well.
09-24-2011, 04:56 PM
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2023 S500, 2002 Ferrari 360 Modena Coupe, 2012 Ferrari FF
Our 2007 GL450 with 67K has been to the dealer 19 times. Are the 2011's more reliable? We purchased M-B extended to 75K, won't own it without warranty, it is a great vehicle!
09-24-2011, 05:34 PM
#6
Legal recourse? I think you have the right to whine if you paid for the work or the truck was under warranty. They paid 12k for something they are not supposed to but did it anyway.
No offense, but I think you are one of "those" customers with sense of entitlement while you actually in this particular case should be thankful for what they did.
Btw, there is no such thing as non- competent mb service- especially when it comes to hardcore engine work as this is usually performed by the most skilled techs. If you knew how things run at mb you would agree with me. The system works.
My 2 cents on the tranny is that the problem might or might now be related to your engine problem. Bring it to another dealer, pay for a diagnose and if it turns out they are related you might argue with mb to pay for that one too. If they are not related (which is my feel) then I don't know what to tell you. If the dealer has no idea what is going on then the mb diag tools are not showing any problems and troubleshooting will be most likely very expensive as it will involve replacing modules until the problem is gone- an expensive and frustruating proposition.
No offense, but I think you are one of "those" customers with sense of entitlement while you actually in this particular case should be thankful for what they did.
Btw, there is no such thing as non- competent mb service- especially when it comes to hardcore engine work as this is usually performed by the most skilled techs. If you knew how things run at mb you would agree with me. The system works.
My 2 cents on the tranny is that the problem might or might now be related to your engine problem. Bring it to another dealer, pay for a diagnose and if it turns out they are related you might argue with mb to pay for that one too. If they are not related (which is my feel) then I don't know what to tell you. If the dealer has no idea what is going on then the mb diag tools are not showing any problems and troubleshooting will be most likely very expensive as it will involve replacing modules until the problem is gone- an expensive and frustruating proposition.
Last edited by alx; 09-24-2011 at 10:33 PM.
