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M275 V12 Bi-Turbo Platform Technical discussion relating to models sharing the M275 V12 Bi-Turbo (V12 TT). Including SL600, SL65 AMG, CL600, CL65 AMG, S600, S65 AMG.
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Misfiring

 
Old 05-24-2012, 01:48 PM
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I couldn't find a number to call so I contacted them via their messaging system. It was supposed to be $140 for 1 coil pack or $250 for both. They adjusted the price to $42 for both coil packs.
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cjcalo View Post
I couldn't find a number to call so I contacted them via their messaging system. It was supposed to be $140 for 1 coil pack or $250 for both. They adjusted the price to $42 for both coil packs.
Nice!

Are you going to do it yourself?

Curious to see if you will find a thin layer of oil on the upper half of any of the spark plugs or around the red insulator boots; or in any of the spark plug cavity holes..

I'm a DIYer and was extremely happy after I did mine.. especially cleaning it out, putting in new spark plugs.. checking and resetting all bolts to the speced torque settings.

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Old 05-24-2012, 08:34 PM
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Yes I will certainly do it myself and I'll check for any oil leaks or contamination. I just ordered them this morning and they have already been shipped out. I can't wait to get her back on the road doing some wot pulls without the cel and limp mode!

BTW, I do wish this car was faster especially with the weight of this car and the power potential of other newer cars. 600hp in this car feels like a sled in mud. My buddy has the new cts-v and he currently has a tune only. I get the feeling like I'm going to be raped unwillingly.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:41 PM
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by cjcalo View Post
Yes I will certainly do it myself and I'll check for any oil leaks or contamination. I just ordered them this morning and they have already been shipped out. I can't wait to get her back on the road doing some wot pulls without the cel and limp mode!

BTW, I do wish this car was faster especially with the weight of this car and the power potential of other newer cars. 600hp in this car feels like a sled in mud. My buddy has the new cts-v and he currently has a tune only. I get the feeling like I'm going to be raped unwillingly.
There always be something faster..

Should be about even or we should still be Kings with the tune from 40mph- unwards.. From 0, it's debatable as to who gets traction first.. or loses it first.
I've got 285's, a bit wider on the back for more traction.. I also removed all the stuff (spare tire, tools, got Triple AAA++RV) from the trunk too. At least ~45lbs. Still need to do the muffler delete to save even more weight.. you can go on and on, and then add the nitrous, etc.. Reminds me when I say I won't take any shots at a party, and when it starts..it keeps going


Just hold down the paddle button and floor it.. it knows what to do.. and definitely try to turn of ESP off or your just having a safe roll on since it'll shutdown that wheel down.. But be safe with that ESP off though, she likes to go sideways with all that torque..

Did you get the trans torque tune also?

Last edited by NRL; 05-25-2012 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NRL View Post
There always be something faster..

Should be about even or we should still be Kings with the tune from 40mph- unwards.. From 0, it's debatable as to who gets traction first.. or loses it first.
I've got 285's, a bit wider on the back for more traction.. I also removed all the stuff (spare tire, tools, got Triple AAA++RV) from the trunk too. At least ~45lbs. Still need to do the muffler delete to save even more weight.. you can go on and on, and then add the nitrous, etc.. Reminds me when I say I won't take any shots at a party, and when it starts..it keeps going


Just hold down the paddle button and floor it.. it knows what to do.. and definitely try to turn of ESP off or your just having a safe roll on since it'll shutdown that wheel down.. But be safe with that ESP off though, she likes to go sideways with all that torque..

Did you get the trans torque tune also?
Yes I took advantage of the speedriven special it was $1290 for ecu and tcu. I think all the minor mods won't make me very happy I think this car needs a bigger set of snails to be fast. But I'm not going to do it its too much $$$ for me to spend on just modding it for speed and I feel that this car is not the car to do that. So I will just rock the ecu/tcu tune and that's it. Win or lose it is what it is, but I think I will lose a lot more than win

Last edited by cjcalo; 05-29-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:36 PM
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I ordered my plugs and coil packs they should be here towards the end of this week so in the meantime I just removed both coil packs and spark plugs today. I have to say, this was REALLY REALLY easy I didn't look at any manuals or websites I just jumped in head first. This was the first one I've done on any v12 mercedes.

I timed myself just for kicks. I did the passenger side first and it took me 52 minutes. The driver side only took me 35 minutes since I had the experience of just doing the passenger side and it only took me 15 minutes to remove the coil pack. I didn't use any electric or air tools this was all by hand. And I wasn't rushing I was just cruising along listening to music and texting my old lady at the same time. Now she (the car not my old lady) sits and waits for Fedex to get here.....

How much do shops or dealers charge for this? I may have to open up my garage for others that need spark plugs or coil packs changed.
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cjcalo View Post
Yes I took advantage of the speedriven special it was $1290 for ecu and tcu. I think all the minor mods won't make me very happy I think this car needs a bigger set of snails to be fast. But I'm not going to do it its too much $$$ for me to spend on just modding it for speed and I feel that this car is not the car to do that. So I will just rock the ecu/tcu tune and that's it. Win or lose it is what it is, but I think I will lose a lot more than win
I think you need a Nissan GTR

But seriously though, you can't touch the performance (and luxury) the V12 TT turns out for getting it used between $35k-$45k..

I'm looking for a used CTS-V Wagon a few years from now but I don't think it'll be as cheap as the AMG.. Did you see how fast that Caddy Wagon is?
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Old 05-30-2012, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cjcalo View Post
I ordered my plugs and coil packs they should be here towards the end of this week so in the meantime I just removed both coil packs and spark plugs today. I have to say, this was REALLY REALLY easy I didn't look at any manuals or websites I just jumped in head first. This was the first one I've done on any v12 mercedes.

I timed myself just for kicks. I did the passenger side first and it took me 52 minutes. The driver side only took me 35 minutes since I had the experience of just doing the passenger side and it only took me 15 minutes to remove the coil pack. I didn't use any electric or air tools this was all by hand. And I wasn't rushing I was just cruising along listening to music and texting my old lady at the same time. Now she (the car not my old lady) sits and waits for Fedex to get here.....

How much do shops or dealers charge for this? I may have to open up my garage for others that need spark plugs or coil packs changed.
Good Job! I wonder if any other supercar with a V12 TT is as easy to work on as the M275..

Did you spot any thin layer of oil inside of any of the red boots or spark plug cavity?

We need to figure out how to diagnose those coil packs and re-vamp the old ones.. or rebuild them.
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Old 05-30-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NRL View Post
I think you need a Nissan GTR

But seriously though, you can't touch the performance (and luxury) the V12 TT turns out for getting it used between $35k-$45k..

I'm looking for a used CTS-V Wagon a few years from now but I don't think it'll be as cheap as the AMG.. Did you see how fast that Caddy Wagon is?
I also love wagons I was going to get an e55 wagon back a few years ago. Ya the performance and luxury are nice that's why I chose this car. I test drove the new cts-v and to tell you the truth I didn't like it much. Yes it has that nice LS based motor which is easy to get hp out of. But the car itself still felt like gm quality and I don't like the rear end of that car. It kinda reminds me a little of that ugly pontiac minivan/suv thing. Also, I think I'm spoiled by hp because my diesel truck makes more power than my cl65 it makes 750 rwhp and almost 1500tq. In fact it feels like it could give the cl a run for its money.


Originally Posted by NRL View Post
Good Job! I wonder if any other supercar with a V12 TT is as easy to work on as the M275..

Did you spot any thin layer of oil inside of any of the red boots or spark plug cavity?

We need to figure out how to diagnose those coil packs and re-vamp the old ones.. or rebuild them.
Everything was all clean no leaks, corrosion or anything. I'm still waiting on fedex they say Friday ughhh. Ya its a lot easier than one would think when looking at it for the first time. I'm very mechanical though so I'm not afraid to jump in there and turn wrenches.

If these new coil packs last 50k with the tune I will be happy I wouldn't expect them to last much more. Back in the day when I used to tinker with supras we'd always have to change coil packs after throwing on a single turbo and adding more fuel and boost.
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:37 PM
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Just finished installing the spark plugs and coil packs. Right away the car ran a lot better it was much more throttle responsive. I was expecting this since my old plugs looked bad. I did about 7 pulls at wot and it wasn't any different it still feels slow. I think I need to get it out on a cooler day its 88 degrees and my IAT's cruising are 125-130 and at idle it goes up to low 160s yikes! I know that my car runs like a slug at temps 80 and above and I think that's pretty much the norm for the bi-turbo v12s. But at least it doesn't throw codes or CEL anymore which was the main objective. Before this it threw codes on both side and randomly.

Last edited by cjcalo; 05-31-2012 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cjcalo View Post
Just finished installing the spark plugs and coil packs. Right away the car ran a lot better it was much more throttle responsive. I was expecting this since my old plugs looked bad. I did about 7 pulls at wot and it wasn't any different it still feels slow. I think I need to get it out on a cooler day its 88 degrees and my IAT's cruising are 125-130 and at idle it goes up to low 160s yikes! I know that my car runs like a slug at temps 80 and above and I think that's pretty much the norm for the bi-turbo v12s. But at least it doesn't throw codes or CEL anymore which was the main objective. Before this it threw codes on both side and randomly.
I think you need Nitrous

Did you turn off ESP?

Have you tried the "sneaky reset" trick? (It resets the adaptive shift points, I do it almost every week or a few days)

1. Turn the ignition key to the on (not start) position.

2. Press the gas pedal to the floor and hold for five seconds.

3. Turn the key to the "off" position (don't remove the key), then release the gas pedal.

4. Wait at least two minutes for ECU to reset.


I use Torque on my Android Phone with a Bluetooth OBDII Connector, gives some data as to what's going on. IAT, Plus Horsepower and 0-60, 100 times..
What are you using?
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Old 06-01-2012, 02:14 PM
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With sneaky reset.......are the adaptive shift points defaulted to original factory setting?

Do you know speeds at optimum shift points for the 5 speed?
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Old 06-01-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by abiazis View Post
With sneaky reset.......are the adaptive shift points defaulted to original factory setting?

Do you know speeds at optimum shift points for the 5 speed?

Not sure about the optimum shift points, there's quite a few postings if you do a search for "sneaky reset".

It works obviously for me since I'm either in cruise mode most of the week but then reset it after a week.

Here is a quote I'm pulling off one of the posts:

"The ECU reset procedure only erases the ADAPTIVE transmission & throttle settings. It does not erase any of the fuel/timing or other programming.

I've been doing this since I had the car, only I was doing it the hard way; disconnecting the battery terminal overnight. This procedure described is what the techs use when they want to reset those settings.

It works great, but, as soon as you get back into a pattern of slow, constant speed driving, it will go back and you'll have to do this again."

Another Quote:
"The memory in the transmission slowly adapts to you routine driving habits for maximum gas milage and smoothness (I guess). As long as you continue to drive the snot out of it, it will continue to have this pattern of shifting. As soon as you drive normally it will slowly go back to shifting softly and less agressively. According to an article that was quoted here a while back it takes 40 shifts to teach the trans how you drive.
"

Last edited by NRL; 06-01-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: add
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NRL View Post
I think you need Nitrous

Did you turn off ESP?

Have you tried the "sneaky reset" trick? (It resets the adaptive shift points, I do it almost every week or a few days)

1. Turn the ignition key to the on (not start) position.

2. Press the gas pedal to the floor and hold for five seconds.

3. Turn the key to the "off" position (don't remove the key), then release the gas pedal.

4. Wait at least two minutes for ECU to reset.


I use Torque on my Android Phone with a Bluetooth OBDII Connector, gives some data as to what's going on. IAT, Plus Horsepower and 0-60, 100 times..
What are you using?
The thought of nitrous has crossed my mind I have 2 full bottles sitting in my garage! lol. It seems like the car runs on the richer side so I bet nitrous would really help. But I would rather not. I also thought about meth/water just for cooling purposes only since the IAT's get hot fast.

I am using a scanner to log my data so I'm mostly just looking at IAT and boost

I will have to try that reset thanks! Does it reset the ecu too?
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:46 PM
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mifires

Hi Freestylebiker,
I have been struggling with my misfire issues on my cl65 as well that no one can figure out, and have gone through all the initial repairs like what you did. Were you ever able to pinpoint the cause? I'm getting so frustrated!
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by cl55_wil View Post
Hi Freestylebiker,
I have been struggling with my misfire issues on my cl65 as well that no one can figure out, and have gone through all the initial repairs like what you did. Were you ever able to pinpoint the cause? I'm getting so frustrated!
did you replace the coil packs?
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:19 PM
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This was an interesting read, I have a simular problem with my car , since i replaced the spark plugs, the car started to miss and go to limp mode. I checked all the plugs and re-inserted them but still have a problem. I have a star reader and the error codes points to the ignition module, cylinder 5,6 and 11,12 , then after you clear the codes ans take it out for a drive , cylinder 4,5 7,8 give errors. So i guess it could be the ignition module. I dont suppose anyone that has replaced there module has a spare working unit they would like to sell . Just in-case its not this and its the coil packs ..Try the cheapest option first then work through the rest.

thanks
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
This was an interesting read, I have a simular problem with my car , since i replaced the spark plugs, the car started to miss and go to limp mode. I checked all the plugs and re-inserted them but still have a problem. I have a star reader and the error codes points to the ignition module, cylinder 5,6 and 11,12 , then after you clear the codes ans take it out for a drive , cylinder 4,5 7,8 give errors. So i guess it could be the ignition module. I dont suppose anyone that has replaced there module has a spare working unit they would like to sell . Just in-case its not this and its the coil packs ..Try the cheapest option first then work through the rest.

thanks
Always a cheaper and quick option.
I went your route first with the ignition module first since it was cheaper and real easy to replace, a few other had done so too..
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:42 PM
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not sure yet
thanks for the reply , it seems the best route to tackle first .
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by michel lane View Post
This was an interesting read, I have a simular problem with my car. I have a star reader and the error codes points to the ignition module, cylinder 5,6 and 11,12 , then after you clear the codes ans take it out for a drive , cylinder 4,5 7,8 give errors. So i guess it could be the ignition module. I dont suppose anyone that has replaced there module has a spare working unit they would like to sell . Just in-case its not this and its the coil packs ..Try the cheapest option first then work through the rest.
Hi,

I own a 2004 Mercedes SL600 (R230 chassis with the 5.5L twin turbo V12 engine) with just under 35k miles on it. I am a degreed mechanical engineer working in the automotive industry, most of it within professional motorsports. Prior to this had been an ASE Master Technician for ten years, so Iím very comfortable and skilled with all things mechanical, and have always performed my own vehicle maintenance and repairs. Unfortunately at this time I do not have access to a STAR diagnostic tool, or other advanced electronic test equipment, beyond a standard digital multi-meter.

A little more than a year ago the engine would occasionally misfire during WOT and then continue to run very roughly as though it were in limp-home mode. This would only happen once in a while, say 10% of the time that I would jump on it, and I found that I could simply pull to the side of the road, shut off the engine, and upon restarting everything would immediately return to normal. Sometimes when this occurred it would trip the MIL/CEL, other times it wouldnít. On the few occasions that it has tripped the MIL/CEL, the light has always gone out on its own after a few days.

Researching this condition on the web, it appeared to me that it was most likely caused be a defective ignition voltage transformer, ignition coil pack(s), or spark plugs. Given the cost of these items, the uncertainty of exactly which item(s) might be the root cause of the misfire, and the relative infrequency of the problem, I chose ignore the issue.

About six months ago I had driven the car approximately ten miles and parked it for 25 minutes or so while running errands. When I returned to the car and attempted to restart the engine, it was difficult to start, and then stalled. I had to restart the engine several times before finally being able to pull away from the parking spot. The engine ran quite rough (as though it were in limp-home mode) although after a minute or so I tried shutting the engine off, and sure enough it then restarted and ran normally (although the MIL/CEL remained illuminated). It has since done this on several other occasions, always on warm days, and always after the engine has fully reached operating temperature, then heat-soaked for some period of time.

I should mention that at some point several months ago I read the diagnostic codes from the OBDII connector and it indicated P0300 (P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected) as well as various other P03xx (Cylinder xx Misfire Detected). An important thing to note is that the diagnostic codes indicated the misfires were not limited to one cylinder bank, rather they were detected on both sides. While itís obviously possible that both ignition coils are defective, it seems more likely to me that the ignition voltage transformer is that more likely cause Ė although I have read of several people having this component replaced, and still having issues.

During the past week the issue has become much more serious, or at least more inconvenient. After parking the car for 15 minutes or so, I was unable to restart the engine. As the starter cranked the engine, it almost appeared that there was no compression at all Ė it seemed to spin very quickly. After several unsuccessful attempts, I opened the hood to allow things to cool off, and then after approximately 30 minutes the engine started and ran normally.

A few days ago while idling in line at the drive-up ATM, the engine completely shut off and refused to restart. When the engine quit it appeared to do so immediately, as though a switch had been thrown. The temperature gauge indicated approximately 100 - 110 degrees C when it cut out. Once again I had to open the hood and wait approximately 30 minutes for things to cool down to approximately 85 degrees C before it could be restarted (normally). It has since done this one more time, this time only after about 10 minutes of driving. The MIL/CEL has not illuminated during any of these occurrences. I have not yet experienced this issue during the winter, or when the temperature gauge has read below 90 degrees C.

The latest issue (engine cutting out while running) suggests to me that the ignition transformer is most likely at fault. I also wonder if this is actually the same issue as the previous misfiring condition, or perhaps is a completely separate and unrelated problem. At this point Iím inclined to replace the ignition voltage transformer, although Iíd really like to test and confirm that this is indeed the root cause, rather than simply changing an expensive part and hoping for the best. Obviously if I had a known good part I could simply allow the engine to warm up until it shut itself down, and then immediately swap the transformer and attempt to start the engine to confirm if it was the source of the problem. Unfortunately I donít know of anyone with an R230 V12 that could loan me a known-good transformer, and I suspect any that I were to purchase new could not be returned if it were found to not be the source of my current issues.

Is there a means of testing the ignition voltage transformer, either on or off the vehicle? Do you agree that this is the most likely root cause of the latest problem? How about the initial issue I had (the random misfiring at WOT)? Is there anything else that Iíve overlooked in my diagnosis that should be checked and verified? Despite having never taken any of my vehicles to a dealer for service, is this an issue that they could more effectively diagnose and verify?

Sorry for the long initial post but thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions that you guys may have. I look forward to contributing what I can to this forum in the future.

Jim
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Paragon V12 View Post
The latest issue (engine cutting out while running) suggests to me that the ignition transformer is most likely at fault. I also wonder if this is actually the same issue as the previous misfiring condition, or perhaps is a completely separate and unrelated problem. At this point I’m inclined to replace the ignition voltage transformer, although I’d really like to test and confirm that this is indeed the root cause, rather than simply changing an expensive part and hoping for the best.
I should mention that at this stage I haven't yet ruled out the crank position sensor as the root cause, as this could have not only caused the misfiring on both cylinder banks, but a defective CPS is also known to cause a no-start condition, especially when warm.

Before replacing anything, I'm planning to see if I can recreate the no-start condition at home and attempt to quickly cool the sensor with compressed air. If this reduces the restart delay from the usual 30 minutes or so down to a few minutes, that will confirm the fault lies with the CPS.

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Old 06-02-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Paragon V12 View Post
I should mention that at this stage I haven't yet ruled out the crank position sensor as the root cause, as this could have not only caused the misfiring on both cylinder banks, but a defective CPS is also known to cause a no-start condition, especially when warm.

Before replacing anything, I'm planning to see if I can recreate the no-start condition at home and attempt to quickly cool the sensor with compressed air. If this reduces the restart delay from the usual 30 minutes or so down to a few minutes, that will confirm the fault lies with the CPS.

Jim
Jim, I am going through this exact same problem. I have a list small list of parts I will be trying, as of now new head gaskets and the Ignition Control Module. It is unlikely the CPS is the culprit. I was with a friend who has a CL55 multiple times when his car died and became a bit familiar with the CPS, as we replaced it in his garage. The CPS as far as I know from what we went through would not cause random misfires, rather it would kill the car if it was overheating or prevent it from restarting when it did die. CPS fixed his issue but again, he never misfired. Otherwise I would probably be looking at it as well..

For those who had issues with the coils, would the car randomly die as well? Or was it just misfire/limp mode? It seems if the car dies its more likely the ignition module but I'm no mechanical engineer, just going by what people have experienced.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:59 PM
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Jim, the OBD2 misfire codes are probably the key to diagnosing the problem. If you have a bad coil pack, you will get misfires on one bank (that's what I had, and its not uncommon). If the misfires are randomly distributed, that points to the ignition power supply.

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Old 12-22-2014, 09:43 PM
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2004 SL600
Originally Posted by Paragon V12 View Post
I should mention that at this stage I haven't yet ruled out the crank position sensor as the root cause...

I realize this thread is pretty old, but I just wanted to provide a brief update for the benefit of anyone else experiencing similar symptoms.

I ultimately determined that while the issues I was having may or may not have been interrelated, the stalling at elevated temperatures was most likely due to a defective crank position sensor. Given that this was the least expensive option under consideration anyway, I opted to go ahead and replace it. Since replacing the CPS I have not had a reoccurrence of the engine stalling, even after extended idling during the summer months.

Unfortunately I'm not able to report the same with regard to the hard starting and multiple misfires after a 15-20 minute heat soak with the engine off. Although it does not seem to occur as frequently as it did prior to replacing the CPS, it still nevertheless gives me trouble from time-to-time. While it's possible the CPS heat soaks above its rated temperature range (-40F to +300F) I suspect that the issue actually lies somewhere else - perhaps something within the ignition transformer overheating.

There definitely appears to be a relatively narrow window where the heat soak builds up enough to cause hard starting. If I shut the car off for only 5-10 minutes, it tends to restart normally. If I allow the car to sit for 45 minutes or more, it seems to cool off enough to start fine. Somewhere between 15 - 30 minutes seems to cause the most repeatable issue.

I plan to install some temporary ducting to the ignition transformer at some point just to verify whether or not increased airflow after engine shutdown will eliminate the issue. If so I'll try to better insulate the transformer from engine heat, and if that doesn't solve the issue, ultimately I may need to replace it.

Finally, with regard to the random misfires during WOT, it appears that these are most likely due to an issue with the throttle position sensor located within the accelerator pedal. After clearing all the active DTC codes, I was able to trip the MIL/CEL light and record a P0123 (Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit High Input) DTC while parked in the garage with the engine off/ignition in the number II position, by simply pressing the kick-down switch repeatedly with my finger.

I'm not interested in spending several hundreds of dollars on a new accelerator pedal just because the integral kick-down button has an apparent defect in it. I'd be interested to know i anyone has ever successfully taken one of these apart to correct whatever issue is causing the electrical spike?
If anyone has any thoughts with regard to this or the heat soak issue, please let me know.

Jim
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