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SL500 Manual transmission?
a friend of mine is considering buying a 2000 SL500. he prefers a manual transmission but the SL only came with an auto in the last few years. i figured we could just swap in a manual.
i have a nissan 240sx so i'm of the attitude that anything is possible given the time and money. my friend however won't want this car to be hacked up too much or be down for too long so i was hoping there was a manual transmission offered with the 5.0 V8 somewhere that would fit. i assume the other parts like trim pieces and pedals could be pulled from an SL300 five speed. if you could direct me toward some more info, including the engine and transmission codes (not the CEL codes that i always seem to pull up when searching), that would be really helpful. also if rough estimate of cost would be helpful. thanks. |
Car will be down possibly forever and it will be as costly as the car itself. Cannot be done in any reasonable way.
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i don't see how that's possible. i could custom fit a t56 or something like that for $10k or less if i really wanted to. unless there's something i'm missing, which it would be nice if you shared with me.
any other info that would help me search, like the engine code? i find it hard to believe that mercedes never put a manual on this V8 even in europe. |
The automatic is electronic.
What are you going to tell the computer about your new transmission? |
well, i need to find a transmission first. i found some more info, but not much progress. the engine number of the '00 SL500 is 113.961. assuming the codes are like the chassis codes (first 3 are the important ones, last three are iterations) then anything with a 113 prefix will probably share transmissions. any ideas on which transmissions match?
what signals are the ECU looking for? the manual will have some sensors, probably the same ones but with different signals. anything from the ECU to the transmission can probably be ignored. an ECU pin out would help i guess. on a side note, he decided to get the car, here it is. http://www.dasvc.com/usedCAR3.htm |
Hi!
The only SL 129 Model with manual transmission was the 320 SL with a 6 cylinder engine. The 500 SL was never fitted with a manual transmission. To retrofit a manual gearbox in a 500 Model will be difficult. Hope this is helping. MarkusL |
Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1812133)
i don't see how that's possible. i could custom fit a t56 or something like that for $10k or less if i really wanted to. unless there's something i'm missing, which it would be nice if you shared with me.
any other info that would help me search, like the engine code? i find it hard to believe that mercedes never put a manual on this V8 even in europe. |
Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1815581)
then anything with a 113 prefix will probably share transmissions.
Of course Mercedes NEVER mated a manual to an M113 V8. |
Originally Posted by lkchris
(Post 1826061)
You're right.
Of course Mercedes NEVER mated a manual to an M113 V8. my friend got the car and i got a ride in it. it's nice but less than exciting. waiting for the transmission to respond takes all the fun out of it.
Originally Posted by sosh
(Post 1824551)
That transmission will not bolt up nor will the input shaft fit, nor will it bolt up to the mounts. Adapters must be engineered, a clutch designed and built. Now all you have is the problem that the engine will not run correctly as its receiving no transmission input from the automatic sensors which the transmission you mentioned does not have and can't be installed. Try it, be a test pilot and be part of the crash!! By the time you are done with the engineering, machine work, etc. you will have spent maybe 50 to 60 grand and it still won't work!!
here are some generous estimates camaro 6 speed $1000 bellhousing adapter $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made) custom flywheel $1000 (match M113 ring gear and bolt circle and use a camaro clutch) camaro clutch $500 (no deed to design and build anything, you could get one at autozone) custom driveshaft $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made) interior parts from SL320 $500 electronics $500 (signal from stock speed sensor, reverse sensor, etc can be adjusted, signals from ECU can be rewired to give a false signal so the engine runs properly) that only adds up to $5500 even if you double that it's still only $11k. nowhere near the $50-60k you pulled out of your ass. will it actually work? i don't know, but your *****ing certainly isn't helping. |
You posted your idea, however dumb it is on a public forum and you got my response. Try if if you wish but your going to end up with a piece of junk and lots of cash out the door. FYI, I have most likely worked on more cars than you have even owned. I surmise you are maybe 18 yrs old and I guess this may be a lesson for you. But then again you have nothing to lose, its not your car.
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Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1866255)
it's really not that complicated if you know what you're doing. a guy put a six speed into a 740iL. granted the engine had one in other cars but it's not too far off. You also can't compare the 740IL swap to what your trying to do because all it is is an ECU swap,console swap,flywheel and driveshaft swap with a 540I-6. Alot simpler conversion. |
Originally Posted by coolcarlskiC43
(Post 1866390)
I'm sure something can be done ,granted you use a standalone computer ,build a custom adapter and bolt up a tranny. But in my opinion it will be expensive and not worth it. Better off supercharging the car for the $$$.
You also can't compare the 740IL swap to what your trying to do because all it is is an ECU swap,console swap,flywheel and driveshaft swap with a 540I-6. Alot simpler conversion.
Originally Posted by sosh
(Post 1866388)
FYI, I have most likely worked on more cars than you have even owned. I surmise you are maybe 18 yrs old and I guess this may be a lesson for you. But then again you have nothing to lose, its not your car.
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Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1866255)
****, i figured that would come out sooner or later, at least you're helpful. is the M119 or M112 similar enough to share transmissions? and if so did those ever come with a manual?
my friend got the car and i got a ride in it. it's nice but less than exciting. waiting for the transmission to respond takes all the fun out of it. jesus, man. why do you have to be such a downer? it's not your car or your money, why would you offer anything other than encouragement? have you ever actually worked on a car? i mean more than just wiping yours with a diaper? it's really not that complicated if you know what you're doing. a guy put a six speed into a 740iL. granted the engine had one in other cars but it's not too far off. here are some generous estimates camaro 6 speed $1000 bellhousing adapter $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made) custom flywheel $1000 (match M113 ring gear and bolt circle and use a camaro clutch) camaro clutch $500 (no deed to design and build anything, you could get one at autozone) custom driveshaft $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made) interior parts from SL320 $500 electronics $500 (signal from stock speed sensor, reverse sensor, etc can be adjusted, signals from ECU can be rewired to give a false signal so the engine runs properly) that only adds up to $5500 even if you double that it's still only $11k. nowhere near the $50-60k you pulled out of your ass. will it actually work? i don't know, but your *****ing certainly isn't helping. The more interesting thing is the electronics- the engine module works very closely with the trans module for lots of things (timing,fuel, cruise control even). The other hitch is that it is programmed to commit suicide if it sees a different VIN than its married number (ie: if you put in one out of another car, it thinks it is being stolen). The guys that are out there building the performance ECUs may be able to help with this- they obviousy have the codes (they used all 2 digit coding back then ((and still)) to tell the module what kind of car is was in) and may be able to change it to manual trans. All that being said, I think you are de-valuing the car, but it's up to you.. |
Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1866731)
actually i think the parts came from a german 740i, but i wanted to show that just because it's a big german car doesn't mean it has to be saddled by an automatic. the suprecharger isn't going to happen, like the pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control" my car has half the power and is probably as fast in most situations.
it sure doesn't sound like it, i guess it depends on your definition of "worked on". and thanks for surmising. you were off by almost a decade and it didn't get us anywhere. |
Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1866731)
like the pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control" my car has half the power and is probably as fast in most situations.
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Originally Posted by MBTech21
(Post 1867105)
Ok, rather than just dismissing it, I thought about this project, and here is what I can figure out. The 119-not close, the 112 has the same block pattern, so a trans out of a C240 manual (716.623;634 or 638) would bolt to it. Not sure what the flywheel would do to engine balance as one has a balance shaft, and the other doesn't.
The more interesting thing is the electronics- the engine module works very closely with the trans module for lots of things (timing,fuel, cruise control even). The other hitch is that it is programmed to commit suicide if it sees a different VIN than its married number (ie: if you put in one out of another car, it thinks it is being stolen). The guys that are out there building the performance ECUs may be able to help with this- they obviousy have the codes (they used all 2 digit coding back then ((and still)) to tell the module what kind of car is was in) and may be able to change it to manual trans. All that being said, I think you are de-valuing the car, but it's up to you.. the flywheel and balance shaft shouldn't be a problem, since the shafts are usually driven on the front end of the engine. but then again, i obviously know nothing about MB engines so maybe i'm wrong. either way the V8 doesn't have one so it should be easier than vice versa. the electronics sound like a huge pain in the ass. what exactly commits suicide? is it the computer? that would make sense but seems goofy. ('i know, i'll steal this SL and swap the transmissions, the first step in my plan to take over the world!') who cares if the transmissions are swapped, it just sounds overly complex. too bad it took four mentions of electronics for someone to state some actual information. is it impossible to run the necessary sensor outputs from the trans into the TCU and loop the outputs from the TCU so it thinks everything is OK. or even drop the TCU altogether and do that with the ECU. like you said, that's probably a question for the tuners. my friend used to drive a '93 volvo 850 that he is basically giving away ($10) and he will likely keep the SL for a very long time so end value isn't much of a concern, but you are probably right. |
Originally Posted by coolcarlskiC43
(Post 1867872)
That statement clearly has NOTHING to do with the tranny! Does not fully apply! :crazy:
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Originally Posted by sosh
(Post 1867145)
If I am a decade off that makes you either 8 or 28. Either way I have more than 3 decades more experience than you. Some people are so stubborn and hardheaded that they only learn by life's experiences. trying to save you that grief but from your attitude you have most likely heard that before.
so far this has cost me nothing except some spare time. i'm not going to dive in without knowing where i'm going and how i'm getting there. if everyone had the same attitude you are advocating there would be no tuner market and you would have to find some other place to complain about young wipper-snappers. |
Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1868168)
if everyone had the same attitude you are advocating there would be no tuner market and you would have to find some other place to complain about young wipper-snappers.
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Originally Posted by mleskovar
(Post 1868602)
Why don't you ask a 'tuner' how much they would charge you to do it and get back to the forum with the price?
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Why would he what a manual transmission, automatics are faster, can transfer more torque than manuals and produce less shock loads. If it’s a road track car, yes a manual would be better, but for a daily driver and occasional street race, automatic. For more power, twin turbo or super charger
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Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1868898)
any recommendations?
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Originally Posted by C32AMG/02
(Post 1868987)
Why would he what a manual transmission, automatics are faster, can transfer more torque than manuals and produce less shock loads. If it’s a road track car, yes a manual would be better, but for a daily driver and occasional street race, automatic. For more power, twin turbo or super charger
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RENNtech has offered these conversions in the past....I think the cost was around $20K.
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Originally Posted by cdlong
(Post 1869974)
speed isn't as much of an issue as driver involvement. and street racing (or even drag) is probably the last thing on his mind. even still, how can an automatic transfer more torque? given the same gear ratios, the torque output would be higher with a manual because of lower drivetrain losses.
Advantages of an automatic transmission, with a planetary gear set you can shift under extreme torque loads, constant gear engagement with several gears ratios, less shifting time and loss of torque, less shock load, Dump a clutch in a manual transmission with a 600,700,800 HP motor and you are going to drop some parts, rear, drive shaft, transmission gears. Yes, you will have some parasitic HP loss with a torque converter, but a torque converter is what its name implies, what you lose in HP you will gain in TORQUE, the stator in a torque converter helps in turning the engine at a ratio of 2:1 in some converters. Cars with low ETs and engines with 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000HP are 98% automatics or direct drive transmissions. |
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