Darkmann

'01E430: I promised I'd post results of my oil analysis and I have it. The analysis was performed by Oil Analysis lab, Inc., Spokane, WA. My driving style involves daily short trips of less than 10 miles to & back from work, weekend highway trips, usually over 100 miles and usually at an average speed of 75MPH. Maximum sustained speed is 95MPH for several miles. Max speed attained is 120MPH, several brief moments since purchased. The FSS called for first "A" service at just over 13,100 miles. At 13,066 miles I took it in. The oil is Mobil 1 0W40. The analysis is grouped in four categories - Physical Data, Metal Concentrations, Additive Package and Maintenance Recommendations (for those interested, the actual test data is given at the end of this post). In all but Metal Concentration, everything is normal. Infact, at 13K miles, I think that the oil did pretty well. In Metal Moncentration, Silicon is slightly less than moderate and its contamination is causing abbrasive wear (silicon is from airborne dirt). Aluminum and copper are moderate and should be monitored. Maintenance Recommendation calls for oil & filter to be changed if not done yet and that the metal concentrations are most likely from engine break-in.

Here's the result data:

A) Physical Data
Viscosity: 11.7 cST @ 100C
Fuel Dilution: 0%
Soot: 0
Oxidation: 0
Nitration: 0
Water: 0%
Anti-freeze: 0%
B) Metal Concentration (parts per million by weight)
Silicon: 78 - requires monitoring
Iron: 50
Chromium: 2
Aluminum: 28 - requires monitoring
Copper: 29 - requires monitoring
Lead: 19
Tin: 0
Nickel: 1
Silver: 0
C) Additive Package (parts per million by weight)
Molybdenum: 1
Magnesium: 709
Sodium: 21
Titanium: 0
Boron: 3
Potassium: 8
Calcium: 1457
Zinc: 1116
Barium: 4
Phosphorus: 1206


I'm somewhat concerned about the Silicon but don't know what to do about it. I'll resample at next oil change.

awiner

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the results and please keep us updated if you get your oil analized again. I myself still don't buy into the 10,000+ mile change interval.

Darkmann

Now that I have the results, I'd recommend to ignore the FSS and do the first oil change in the 3-5K range, then follow the FSS recommendation. The reason for this is not the oil - it'll hold its own past 10K (see viscosity number). The problem is the wear metals in the new engine and the silicon. The wear metals must cause some havoc in there and the silicon tells me that my intake breathing system is not up to snuff - air filter, maybe??? My FSS is calling for first B service at 9K miles. I'll do an intermediate oil change at around 5K before the FSS recommended time. Just makes me feel better. Also keep in mind that one has to establish a trend to make any sense of these revelations. I'd say 3-4 oil analyses will tell a much more accurate story - by then, I'll probably be driving a newer model E anyway!!!

speedybenz

Are you kidding. I would NEVER, NEVER wait 3,000 miles or up to 10,000 miles to change the oil the first time. You should be changing it at about 500 miles. And make sure to run a good 10-40wt non-synth. oil like Valvoline for the next 500 miles. During this 500 mile stint you should be running the engine hard, very hard to seat the rings and get everything well broken in.

Then change the oil at a total of 1000 miles to a good synth. oil like Mobil 1, 5-30wt.

If you do the above your car will develop maximum ring seal and thus maximum Hp and it won't burn any oil.

My cars have gone over 150,000 miles and they never burn any oil between 4,000 mile oil change interval.


Also the lifetime ATF is total B.S. Change it at about every 10,000 to 25,000 miles. You can use the Mobil 1 synth. ATF. It works very good or better than the expensive MB stuff.

Same goes for the rear differential.

Jeff
Richey Racing

Darkmann

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, you've been up too late man. You race, maybe, we don't. YES, you can wait up to 10K miles to change your oil the first time. There are thousands of vehicles out there today that do that, and still running strong. If there were problems, the Bimmers, MB's, the Vettes and Porches of the world would've let us all know. BTW, most people dont keep these cars 'till they die!!! And what's this BS about running a good non-syn 10-40wt oil? Where do you get your data from? That's total nonsense (remember, non racing here!!!). Synthetics, from start to finish, are better - ask GM, BMW, MB, PORSCHE, NASA's SST vehicles, etc, etc. They all recommend it. Plus, there's plenty of data to show that the oil change schedules on these vehicles are appropriate - again we're not racing here - not yet, except to space where the competition is ZERO. The rings will seat - you don't have to run the motor VERY HARD. As a matter of fact, running the motor VERY HARD within the first 1K mile may actually promote premature engine wear.

I have had several high performence vehicles in my 35+ years of driving. One thing I have noticed is that engine oil should really be changed approximately every 5K miles, after doing the first change at near 3K when new. But keep in mind that regular periodic maintenance has to follow from that point. Most people don't follow through on regular maintenance. I have racked more tha 130K miles on three vehicles I currently have - '91 Integra, 95 Pathfinder, 89 300ZX Turbo. They all have been driven hard and I haven't had any problems with 5K Mobil 1 oil changes - even 5W30 on the Integra and Pathfinder. So you see my friend, we all have our stories and expiriences and no one experience is supreme. I'll stick to 5K oil change intervals and you stick to 4K. We both win!!! The oil companies have figured this out a long time ago but just won't tell you.

I totally agree with you that the lifetime ATF stuff is BS. At 50K, mine will be gone - again I'll do an analysis. However, without solid data, don't expect to convince anyone with blanket statements!!!

awiner

My concern is not that the synthetic oil will break down, but that the tiny oil filter Mercedes uses wont be able to filter the oil adequately for 10,000+ miles. I first changed my oil at 1,500 miles and do so every 5,000 miles thereafter. I let Mercedes pick up the tab at the A and B service's.

CLK 320

I do exactly what Adam does. I consider it insurance, even if it extends the period in which MB will pay for my next service. Darkmann, was this the first oil change on this vehicle?

Darkmann

Yes, it was the first oil change. I must admit that the system worked quite well at 13K. And, yes I agree that Adam's suggestion is on target. I'm really curious to see what trend develops. It's very interesting because there's really no solid database for MB vehicles that use the FSS recommendations. MB probably has some data and it'd be nice if they shared that with some of us. Don't ask me why I'm doing this, probably my curious engineering mind!!!

patrick

Darkman, why ignore the FSS? Do you believe those metal concentrations will do harm? Keep on using your Mobil 1, follow the FSS, and open up the engine at about 150000 miles. Do you really think there will be significant wear? Ask people who do this regularly (Mercedes engines).
What do you mean with "solid database for MB vehicles that use the FSS recommendations"? Do you want to know more about it?
Speedybenz, where do you come from? I guess it is a long time ago that you have seen a Mercedes engine from nearby. You're telling stories from 30 years ago.
Excuse me if something is not quite clear, but I am not English-speaking.
Patrick

Darkmann

Oh, your english is very good and you're quite clear. I expect my E430 to last well over 200K miles. If I had to do it over, I'll ignore the FSS during the first 5-6K miles - won't hurt anything anyway. There is no scientific reason for this except to "feel good" - xtra insurance, if you will. This leads to my next point: insufficient data. I believe the FSS technology was inatalled in MB's beginning in 1998. That's barely 5 years (and during the first year, it seemed like they had several problems), which is around 50-70K miles for many people. We don't have very high mileage cars yet on the road to completely access the FSS performance on a statistically valid basis. I'm sure MB did several months of testing. However, nothing beats true world performance data (which is free, by the way) provided by consumer feedback. When it is shown that the performance of the FSS is statistically successful in very high mileage cars, a lot more people will believe in the technology.

jswedberg

Every time this subject comes up - several people say "well, I'm gonna keep on changing my oil every 100 miles just to be safe."

Certainly there is no harm in that.

But I doubt Mercedes would allow such long intervals world-wide without researching it.

It's not just brand-new Mercedes, either. My 1997 Porsche 993 was supposed to go in for service once a year or every 15,000 miles, whichever come first.

Darkmann

The technology is great and very good for the environment, if I may add. What the manufacturer's have to do is promote it - like Mobil does it's Mobil 1. Show what happens after several miles on the car/engine. I don't think that these companies have this data yet (in the US, at least) since the technology is still relatively new. Obviously, they they can't use their in-house test data to promote the technology. Such statistically valid data has to come from engine inspections on consumer vehicles (and this is free information for manufacturers, BTW), and this won't happen for another 3-5 years.

The interesting thing is that, most of us who insist on early oil changes end up trading the car for a newer model anyway, before we even get a chance to see the effects of more frequent oil changes.

speedybenz

Darkmann,

I do not disagree you can keep a good oil in the car for 3000, 4000, or even 8000 miles.

Its the break-in procedure I disagree with. You should break your motor in on non-syntechic oil whether or not the engine is a race motor or not. It really makes no difference.

On either motor if you don't achieve good ring seal the motor will not run at its best.

And to get the rings to seat in properely they must see lots of combustion pressure which pushes the rings out to the bore surfaces hard and causes the rings to form the best possible seal.

The above is not only my comments but just about every good engine tuner in the would agree. My experinence is based on building and maintaining race and street motors for over 15 years.

When I get my friends and cowrkers to follow the correct break-in procedure they all are very suprised at how much more snap the motor developes which equates to more available Hp.

The other benefit is zero oil burning in 4000 to 8000 miles and reduced emissions.

Jeff

jswedberg

I was under the impression that the seating of the rings occurs by varying the load on the engine during the first 1000 miles. Why would non-synthetic oil make a difference?

The major difference between "natural" and synthetic is the variance in long-chain polymers, isn't it? Synthetics have less variance, that's why they last longer.

Of course, If you change the oil frequently, there should be no difference - just use non-synthetic since it's cheaper.

sosh

Re the high silicone, this could be as a result of the aluminum block material which I believe is impregnated with silicone. Remember also that oil analysis results are really only any good if done regularly and a trend is plotted. Results of only one test is almost but not totally useless.

Darkmann

Thanks Sosh. I do plan to do more tests as I change the oil. Unfortunately, the change intervals are so long that by the time I obtain a satisfactory trend, it'll be time to upgrade to a 2003E.

sosh

Thats really my point. I keep a vehicle 3 or 4 years max. Oil analysis does not make sense for me and it will have absolutly no effect on what I get for the vehicle when I sell it and in addition its quite unlikely that the future owner would care. In the case of aircraft that I have owned where an engine overhaul can cost 250000 to 500000 it matters and buyers pay attention to it. In my boat that I have owned for 12 years and fish 100 miles offshore it matters ( I sample every change every 100 hours) and I have caught an accessory drive gear (Detroit Diesel) about to fail which made it a simple repair instead of an overhaul.

Mike T.

I would suspect that the lab that said there might be a lot of sandy particulates getting into the engine through the air filter is not aware of the Nikasil cylinder bores in the Mercedes Vee engines.

The relatively high Al and Si in the test sample would most likely be attributable to break-in.

It'd be interesting to know if the wear by-products of the Nikasil hardness coatings are really abrasive to engine bearings...that would seem to be unlikely, or if it's true, I'd be surprised that Mercedes-Benz would make a mistake like that. Some manufacturers like Peugeot used to put special oil filters on their brand new cars at the factory, to filter out far smaller particulates than a normal filter would. All subsequent filters were not as efficient. Maybe M-B could/should/does do this?

I must say, I've always wondered why M-B went the Chevrolet Vega route by running the pistons in Al bores - treated for hardness or not, what happens when the engine needs a rebore? Bore oversized into raw Al, only to watch the rebuilt engine wear out in record time, bore out then treat the bores again with Nikasil (how/where??), bore out A LOT and fit dry cast iron cylinder liners, or chuck the engine block out and start over. Does any techy person know the answer to that one?

In any case, our C 230 K has the M111 4 cylinder engine with a good ol' cast iron block

Darkmann

Thanks, Mike T. Actually, the lab suggested that the most likely reason reason for the Si and Al in engine wear-in. The above discussion between Sosh and myself underscores the point. These analyses are only good when a trend is developed and most of us won't wait 'till then to buy another vehicle. I was just very curious to see how the FSS performs, allowing me to go over 13K miles before the first oil change. I plan to do 2-3 more analyses to track the performance of the FSS - just my curiosity.

mleskovar

The oil change religion is still alive and well. I folllow the FSS and feel I am changing the oil prematurely. FSS has been in use by MB before they started using/recommending synthetic oil and the intervals haven't changed at all. I believe the FSS system is based on starts/revs/miles and not oil sampling. If it recommends 13K miles for fossil oil then 13K for synthetic is overkill. On another forum a chemical engineer posted how he did research for MB on the use of synthetic oil in the early 90s. He said two things.....1. At 25K miles the synthetic oil was still good. 2. Lead in gas reacted with synthetic oil and left a harmful residue inside the engine, that's why it's becoming popular now. Only time will tell.

Darkmann

If you run 13K fossil oil changes on a new engine, you won't last 50K miles. The FSS monitors several parameters including the ones you pointed out. However, driving style is the primary killer of engine oil. Long idles, short trip in high traffic with A/C on, vs long highway trips at steady speed - these are two very different driving scenarios and the oil will degrade faster for for short trips - synthetic or not. The chemical engineer most likely did a controlled experiment. The driving public is anything but controlled. 13K is NOT overkill. As a matter of fact, it's pushing it a bit. Here's the point: in the US at least, MB hasn't shown the consumer data indicating that engine performance does not degrade at high mileage, if service was performed following the FSS schedule. Based on the start of the FSS, I don't see how Mb can have a statistically valid real world database to confirm this. We'll have to wait another 3-5 yrs. Way before that time, I'll most likely be driving a new MB, anyway. So apart from curiosity, it all doesn't really matter.

mleskovar

"...you won't last 50K miles"...well there are some facts that we can go from . FSS has been around longer than MB started using synthetic oil. There have been no complaints I am aware of about premature engine wear for cars going beyond 100K miles. The point I was making is that those cars using fossil oil with FSS have the the same service cycle at those with synthetic....which is proven to last many times longer than fossil oil. I think it's just oil religion and the inability to understand modern engine/oil technology that gets people to change oil too often.

Darkmann

I admit ignorance to the start of FSS!! But did MB really do this (recommend 10-13K change intervals on fissils) before switching to synthetics? On what models? I do understand what you're saying. The problem I have is that MB does not agressively advertise this technology and so people tend not to "trust" it. If it's been there as long as you say, they really should provide data to show that supports engine endurance during FSS cycles. Mobil-1 does with pics of before/after and that's why a lot of people believe Mobil-1 does what it says. I wish MB would provide data (at least in the US). However, I still don't think that fossil are stable enough to be cycled between 10-13K change intervals without causing serious damage to an engine - I just haven't seen any supporting data. If you have something, let me know. I'm really curious now.

darkLCD

Yes, MB did start FSS with non-synthetic oil. I confirmed this with a mb tech a while back. I don't recall which years. In addition, the current oil filter for our cars running synthetic oil is the same filter they used with non-synthetic oil in the past which is kind of disappointing.

Having worked on cars in the past, I do agree with speedybenz that seating the rings with non-synthetic oil first is preferable. Then immediately swapping to a synthetic oil on the first oil change. I know for a fact that Porsche in the past used to ship their cars straight from the factory with non-synthetic oil in them and then changing them to a synthetic oil upon the first oil change without the owner being the wiser. I don't know if this is still the current practice.

awiner

Yup, up until the model year 2000, FSS cars came with fossil oil. Mercedes ended up seeing a lot of problems from running fossil oil 13,000 miles. Lots of sludge and other associated problems, not to mention more than a few engine rebuilds while under warranty. As of 8/2001 (I think) there has been a TSB out that states it is recommended that all FSS equipped vehicles will now get synthetic oil. Dealer Service Depts were advised to run Synthetic in all FSS equipped vehicels even if they originally came with fossil oil. I'll see if I can dig up the TSB. I have it and the letter from MB around here somewhere.