K-A

F10 5-Series: 38k nm's of torsional rigidity. W212 E Class: 29.9k nm's of torsional rigidity. Not even close as the F10 is almost 30% stiffer and you can feel it when you drive them. W212's start to rattle early from my experience (and "rattle" threads get lots of action on the E forum). The F10 chassis was so over engineered in substantiality and stiffness as it is just a smaller version of what comes under much more expensive cars such as the 7 Series and Ghost.

Germancar1

Amazingly, do you even know what they're saying in the test?

Now let me guess because of that figure BMWs don't rattle and all Mercedes' do?


Now wait a min, aren't the same idiot who argued every member on German car forum that the E-Class was a superior vehicle just a year ago? Pulling all type of info off the net about crash structures and rigidity?

M

K-A

Man, denial runs thick doesn't it, even in the face of factual evidence with subjective opinion backed by specific experience based breakdowns.

The 535i is technically a competitor to the E350, so it's a price-point lower than the E400 and it got #1 to it. They broke down merits of each on a star basis and clearly gave the F10 a higher rating on design and handling which presumedly is what helped it best the E400 (aside from getting more for a more bargain price). Even in straight line performance the 535i holds up outstandingly well to the higher-positioned E400.

As for rattles, I use the facts of the figures being that the F10 is 30% stiffer than the E Class and of course most importantly, my own experience. The F10 feels like a tank compared to the W212, it's quieter, more isolating and goes over bumps that disturbed my 2 W212's without a quiver. It also gets universally better crash test ratings.

Yeah, I was an MB loyalist in denial, backing up a car company that let me down over and over again. I opened my eyes, took new experiences for myself, learned what's what firsthand, and seemingly pissed off lots of people for changing my tune along the way, lol.

Germancar1

So in other words you can't read German then either?


Again, aren't you the same person that just a year or so ago argued that the E-Class was the superior car? Even started your own thread about it right?

I see on another board you write:

"Fact of the matter is, both are very safe. If we're talking safety, then this is where weight becomes your friend. That super long nose and 4,000+ lbs (a couple to few hundred pounds heavier than a comparably equipped E Class) will further help the 5-Series in safety."

This right here proves that you have no clue about anything. Weight alone does nothing for safety. Having a longer nose doesn't equate to better safety either.

Aren't you the one that stated the E-Class was a tank also?


I think I've figured out your problem. You're one of those people that can't think for themselves so you take whatever is given to you, or whatever you can google as gospel and then because you feel the need to somehow prove everyone else wrong. The problem is that you're pretty much clueless and you flip and flop in whatever direction your google search engine points you in.

YOU JUST STATED LAST YEAR THAT THE E-CLASS WAS A TANK AND A SUPERIOR CAR TO THE 5-SERIES. YOU EVEN DEVOTED A THREAD TO IT ONLY TO BE PROVED TO BE CLUELESS.


Now because of one test the 535i is superior to the E400, but you can't tell why because you can't read German to even know what they're saying.

That is just plain dumb man.


Nothing official about the E400 in the U.S. market has been stated, all speculation so far. I seriously doubt Mercedes will replace the E500 with a V6 car that has only 27-30 more hp than the regular E350. It doesn't make sense, but we'll see.

Just because it is said to replace the E550 doesn't mean that it is rung up from the 535i. Look at the engines and hp rating. They're both turbo 6's with 300+ hp and similar torque ratings. Hardly a replacement for the E550 or a 550 competitor. Think for yourself sometimes! What price point? When was the E400 priced for the U.S. market? I must have missed that.


Again, no BMWs rattle? All Mercedes' do based on your ratings?

Now the BMW gets better crash test scores, do I need to find the thread on GCF where you stated the opposite was true?


M

K-A

Oh my god man, really with that wall of text?

Yeah, I learned for myself which is better, now I KNOW. Facts to back it up, personal experiences, etc. etc. I can go all day about how the F10 kills the W212 in literally every aspect. Seriously, put the straws down, you're clinging to them too hard. Why don't we get back to the topic at hand?

Germancar1

So in other words, yes it is YOU. You spent weeks telling everyone that the E-Class was superior, now because you bought a 5-Series it is the best car on earth now right?

You're a fraud. Plain and simple. You don't have the ability to think for yourself. You read something and take it word for word as gospel. People post things here and you "say oh I didn't know that" and you run with it.

**** You're touting a comparison test between the 535i and E400 and you don't even know why the E400 lost! *****


You're too simple minded to have an intelligent debate about anything because you never know what you're talking about and when your bull**** is debunked you come back with "well I don't like it" or "this is how I feel about it".


What topic at hand? The S-Class being a facelifted version of the previous car?

You of all people wouldn't know either way, nor can you prove it either way. So again, what are you talking about? Do you know?


The really, really sad part is that you're seemingly oblivious to how loathed you and your opinion are here and seemingly on every board you participate on that isn't BMW based. Everyone else has the problem but you, right? Is that what you tell yourself?

I too moved away from Mercedes with my last purchase and I love my 650i, but guess what I don't do? Come here to tell MB owners how their cars suck. It just isn't cool to do so on brand dedicated board. At Germancarforum you can say what you want because it isn't a collection of just one brand owners. Even there you got banned because you kept talking like a talking head, with no logic.

You and I probably agree on a lot of things that Mercedes could change, but your point will never be heard because of the idiotic and aggravating way you keep presenting it. A lot of personal feelings with very few if any facts. You harped about the E-Class having Chinese content yet you don't know what those parts! How can you know what dislike about the E is related to the Chinese content sticker you saw? You can't.

Now watch as this goes over your head and you reply with something like we're all in denial here.


M

K-A

How dare someone not learn new experiences for themselves and judge accordingly! Problem with car-fansites is that most fanboys stay fanboys of brands, no matter what, they'll follow the brand through thick and thin. I don't, and if BMW makes a car that crushes the E Class in every respect, I'll try it out, and if I like it, I'll buy it.

I too don't go onto car sites and tell everyone how much better my car is. However, every thread I participate in, butthurt fanboys drag my car into it, and then get upset when I tell them how I've drawn my conclusions.

And LOL at you trying to apologize for why the E400 lost to a 535i (maybe it's due to the tangible effects of half of it being comprised of Chinese parts ). Unreal.

Germancar1

See how ridiculous your response is? HOW can I apologize for the E400 losing when for one I didn't cry foul about it losing and secondly I don't even know why it lost? UNLIKE YOU, I would first need the facts so I could take a position on why it lost and whether or not is should have or not. COMMON SENSE, which you seem to lack.

WHAT PARTS OF THE E-CLASS ARE CHINESE MADE? DUE TELL.

I'm a Mercedes fanboy now, when I just like you went elsewhere? MAKES REAL GOOD SENSE. AGAIN, YOU'RE CLUELESS.

Now when you make statements like the 5 crushes the E in all respects, we all know who the fanboy is here, and a juvenille on at that. All respects? Not even the magazines say that. If they do then due show me where, they say that the 5 crushes or beats the E in all respects.

Like I said in my previous post everything I just stated here about your ways went right over your head, so you could repeat the same bull**** again. Its like mud wrestling with a pig. He's ignorant as to how degrading his past time is.

M

K-A

Lol, and if the Benz one you'd be parading around a'la "SEE, Benz's can win comparisons too"!

Not only have I had the article broken down by those who've translated it, but you can see their ratings system clear as day if you actually look it over and not have a characteristically knee-jerk contrarian reaction.

They said it handles better, they said it has a better design, they said they liked the interior better, and they said the lower price point earned it points especially considering how well the 535i held up in a straight line. It doesn't take a PhD to figure out why the F10 is so much better than the W212. BMW simply engineered and executed a car that Mercedes always wanted to in this segment, simple as that. 30% more rigid than the E Class! That's outstanding in itself. The W222 has barely any more torsional rigidity than the F10, you have to respect that.

I'm more tired of talking about the F10 than anyone is of hearing about it. I just find it funny that people always bring my car up into every thread I'm in and then whine when I have to now engage in the new topic they've developed. When I make comments as to why I'm unhappy with a Mercedes it is NOT a veiled attempt to say "my car is better" nor is it an invitation to talk about BMW's (EVERY time someone gets butthurt about my Mercedes comments when BMW isn't even mentioned by me, they drag BMW into it, that's not my problem nor my fault). I'm trying to be topical here. See this thread? No mention of BMW in it, funny how it becomes a discussion about the 5 Series and E Class. Again, not my fault.

HALF OF THE E CLASS ARE CHINESE PARTS!! Can you do math. HALF! That's 50%! Half of it, 1/2! How many more ways do you need it explained?

Shifter

iMO, clearly ka has to defend his f10. Congrats on the car.

On topic , BMW has nothing to compare to the new 222. Same is true in other classes, what I mean by that is classes that BMW does not even build a car to compete. One example SLS. Or (previous) CL's. how about the old SLR. BMW has not been able to keep up with mb IMO.

MB leads the way in tech, everyone else plays catch up. Including BMW. Just as they will be playing catch up to the 222.

Germancar1

YET YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PARTS ARE! IF YOU DO, THEN PLEASE DUE TELL.


So does the article say anywhere that the 5 beats the E on all counts, on everything? The E-Class does nothing better than the 5-Series? Is that what it says? This one test is the bible right?

Just like a child with a new word, now you're stuck on " torsional rigidity" and now you're saying the S-Class has barely more than the 5-Series. This from a person who believes anything that is told to them, and who hasn't driven the S-Class yet.

I could link you to a website that showed you that BMWs float on water and you would believe. You're a gullible fool man.

DON'T YOU SEE THAT JUST A YEAR AGO YOU SAID THAT THE E-CLASS WAS LIKE A TANK AND YOU CREATED AN ENTIRE THREAD AT GCF TO PROVE IT?

NOW SINCE YOU BOUGHT A BMW YOU FEEL THE NEED TO DUMP ON MERCEDES AND THEIR OWNERS.

That makes you really lame. Are you secretly regretting that you're not driving a Benz anymore? Is that it?

Why are you here?

You talk about what people here talk about but you're the one that starts this bull**** on every site on the web, but again everyone else has the problem right?

You harped about how superior the E-Class was, for months on end, but now that you've read a comparison and bought one and found a figured about " torsional rigidity" the 5er walks on water and the E is now junk. You're to slow to even realize that those figures are given for the chassis/body in white and things can change once the car is fully assembled. Look it up. Man you're lost as hell. Google another stat and tell us how it applies to your experience, that you didn't know you had in the first place. Idiotic.

Uh I wouldn't be searching for a comparison to prove anything because I don't shop based on comparisons.

Problem is that you keep saying it over and over. Don't you get that? This board just like GCF is tired of it. You're a fountain of misinformation, and you're sole purpose here is to start stupid retard threads and to troll. You bring nothing of value here. NOTHING.

M

K-A

Haha, HALF of the E Class made up of Chinese parts! That is an outstandingly high number! Half! HALF! 1/2! 50%! How do you say that in Chinese?

The article gave the 535i #1 over the E400 which is supposed to be a level above the 535i, *I'M* the one who says the F10 does everything better than the W212, based on firsthand experience. Name me one area the E excels over the F10? If you can muster one (which you can't as you have no experience with these cars yet you argue for the sake of arguing) I'll give you 20 where the F10 does over the E.

Do you even know what Torsional Rigidity is? You know it's a factual figure right? I know you'd like to believe that M-B applies some hocus pocus magic to make torsional rigidity "irrelevant" but it's a solid figure and is measured the exact same way through every car. The W222 has a torsional rigidity figure of just around 40K nm's which is extremely high, yet not much higher at all than the F10's very impressive 38K nm's, which is my entire point. Funny how you think because I say the F10 is so superior the E Class must be "junk". It's not "junk" it's just lacking against its closest competition, and its closest competition is a remarkable car in my experience.

You should learn to take a chill pill every now and then, these are only cars, you might live longer.

Germancar1

For one, 40% isn't half. Secondly again, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PARTS ARE?

WHAT ARE THEY??????

TRY TO THINK ABOUT IT. DO YOU THINK THE ENGINE, TRANSMISSION, SEATS, SUSPENSION IS CHINESE MADE?

You're the one that doesn't know what is because you had no clue about it, until you googled it. I don't believe any type of hocus pocus, but what you don't grasp is that numbers don't always tell a story. Same thing that YOU pointed out in another forum about crash tests and how the scores on lab testing doesn't always tell the real story behind the safety of a car. I didn't the say the figure is irrelevant, what I'm saying is that you don't have the brains to know what it means either way because JUST LAST YEAR YOU WERE TRUMPETING HOW THE E WAS SUPERIOR TO THE 5-SERIES IN ITS BODY STRUCTURE AND IN CRASH TESTINGS? WERE YOU NOT?

TO ME, in driving both the E and the 5 the E felt way more solid and much more tank like an older Benz than a BMW will ever feel. Numbers can't tell you how a car feels, only gives you a scientific measurement.

The E over the 5er? Sure, solidity, build quality, high speed stability, to name a few, all superior to a 5-Series.

Aren't you the same one that blasted BMW for having doors that show the exterior color in the door jabs in the interior? Haven't seen that in a Benz.


"The W222 has a torsional rigidity figure of just around 40K nm's which is extremely high, yet not much higher at all than the F10's very impressive 38K nm's, which is my entire point."

You don't' have a point. All you have is a number on a paper that you googled because you haven't driven the S-Class yet to know how impressive anything else yet. You don't know what you're talking about until you google it.

M

K-A

Fact of the matter is I have a ton more experience with these two cars then you, hence your frustration and misinformation.

The F10 feels a lot more solid than the E because it IS. It's 30% more solid, factual, not going based on your "feel" measurement.

High speed stability? You ever have to swerve a W212 with its rolly-polly suspension at 80MPH to avoid something? Nope. I have, and have in the F10, and the F10 is WAY more stable. The W212 rolls so excessively under pressure it feels like the chassis wants to escape from the wheels. Have you ever driven both into the triple figures? Probably not, well I'll tell you that the F10 feels like you're going 60 MPH when you're going much faster than that. The E doesn't hold the same confidence at higher speeds as it isn't as tight and maneuverable, nor is it as quiet and serene.

Build quality? What the horrid interior plastics and excessive rattles? The F10 is built like a brick if you ask me, no rattles on mine yet when BOTH of my W212's had too much at this point. The F10's material quality is drastically more refined than the W212's harsh plastics, more carpeting and soft touch and leather in the F10, and larger slabs of wood (and much larger screen, better tech, etc.).

The F10 has electronics such as HUD and an E-parking brake where the E is analogue or lacking in those areas. iDrive is on another level from COMAND in features.

Brakes? The F10 outbrakes the W212 statistically and very noticeably by feel.

Handling? No question, an M suspension F10 will feel stiff and planted over a W212 who will feel boaty-floaty, yet the F10 STILL rides smoother and will go over bumps MUCH better than the harsh W212 (W212 rolls through turns and is harsh over bumps, the opposite of a well engineered suspension, while the F10 WITH M suspension will be stiff through turns but soft over bumps, i.e a perfectly engineered suspension).

As for the E Class. Yes, the Chinese parts are everywhere.... they comprise of HALF (ok "almost half) of the car! The E Class is an leader in its class of Germans in Chinese part usage! Go Mercedes!

MDMercedesGuy

Jesus Christ. No one gives a damn about your BMW. Go away and stop trolling this board.

Germancar1

See what makes you looks so stupid is that BEFORE YOU READ THAT ABOUT "torsional rigidity"
YOU DEVOTED YOURSELF TO TRYING TO MAKE THE CASE FOR THE E BEING THE SUPERIOR CAR WHEN IT CAME TO SOLIDITY.

THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU CLUELESS. ANY OLD DOG OR CAT COULD TELL YOU SOMETHING AND YOU RUN WITH IT. YOU JUST MADE MY POINT.

WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS YOUR BEHAVIOR ON GCF WHEN YOU WERE TOUTING THE E-CLASS AND HOW IT HAD A SUPERIOR BODY AND CHASSIS VS THE 5-SEREIS?

WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS THAT?

There is no misinformation if my experience is different then yours. AGAIN, YOU CAN'T THINK FOR YOURSELF. YOU SEE A NUMBER AND SAY OH IT MUST BE SO, and I'm not saying the number isn't true, but anyone with half knowledge here knows that just because a "torsional rigidity" number is higher it doesn't automatically mean the car is more solid. GM made the same claim back in the day about the Aurora and it was no where near as solid as the W124 E-Class of the day.


"Build quality? What the horrid interior plastics and excessive rattles? The F10 is built like a brick if you ask me, no rattles on mine yet when BOTH of my W212's had too much at this point. The F10's material quality is drastically more refined than the W212's harsh plastics, more carpeting and soft touch and leather in the F10, and larger slabs of wood (and much larger screen, better tech, etc.)."

YET YOU CAN SEE THE EXTERIOR PAINT FROM THE INSIDE NO? NOW THE E HAS HORRID PLASTICS, YET I CAN FIND WHERE YOU'VE SAID OTHERWISE? The 5er is softer where the E is more utilitarian, doesn't make it cheap. Makes is more like older Mercedes models which is what YOU'VE said yourself about the E-Class. Now the plastics are horrid? Do you really think E-Classes have excessive rattles? Larger slabs of wood? Bigger screen? OMG you sound like fool, buy a Hyundai if that is important to you.

M

K-A

Uhh, everyone clearly cares about my BMW, hence the threads I start getting more action here than they should to be honest. It's all you guys talk about! I can't even start a thread here without everyone else bringing "my" car into it! Why don't you find another thread that suits your needs, or contribute to the topic at hand, otherwise thanks but no thanks.

MDMercedesGuy

There are not enough emoticons on this forum to express how ridiculous you are. :r olf:

K-A

Yeah, I devoted myself to that when I TRUSTED M-B would make the most solid car, and when I trusted that their marketing team was telling the truth (dumb, yes) in how advanced the W212's material construction was (I started to get the real message when both of mine started rattling prematurely and flexing chassis over rough patches, with others reporting the same).

Fact is, the F10 is more rigid, by 30%, that's an astounding number, and is a verifiable way of judging how stiff a car is. The F10 also gets better crash scores through various outlets. I always said that I "trust M-B safety engineers know better than some tests" but these days I start to know better.

I was wrong before, wrong enough that I got out of my second straight W212 lease early, did a ton of studying on the F10, got it, and found out for myself what everyone was raving about. It was really that good, I couldn't believe that M-B could charge the same price for a car so far behind in literally every respect (well, they don't, W212's get discounted 20+% regularly and lease for what 3-Series' lease for, for a reason, they aren't worthy of the price tage when pitted against closest competition), and then to make matters worse, M-B themselves threw sand in W212 enthusiasts faces when they haphazardly mashed up a horrendous new front to the car and uncharacteristically re-arranged the sides and back for IMO the much worse. MB NEEDED to do a huge facelift to the W212 because they literally admitted through actions that the car was a "mistake" and lacking, otherwise like BMW did with the F10, they would have just left well enough alone and stated "we don't want the changes to be noticeable because 'why mess with perfection'". Instead, M-B sent the opposite message.

If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be wasting your time in all my threads, now would you? That goes for anyone who constantly brings up "my BMW" in every thread I participate in because they get flustered by my "anti-MB" comments.

Wolfman

Funny thing is that the Comparo from Germany declares the E400 the better car
Only the higher price cost the E-class in the final rating. It helps to read German...

Germancar1

What did they lie about? It isn't Mercedes' fault you were clueless and didn't know what things were until you googled them. You only prove my point about your being gullible and naive if you believe everything a marketing team tells you. BMW still says they make the ultimate driving machine, yet in the 5 and 7 Series classes they have been trounced in that department by Audi and Jaguar when it comes to dynamics. Tell me do you still believe they make the ultimate driving machine?

"Fact is, the F10 is more rigid, by 30%, that's an astounding number, and is a verifiable way of judging how stiff a car is. The F10 also gets better crash scores through various outlets. I always said that I "trust M-B safety engineers know better than some tests" but these days I start to know better. "

Yet the Mercedes feels more solid and it has been noted. And you know better now based on what? Did you crashed your E-Class?

You do realize that you're raving about a car that has failed to live up to the typical BMW sports sedan standard right? It has been panned worldwide for being overweight and poor handling compared to cars like the A6. You aren't getting the essence of what a true BMW 5-Series was when it was the defacto sports sedan, which makes your ranting about wood, leather and nav screen size look really silly.

I agree the facelift was dramatic now that I've seen it in person, the old car sucked in its look.

M

Germancar1

Which is why he is clueless. I could post a link to site that says the 5-Series floats on water and he would believe it.

M

K-A

Actually that isn't quite the case. They said both are great but the 535i gets the edge due to pricing. They rated it higher on a points basis, one being better handling and the other being better overall design, thus judging it as the better overall car.

Either way, the E400 should "beat" a 535i in a comparo otherwise MB did something very wrong, yet this one goes to show how ahead of the E350 the 535i truly is.


For a Luxury Sedan, yes I think BMW does make the "Ultimate Driving Machine". If you don't look at this in a singular "sportiness>everything" way, nobody combines sportiness and luxury like BMW right now, period. The F10 has outsold every 5er before it by a huge margin and has FOR THE FIRST TIME decimated the E Class in worldwide sales, even WITH the E Class getting a somewhat artificial sales boost by an "E Coupe" based on a C Class. The F10 has been anything but panned unless you listen to guys who want nothing more than a loud and crude sports car with 4 doors. The E60 was subpar to the W211 E Class as a Luxury Sedan because it was too crude, however BMW fixed that with the F10 and made something more luxurious than Mercedes ever has in this segment, yet with the right packaging it is still more sporty than anything Mercedes has ever made (non AMG) with 4 doors.

The W212 is anything but "more solid" than the F10. You're believing MB hocus pocus marketing. Not only does the F10 feel more solid, but it IS, 30% more solid. Quite your fanboy whinings here and accept the fact that facts are facts.

Safety wise, yes, the F10 scores better. Funny how I show you articles that rate the F10 as #1 over the E400, tell you factual crash scores that have the F10 higher than the E, show you factual numbers that the E uses over 40% Chinese parts, and tell you factual figures of the F10 being substantially stiffer than the E Class. Yet you somehow fool yourself into disagreeing.... with FACTS! You are completely in denial. Even facts won't change your mind. You simply want to hear "The Star is ever powerful and Mercedes is the best because we say it is the best". Somehow you'd agree with that more-so than fact fact based evidence and specific personal experience that proves otherwise.

MDMercedesGuy

They're not "your threads". They are the threads you hijack.

K-A

False. I started this thread, and the thread got hijacked by the guy who butted his head in here bringing up my BMW when it wasn't about the topic. A common trait I've noticed that certain MB fanboys share is that they don't like hearing negatives about their passion-cars (understandable) however since the ones I at least encounter have such little basis to back up their arguments, they will "make fun of" what you drive. Then when you naturally defend your perspective, they cry "foul!" and tell you to stop being off-topic (when they themselves initiated the off topic convo). Then being so miffed about hearing what the "enemy" cars do better, they cry for "censorship! Censorship!".

And, yes, you can substitute "they" for "you".