S class not made in Germany?
10-15-2013, 09:39 AM
#76
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Like I said, if M-B can attain enough growth/volume in China they will probably do the same (if they aren't already). BMW AG for better or worser are leading the auto industry in business practice, while M-B lag far behind with a trailing stock, diminishing market value compared to their peers (recent analysis valued it at half of what BMW is worth, which shows a catastrophic dent to what was once the most valuable Luxury automotive brand) and lots of investor scrutiny due to following their competitors' leads instead of leading them, not to mention vastly trailing profitability/margins.
The F10 frame is 30% stiffer than the stiffest M-B frame before the W222 came out (which in itself is barely stiffer than the F10 frame), so who cares where it's made (Germany, btw). The links you provided don't say anything more than BMW supplying LONG-WHEELBASE (only a China model right now) Chinese based 5 Series to possibly surrounding areas, as it's effective considering their booming business out there (no different than M-B supplying American made M-B's to America, let's not forget rumors about Mexican M-B production listed in this very thread). And don't discount Chinese assembly, it's far more efficient than U.S assembly, which frankly doesn't have the greatest track record. There's no proof that BMW makes the 5 Series "frame" from China because that proof doesn't exist, as it's false.
M-B have their chassis' riding under various Dodge/Chrysler cars and the ML chassis basis is under the current Jeep GC. They are either currently or in the future sharing platforms/drivetrains with Nissan-Renault-Infiniti, not to mention drive trains. There are more cars you'll see M-B components in or under which are escaping me at the moment (Tesla being another, as Daimler has a vested interest).
....Oh, and of course Mercedes' components being under various manufacturers cars isn't enough, they actually HAVE got the wheels in motion for sharing platforms with their Chinese partner (Daimler has more "share" partnerships across the automotive board than about anybody, btw) BAIC:
Mercedes considering sharing platforms with China partner
Read more at http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...w7tRqrrDVyK.99
Oh, then there's this, confirming what I already told you:
Capacity Expansion
"Daimler will also increase its production capacity of Mercedes cars in China. It currently imports nearly half of its cars, and therefore ends up paying a hefty 25% excise duty. By expanding its Chinese capacity, Mercedes will reduce the number of imported cars to nearly one-third of its total sales, cutting costs and helping Daimler compete more effectively with its rivals in terms of price."
From this article:
Mercedes Emulates Audi in China's Booming Luxury Cars Market
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...luxury-ca.aspx
Class dismissed.
The F10 frame is 30% stiffer than the stiffest M-B frame before the W222 came out (which in itself is barely stiffer than the F10 frame), so who cares where it's made (Germany, btw). The links you provided don't say anything more than BMW supplying LONG-WHEELBASE (only a China model right now) Chinese based 5 Series to possibly surrounding areas, as it's effective considering their booming business out there (no different than M-B supplying American made M-B's to America, let's not forget rumors about Mexican M-B production listed in this very thread). And don't discount Chinese assembly, it's far more efficient than U.S assembly, which frankly doesn't have the greatest track record. There's no proof that BMW makes the 5 Series "frame" from China because that proof doesn't exist, as it's false.
M-B have their chassis' riding under various Dodge/Chrysler cars and the ML chassis basis is under the current Jeep GC. They are either currently or in the future sharing platforms/drivetrains with Nissan-Renault-Infiniti, not to mention drive trains. There are more cars you'll see M-B components in or under which are escaping me at the moment (Tesla being another, as Daimler has a vested interest).
....Oh, and of course Mercedes' components being under various manufacturers cars isn't enough, they actually HAVE got the wheels in motion for sharing platforms with their Chinese partner (Daimler has more "share" partnerships across the automotive board than about anybody, btw) BAIC:
Mercedes considering sharing platforms with China partner
Read more at http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...w7tRqrrDVyK.99
Oh, then there's this, confirming what I already told you:
Capacity Expansion
"Daimler will also increase its production capacity of Mercedes cars in China. It currently imports nearly half of its cars, and therefore ends up paying a hefty 25% excise duty. By expanding its Chinese capacity, Mercedes will reduce the number of imported cars to nearly one-third of its total sales, cutting costs and helping Daimler compete more effectively with its rivals in terms of price."
From this article:
Mercedes Emulates Audi in China's Booming Luxury Cars Market
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...luxury-ca.aspx
Class dismissed.
You single out the a diminishing market value of MB. MB's market cap is nearly 9billion euros higher than BMW's. The performance of both companies has been excellent over the last 12 months (I own both quotes) though MB's has appreciated more in this time period.
Those are facts. I do not know what analyst you quoted, nor do I wish to if his deductions lead to that sort of conclusion.
You are continually outed here as a liar, or if you are not lying, are you just rather ignorant?
10-15-2013, 10:38 AM
#77
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MBIAN, you are fighting an uphill battle here.
It's a lot easier to put K-A on ignore and enjoy a clutter free forum experience than argue incessantly with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.
It's a lot easier to put K-A on ignore and enjoy a clutter free forum experience than argue incessantly with someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.
10-15-2013, 10:54 AM
#78
MBWorld Fanatic!
F10 issues have been about all resolved by 2013 models and there have been many mechanical and technological improvements applied to the cars since then. Early models had heavy teething issues, yes.
All of my M-B's had enough finish or mechanical issues to get me into M-B loaners very early on in my experiences with them. My F10 has actually been my most reliable/quality new car to date, so far.
The 2013 iDrive Navigation is VASTLY superior to my 2011 E's navigation. '13 BMW's got a much enhanced iDrive which works superbly and in my opinion truly makes COMAND look and feel Atari-grade ancient. The 2014 5 Series LCI (facelift) models also get a once-again improved Nav and interface with a touchpad which is apparently even more excellent.
The E Class Chinese part content was refuted in another thread and I may have been off base on that. 2010/2011 E Classes had a separate sticker stating only 50-55% German content and most of the rest Chinese, while when M-B moved to the new MSRP window stickers in 2012 all of a sudden it showed 73% German content on the window sticker itself, comparable with the 5 Series.
Maybe there's some funny business going on there, maybe not, maybe I'm remembering it wrong (99% sure I'm not as it was an issue to me when I was seeing that separate 50-55% sticker on both of my 2010/2011 E350's when acquiring, then going next door to BMW and seeing 75% on the 535i) but I digress for the sake of the forum and assume the E and 5 have basically the same German part content.
All of my M-B's had enough finish or mechanical issues to get me into M-B loaners very early on in my experiences with them. My F10 has actually been my most reliable/quality new car to date, so far.
The 2013 iDrive Navigation is VASTLY superior to my 2011 E's navigation. '13 BMW's got a much enhanced iDrive which works superbly and in my opinion truly makes COMAND look and feel Atari-grade ancient. The 2014 5 Series LCI (facelift) models also get a once-again improved Nav and interface with a touchpad which is apparently even more excellent.
The E Class Chinese part content was refuted in another thread and I may have been off base on that. 2010/2011 E Classes had a separate sticker stating only 50-55% German content and most of the rest Chinese, while when M-B moved to the new MSRP window stickers in 2012 all of a sudden it showed 73% German content on the window sticker itself, comparable with the 5 Series.
Maybe there's some funny business going on there, maybe not, maybe I'm remembering it wrong (99% sure I'm not as it was an issue to me when I was seeing that separate 50-55% sticker on both of my 2010/2011 E350's when acquiring, then going next door to BMW and seeing 75% on the 535i) but I digress for the sake of the forum and assume the E and 5 have basically the same German part content.
10-15-2013, 12:07 PM
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10-15-2013, 03:25 PM
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KA you seem to make such glaring errors that it is difficult to believe anything that you say.
You single out the a diminishing market value of MB. MB's market cap is nearly 9billion euros higher than BMW's. The performance of both companies has been excellent over the last 12 months (I own both quotes) though MB's has appreciated more in this time period.
Those are facts. I do not know what analyst you quoted, nor do I wish to if his deductions lead to that sort of conclusion.
You are continually outed here as a liar, or if you are not lying, are you just rather ignorant?
You single out the a diminishing market value of MB. MB's market cap is nearly 9billion euros higher than BMW's. The performance of both companies has been excellent over the last 12 months (I own both quotes) though MB's has appreciated more in this time period.
Those are facts. I do not know what analyst you quoted, nor do I wish to if his deductions lead to that sort of conclusion.
You are continually outed here as a liar, or if you are not lying, are you just rather ignorant?
Daimler stock has been lagging since the recession (i.e after the car market started booming again). Point is that it has given up MAJOR share to its competitors in the last decade+. Its stock has been outperformed by peers when you take into context how they performed in the past and how they've performed during the recent, say, 5 years.
Daimler is a MUCH larger business than BMW AG, which is the entire point of the recent analysis. They have a huge commercial (trucks, dump trucks, school buses, work trucks, vans, semi's, etc. etc.) business and when analysis factored that OUT, they found that BMW BRAND itself may be worth double of what M-B BRAND is worth. That is a significant telling.
Bloomberg:
Mercedes Valued at Half of BMW as Zetsche Loses Investors
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
Investors value Mercedes-Benz at half of BMW
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/18/i...t-half-of-bmw/
Read up, gentlemen.
Last edited by K-A; 10-15-2013 at 04:13 PM.
10-15-2013, 04:51 PM
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Best watch what you invest in closer buddy. And I haven't lied about anything but my naysayers who don't like what I say will cling to that as a defense mechanism. I just schooled my Arab Homie and he as expected comes back with ad hominem's after being disproved on every false thing he misguidedly claimed (a trend: Bring back my posts from weeks ago, "refute" them with falsities, then when I justifiably refute what you have to say, huff and puff and fling insults & cover your ears as if I dug the up the conversation back myself).
Daimler stock has been lagging since the recession (i.e after the car market started booming again). Point is that it has given up MAJOR share to its competitors in the last decade+. Its stock has been outperformed by peers when you take into context how they performed in the past and how they've performed during the recent, say, 5 years.
Daimler is a MUCH larger business than BMW AG, which is the entire point of the recent analysis. They have a huge commercial (trucks, dump trucks, school buses, work trucks, vans, semi's, etc. etc.) business and when analysis factored that OUT, they found that BMW BRAND itself may be worth double of what M-B BRAND is worth. That is a significant telling.
Bloomberg:
Mercedes Valued at Half of BMW as Zetsche Loses Investors
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
Investors value Mercedes-Benz at half of BMW
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/18/i...t-half-of-bmw/
Read up, gentlemen.
Daimler stock has been lagging since the recession (i.e after the car market started booming again). Point is that it has given up MAJOR share to its competitors in the last decade+. Its stock has been outperformed by peers when you take into context how they performed in the past and how they've performed during the recent, say, 5 years.
Daimler is a MUCH larger business than BMW AG, which is the entire point of the recent analysis. They have a huge commercial (trucks, dump trucks, school buses, work trucks, vans, semi's, etc. etc.) business and when analysis factored that OUT, they found that BMW BRAND itself may be worth double of what M-B BRAND is worth. That is a significant telling.
Bloomberg:
Mercedes Valued at Half of BMW as Zetsche Loses Investors
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
Investors value Mercedes-Benz at half of BMW
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/18/i...t-half-of-bmw/
Read up, gentlemen.
Lol. So anyways how is everyones day going?
10-15-2013, 05:47 PM
#82
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Arab_Homie:
since you ask how my day is going.....
Thanks for quoting! Totally undoes my ignore list. Not that I have the patience to read through the drivel.
since you ask how my day is going.....
Thanks for quoting! Totally undoes my ignore list. Not that I have the patience to read through the drivel.
10-15-2013, 07:44 PM
#83
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Best watch what you invest in closer buddy. And I haven't lied about anything but my naysayers who don't like what I say will cling to that as a defense mechanism. I just schooled my Arab Homie and he as expected comes back with ad hominem's after being disproved on every false thing he misguidedly claimed (a trend: Bring back my posts from weeks ago, "refute" them with falsities, then when I justifiably refute what you have to say, huff and puff and fling insults & cover your ears as if I dug the up the conversation back myself).
Daimler stock has been lagging since the recession (i.e after the car market started booming again). Point is that it has given up MAJOR share to its competitors in the last decade+. Its stock has been outperformed by peers when you take into context how they performed in the past and how they've performed during the recent, say, 5 years.
Daimler is a MUCH larger business than BMW AG, which is the entire point of the recent analysis. They have a huge commercial (trucks, dump trucks, school buses, work trucks, vans, semi's, etc. etc.) business and when analysis factored that OUT, they found that BMW BRAND itself may be worth double of what M-B BRAND is worth. That is a significant telling.
Bloomberg:
Mercedes Valued at Half of BMW as Zetsche Loses Investors
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
Investors value Mercedes-Benz at half of BMW
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/18/i...t-half-of-bmw/
Read up, gentlemen.
Daimler stock has been lagging since the recession (i.e after the car market started booming again). Point is that it has given up MAJOR share to its competitors in the last decade+. Its stock has been outperformed by peers when you take into context how they performed in the past and how they've performed during the recent, say, 5 years.
Daimler is a MUCH larger business than BMW AG, which is the entire point of the recent analysis. They have a huge commercial (trucks, dump trucks, school buses, work trucks, vans, semi's, etc. etc.) business and when analysis factored that OUT, they found that BMW BRAND itself may be worth double of what M-B BRAND is worth. That is a significant telling.
Bloomberg:
Mercedes Valued at Half of BMW as Zetsche Loses Investors
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
Investors value Mercedes-Benz at half of BMW
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/18/i...t-half-of-bmw/
Read up, gentlemen.
Your link quotes analysts opinions from December 2012 and those opinions have been proven wrong.
Daimler has had a larger quote percentage increase than BMW since the date of that chronically flawed article.
By featuring outdated and proven flawed analysis, you are not only presenting yourself as a liar, but as somebody who should not be listened to regarding any matter, it's is verging on imbecilic.
The imbecilic and ignorance is repeated throughout your post. The value of the quote is entirely based upon the future profitability of the business not what happened five years ago.
10-15-2013, 08:31 PM
#84
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You continue to lie KA.
Your link quotes analysts opinions from December 2012 and those opinions have been proven wrong.
Daimler has had a larger quote percentage increase than BMW since the date of that chronically flawed article.
By featuring outdated and proven flawed analysis, you are not only presenting yourself as a liar, but as somebody who should not be listened to regarding any matter, it's is verging on imbecilic.
The imbecilic and ignorance is repeated throughout your post. The value of the quote is entirely based upon the future profitability of the business not what happened five years ago.
Your link quotes analysts opinions from December 2012 and those opinions have been proven wrong.
Daimler has had a larger quote percentage increase than BMW since the date of that chronically flawed article.
By featuring outdated and proven flawed analysis, you are not only presenting yourself as a liar, but as somebody who should not be listened to regarding any matter, it's is verging on imbecilic.
The imbecilic and ignorance is repeated throughout your post. The value of the quote is entirely based upon the future profitability of the business not what happened five years ago.
Those articles are spot on, those analysis AS being analysis spot on and broken down right there for you in a logical way. I said that Daimler stock has been underperforming for YEARS as Mercedes has lost MASSIVE market share to competitors. They went from #1 to #3 to BMW and Audi in just a few years. Those are facts. This year may be a different story but I'm not singling out just one year. I specifically stated this has been a problem plaguing Daimler for years as they lost market share and had an underperforming stock. As far as the future, they can very well rebound, as companies do, but make no mistake, it would be a "rebound" and Zetsche has been pretty clear about that himself.
In Dec 2012 M-B analysis found that M-B the brand itself is worth half of what BMW the brand itself is. which is a big deal as if you go back a decade the case would most probably have been very much the opposite to say the least. That's all that article says, and I think they did their homework a lot more than you have (clearly as you don't even know the recent performance dating back before this year of the stocks you yourself hold, it appears).
Last edited by K-A; 10-15-2013 at 08:42 PM.
10-15-2013, 08:45 PM
#86
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Again, you're seeing it in a misguided way that makes you feel comfortable with your own viewpoints. I haven't "lied" once.
Those articles are spot on, those analysis, spot on. I said that Daimler stock has been underperforming for YEARS as Mercedes has lost MASSIVE market share to competitors. They went from #1 to #3 to BMW and Audi in just a few years. Those are facts. This year may be a different story but I'm not singling out just one year. I specifically stated this has been a problem plaguing Daimler for years as they lost market share and had an underperforming stock. As far as the future, they can very well rebound, as companies do, but make no mistake, it would be a "rebound" and Zetsche has been pretty clear about that himself.
In Dec 2012 M-B analysis found that M-B the brand itself is worth half of what BMW the brand itself is. which is a big deal as if you go back a decade the case would most probably have been very much the opposite to say the least. That's all that article says, and I think they did their homework a lot more than you have (clearly as you don't even know the recent performance dating back before this year of the stocks you yourself hold, it appears).
Those articles are spot on, those analysis, spot on. I said that Daimler stock has been underperforming for YEARS as Mercedes has lost MASSIVE market share to competitors. They went from #1 to #3 to BMW and Audi in just a few years. Those are facts. This year may be a different story but I'm not singling out just one year. I specifically stated this has been a problem plaguing Daimler for years as they lost market share and had an underperforming stock. As far as the future, they can very well rebound, as companies do, but make no mistake, it would be a "rebound" and Zetsche has been pretty clear about that himself.
In Dec 2012 M-B analysis found that M-B the brand itself is worth half of what BMW the brand itself is. which is a big deal as if you go back a decade the case would most probably have been very much the opposite to say the least. That's all that article says, and I think they did their homework a lot more than you have (clearly as you don't even know the recent performance dating back before this year of the stocks you yourself hold, it appears).
You said that BMW is worth more than Benz' it isn't Benzs' value is nearly 20% higher, so therefore you lied.
You said that Benz was underperforming BMW. Since the article that you cite (December 12) Benz has outperformed BMW so those ARE two lies.
Analysts frequently have agendas, in this industry it is a plague.
And this is my industry.
10-15-2013, 08:57 PM
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First of all, Daimler being an UNDERperformer makes sense to *REBOUND* more this year than BMW as M-B has brought out tons of new/refreshed products which have naturally gained it more market share. However they have NOT performed to the point where that analysis is invalidated or too dated, unless of course their stock more than doubled and BMW AG's stayed still or regressed. If BMW isn't valued at 100% more than Mercedes-Benz is 10 months after that analysis, then maybe it's "only" likely valued at 60% more? lol
Fact is, it all proves what my point has been: M-B has been getting hammered in market share in recent years, losing its sales crowns to first Lexus, then BMW, and now even Audi finished 2012 ahead of M-B in worldwide sales. They are on the rebound and considering they have the LARGEST fleet of cars out of their competitors on the floors, and are pumping out more new models in 2012-2014 than anyone really, it would make sense for them to take back the "sales" "crown" at least for the time being.... or else Dr. Z's job is up, as he promised investors "Mercedes would make it back to the top of sales" by I believe 2015 or 2016. He knows his job is on the line for it and if I had my way he'd be gone already. I'm not a fan of the brands direction under his command. After all, he's the guy who made Chrysler go from a piece of crap to an even bigger piece of crap and the moment he left as Chief of Chrysler, all of a sudden.... they got a ton better again.
And you don't have to tell me about analysts, I'm tied to the "industry" myself and know there's nothing lower than an "analyst". But the article and analysis makes sense and sounds spot on logical/realistic.
Fact is, it all proves what my point has been: M-B has been getting hammered in market share in recent years, losing its sales crowns to first Lexus, then BMW, and now even Audi finished 2012 ahead of M-B in worldwide sales. They are on the rebound and considering they have the LARGEST fleet of cars out of their competitors on the floors, and are pumping out more new models in 2012-2014 than anyone really, it would make sense for them to take back the "sales" "crown" at least for the time being.... or else Dr. Z's job is up, as he promised investors "Mercedes would make it back to the top of sales" by I believe 2015 or 2016. He knows his job is on the line for it and if I had my way he'd be gone already. I'm not a fan of the brands direction under his command. After all, he's the guy who made Chrysler go from a piece of crap to an even bigger piece of crap and the moment he left as Chief of Chrysler, all of a sudden.... they got a ton better again.
And you don't have to tell me about analysts, I'm tied to the "industry" myself and know there's nothing lower than an "analyst". But the article and analysis makes sense and sounds spot on logical/realistic.
Last edited by K-A; 10-15-2013 at 09:01 PM.
10-16-2013, 03:53 AM
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Oh lol sorry bout that. Just trying to move on from that illiterate guy before I ignored him too. Hoping everyone will stop replying since we all know it's BS.
10-16-2013, 11:08 AM
#90
MBWorld Fanatic!
K-A even when you are right, no one will believe you. Once you are caught in a whopper (50% Chinese content on the E class) you have lost all credibility.
My advice to you is to pontificate on the BMW forum. There, you will find like minded people who will appreciate your enthusiasm for the fine BMW product. The forum will appreciate your flowery prose describing the so perfect design. Furthermore, your denigration of all things MB, will reinforce BMW owners' choice of vehicle. You may become the BMW laureate for all design information from Bavaria. You will THE man who Knows it All ie K-A.
Secondly, by leaving this forum, many of us will stop having that stomach malaise. You know....as the stomach turns reading your crap.
Go to the BMW forum, your followers are waiting for your wisdom.
Buy Buy, adios, adieu, ciao!!!!!
PS There is no need to reply to this post. We will understand if you choose to leave abruptly without further ado.
My advice to you is to pontificate on the BMW forum. There, you will find like minded people who will appreciate your enthusiasm for the fine BMW product. The forum will appreciate your flowery prose describing the so perfect design. Furthermore, your denigration of all things MB, will reinforce BMW owners' choice of vehicle. You may become the BMW laureate for all design information from Bavaria. You will THE man who Knows it All ie K-A.
Secondly, by leaving this forum, many of us will stop having that stomach malaise. You know....as the stomach turns reading your crap.
Go to the BMW forum, your followers are waiting for your wisdom.
Buy Buy, adios, adieu, ciao!!!!!
PS There is no need to reply to this post. We will understand if you choose to leave abruptly without further ado.
Last edited by petee1997; 10-16-2013 at 11:19 AM.
10-16-2013, 03:22 PM
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Funny you say this after YOU dug up this thread with false information and hyperbole then got all your points proven false and in fact spun around on you (BMW making their frames on cars build in Germany, IN Germany not China, only selling the LONG wheelbase 5 Series which is a China-only model as Chinese builds in possibly surrounding countries which is something M-B will SURELY do when they finally get enough market share in China to compete with BMW/Audi, M-B having Chinese partners who they WILL share chassis/frames/drivetrains with, and of course already basically publicly stated that they will follow the routes of success in China by Audi via emulating their business model over there after them). When all else fails, ad hominem and insult away then pretend it wasn't you who re-wound it up.
Last edited by K-A; 10-16-2013 at 03:40 PM.
