Jason B

If Mercedes did that, it would be $200,000.

WEBSRFR

Well, then they are in serious trouble.

What shocked me the most about the Model S drive is how "complete" and "finished" that product was. I was expecting a good test drive but more of a beta product but what I experienced was beyond my expectations. And they are just getting started. The luxury aspects I found lacking in the Model S can be likely addressed within about $10-$15K of interior refinements and that's what Mercedes has to compete with.

If Mercedes can't compete in the EV segment, in a decade or 2 they are going to become the next GM. The dinosaur that could not change and adapt.

I just can't emphasize enough the driving experience without an internal combustion engine and transmission. No matter how many gears they add and how refined they make the internal combustion engine, they can't match the instant torque curve of not having any gears. Basically there was nothing mechanical between me and warp speed acceleration when I test drove the P85. And it all happened with no vibration, sound, or hesitation.

They should put the P85 drive-train in a S class interior and we'd have the perfect car

nyca

Fewer people want these EVs than you think, because of the range issue. People who buy Teslas, MUST have another car in the household.

WEBSRFR

Fewer people? I am sorry but where did you pull this out of as it is not grounded in facts or reality.

They are selling more Model S vehicles that Mercedes sells the S class in America. US sales for the Model S in 2013 checked in at ~ 17,650 units, which puts Tesla’s electric sedan well ahead of its large luxury sedan competitors. Granted the W221 was an outgoing model but still this is certainly not bad for an entirely different car.

•Mercedes-Benz S-Class: 13,303
•BMW 7 Series: 10,932
•Lexus LS: 10,727
•Audi A8: 6,300
•Porsche Panamera: 5,421


As for range, I'm not sure what range issues you are talking about and perhaps you drive over 300 miles at a stretch without a break all the time but for myself and the majority of potential buyers in this segment 300 miles is plenty.

Their goal is to have superchargers every 150 miles so if I end up driving 600 miles in one day, I can always stop somewhere for 30-40 minutes to get something to eat and rest. By the time I am done, I have a full charge again.

Unlike a gasoline car, superchargers are free and provided by Tesla so I can drive from DC to NY or DC to Boston without paying a cent gas.

The range issue you speak of is nonsense for most people and it is primarily an issue with compromised electric cards built by Nissan, Toyota, and Mercedes. They all give you barely 100 miles of electric rage.

As I've said earlier, the technology is available to build an EV where range is not an issue and when you need to drive for 8 hours you are better off taking a small break after 4 hours anyway and that is long enough to recharge.

As for people who buy a Tesla must having another vehicle, what does that have to do with anything? It has more to do with the income segment of those people than anything else. Whether I buy a S550 or Model S, I will continue to have another vehicle and it has nothing to do with whatever car I buy. I know both the Mercedes and the Tesla have enough range to go wherever I want and I see no range issues that would affect me or most people who would buy either car.

As others have mentioned in this thread, there is currently nothing equivalent to the Model S in range and speed. It is not a fair comparison to dis Tesla offerings based on the compromised designs of the non-Tesla vehicles out there...

K-A

That's not entirely true, unless you do lots of long distance drives (over 300 miles) especially when you don't have the time to pull over and recharge using one of Tesla's growing free-charge-ports.

The biggest issue to the Tesla, aside from continuously working on upping the range (which rest assured, they will) is for those who don't have their own garage's (or have them but with no electrical ports). People who live in apartments, condo's, cities, etc. who use shared parking lots have a big inconvenience as they can't just charge their Tesla's over night.

MDMercedesGuy

I'm not sold on the reliability of Tesla long term. Look at the Edmunds long term test of theirs (now on its 3rd powertrain), and read on the forums about the litany of issues with the electronics, powertrain and suspension.

It's not a car that is in the same class as the S class, I'm sorry. Comparing sales numbers is also skewed, considering the Tesla starts at $63K and the top model starts at $93K - right about where a "stripper" S550 starts.

I think it is a wonderful idea that we need to see more of, but it is not the holy grail that it is being portrayed as (and yes, I have driven and ridden in several of them).

The range thing is an issue for someone like me. I'm getting ready to make a 1,000 mile round trip in 2 weeks that I make several times a year. I usually stop once to use the restroom and grab a snack about 250 miles in - and that takes all of 15 minutes. I don't need to fuel from the time I leave DC and reach my destination in Ohio in my C, and I certainly would not sit around for 45 minutes waiting for my car to refuel regardless of it being free.

Quadcammer

What if I'm driving along with 30% of my charge remaining and a friend who lives 75 miles away calls and says, I need help with x.

Now i have to sit there and think...do I have enough range? Is there a supercharger nearby? Do I have to modify my route to find one? Then I have to wait another 30 minutes while the car charges?

God forbid its an emergency.

electric cars are for people that have set commutes and are willing to put up with some pretty serious shortcomings to be early adopters.

Give me the oh so complex engine/transmission/differential that have some managed to not continuously fail in the 130 years they've been around.

K-A

We're in the modern version of the era when people went from Horse and Buggy's to gas powered cars. Back then, people had all the reservations they do now toward EV's and then a ton.

Of course, EV's are a convenience compromise for many people still, however, it's come so far, so quickly, as Tesla just popped up out of nowhere with what people probably thought was still 15 to 20 years away.

In 20 years from now, EV's will be able to do everything everyone wants from them now, and then some, and the internal combustion motor will be a boat anchor. I'm not even saying that "me the car enthusiast" will even like that as I have a passion and connection for how cars have worked and sound throughout my lifetime thus far, but it's clearly the truth. BMW launched the "i" cars, which were clearly developed pre-Tesla as they wear that goofy, quickly-dating "look, we're an EV which means we need to look campy and futuristic passé" look, however it shows that BMW are already hedging themselves to get in on this massive impending transition in transportation.

Mercedes haven't been very proactive on their own, at all, in getting this transition started within their own lineup.... however, to hedge against that as well as the EV revolution, they invested heavily in Tesla, so they shouldn't have a tough time diving in, if and/or when they decide it's time.

WEBSRFR

Are you serious? Are you actually talking about the long-term reliability being an asset to a modern Mercedes when compared to a Tesla? Don't think I would have gone there with a straight face I would not let a friend (or even an enemy!) own an S class out of warranty. Look at the dozens of threads on the W221 forum... Whenever someone talks about buying a 3+ year old Mercedes, the recommendation for a warranty is not that far away.

Before my E550 hit 50K miles, I've had to have the entire engine rebuilt (balance sprocket issue) and then the transmission hard shift issue came up that requires the transmission to be taken apart. These are both widely known issues with components that were shared with the S class. When I get a Tesla, I look forward to not having to deal with all the mechanical nonsense that breaks down after the warranty runs out so they can sell me parts and service.

You don't have to be sold on anything. If gasoline-based automotive propulsion is what's best for you, stick with it but I think it is silly to try and convince anyone that Mercedes' gasoline propulsion is more reliable than a simple electric motor with a fixed gear

FWIW I have been monitoring the Tesla forums for the last year and apart from the occasional odd car every manufacturer makes, the Tesla owners are very happy with their cars.

Edmunds likely acquired one of the initial Model S vehicles ever made and they did have issues. Most of those issues have been addressed and the newer serial numbers above P20000 seem to be quite well built. I'm perfectly comfortable buying one with my money.

I think you are misinformed about the cost of Model S vehicles for most who buy them and you are not stating what customers end up paying for the S550 models they buy. A fully loaded Model S approaches $125K. When Tesla first announced the Model S, they had 3 versions: 40KwH, 60KwH, and 85KwH. So few people bought the 40KwH model, they discontinued it. More of their sales are for the higher end versions with more options.

The P85 I was going to order came up to about $102K. The S550 I would like to order is about $103K but if I end up buying one I can bring that number down while there is no negotiating on the Tesla price. It would be cheaper for me to by the S550 I like than it is for me to buy the Model S I want.

I see you live in Rockville. I'm close to you in Bethesda/Chevy Chase and when I test drove a Model S at Montgomery Mall, I was told the Washington DC area is Tesla's #2 market in the US and that most of the models they sell are the higher end P/85 models.

I think you are skewing these numbers somewhat. With Tesla, the retail price you see is what you pay. With a Mercedes, you can knock down $10-$15K of the asking price for the car based on the options, when you buy, and your negotiation strategy. Few people buy "stripped down" cars that cost around $100K.

You might be in denial of this fact like the other person earlier who thought Tesla is not selling that many cars but the Model S per unit cost is in the same range as an S550.

Yes, the Model S is definitely not the car for you if you like to drive for 500 miles at a time with only 15 minutes of rest time For some people driving 500 miles, a 45 minute rest stop for food and stretching your legs after 250 miles of driving might make sense. The Model S is for those people and when they get back to their car, they have a fully recharged car for free.

I've looked at it very carefully and the Model S has enough range for 100% of my driving including up and down I95, to the Shenandoah Mountains, our beach house, and even our annual visit to beautiful Asheville, NC. The only thing holding me back from buying a Model S is lack of AWD.

With the 300 mile range of the Model S, this whole range argument is mostly made up nonsense by traditional car companies that don't want to change or offer a product with less maintenance. This is just version 1.0 of the Model S. I hear higher capacity batteries are on their way so these naysayers will have to find something else to complain about when that comes out.

WEBSRFR

I agree with you completely. I think some people are having a hard time coming to terms with a newer and better technology on the horizon that will reinvent the car. They seem to be in denial somewhat.

I've been on this forum for 8 years and I have an affinity for Mercedes. But that Model S test drive changed all that when I realized that Mercedes could have brought me silent and utterly smooth acceleration to 60 in about 4.2 seconds and an instant never-ending torque curve from 0 to 100 MPH but they didn't. I've seen the future of the car and it's very difficult to go back.

I also agree with you completely about the BMW i cars. The i3 is going to look ridiculous in several years and BMW has compromised the i cars. The i3 along with the upcoming B class is the reason EVs are not taken seriously. They are both glorified golf carts as far as I'm concerned. It seems both Mercedes and BMW want to keep EVs as a fringe segment selling EVs with poor range and performance. I really think this has to do with them not wanting to give up all the money they make in service and repairs when gasoline cars break down. They don't want to sell an electric car that barely needs any service even after 2 years.

Too bad for them, Tesla is here. Sooner or later they will both have to build a no-compromise high performance, high-end, mass market electric car. Otherwise the upcoming Model E will do to 5 series and E class sales what the Model S has done to S class sales.

All in all. Good times and better cars.

Quadcammer

so go buy one!

why suffer through such inelegance and crudity as offered by the S-class? Go buy your silent chariot and discuss its brilliance with like minded individuals

gotwire

Drivetrain discussions aside a Model S is not an S class alternative. No comparison when it comes to luxury. Some may see it as purely subjective but side by side the interior of a Model S feels more Honda than Mercedes. Nothing against Honda but a different class of car.

Ask my partner at work with his busted home charger and 80 mile range on 110 charges.

Back to the 222.

WEBSRFR

Yikes! Did I hit a nerve there? Being a bit touchy there... We are just talking about cars on a car forum. I've been on this forum for 8 years and it is natural to talk about and compare other cars out there.

My E550 is due for replacement and I delayed replacing it for another year to see if the Model S would be available with AWD in 2015.

As for talking with like minded individuals if that's all you do, that's all you will know. I actually prefer to talk with people with different mindsets and opinions so that I can perhaps learn something and expand my horizons... You might want to try that sometime

Safe driving and at the end of the day whether you end up driving the best car made by Mercedes or the best car made by Tesla you are likely driving one of the safest and best engineered vehicles on the planet so hopefully we can agree to disagree on what is the best car and enjoy what we are fortunate enough to afford to drive and enjoy.

WEBSRFR

That's like saying apart from the horse being replaced by an engine, a model T is not a horse and buggy alternative I consider the drivetrain to be the most important aspect of the car. The drivetrain is what makes the Model S what it is and I consider the complete lack of vibration, noise, and the smooth torque delivery to be luxury features. You may not consider the Model S to be an S class alternative, but I do and so does the people who spent nearly $100K last year and bought more Model S vehicles than an S class.

On this point, I agree with you 100%. If I switch to a Tesla, I am going to miss the ambient lighting, textures, and the feel of materials in a high-end Mercedes. Mercedes still makes some of the finest interiors and for the price, the interior of the Model S is decidedly less luxurious and more modern/minimalistic. The seats on an S class are also so much more comfortable.

I'd say the Model S control surfaces feels like the glass cockpit of a small jet but you can keep thinking it looks like a Honda

Tell your partner to get the HPWC at home fixed or at the least install a 240V outlet as an interim solution. If he has installed a charger at home, he already has 240V coming into that location and an electrician can easily install a 240V outlet. If he paid for the 85kW battery, he will then have 300 miles of range. It is nonsense to say the car is limited to 80 miles because someone hasn't installed a 240V outlet or fixed the charger.

If someone gets one of these cars, they need to do some research and make a few preparations in advance. In my house if I get a Model S, I will need to renovate the garage because at 86 inches, the car is too wide to fit in the garage of my 1940s house. I'd also have to install a 240 volt outlet and possibly a HPWC charger and I certainly would not be whining about not having a functioning charging source installed in the garage as that's my responsibility.

gotwire

He is waiting to get the charger fixed. He is suffering driving his RR Wraith he just got. Lol.

WEBSRFR

Hope he gets his charger fixed soon! Charging on 110V I've heard is very S L O W. I think you only get something like 4 miles of range added to the car each hour as opposed to almost 60 miles of driving added each hour via the HPWC charger. I'm sure he knows this already but he can always just install a 240V dryer outlet and charge the car 7-8X faster. I'd install one anyway just as a backup as the cost for doing that is negligible.

The RR Wraith is a fine car for sure and I love the interior materials and design. Isn't RR now owned by BMW and built on the same platform as a 7-series?

Safe driving and enjoy the weather this weekend in NJ

gotwire

Yes. The rear view mirror and key fob reveal the BMW underneath. I told him he got ripped off for buying a BMW at that price.

Wolfman

Couple of thoughts on this thread re. the Tesla.

This clearly has nothing to do with the W222 S63 and these 2 cars are radically different in their approach.
The Tesla is a fine car but in no way superior to the W222 in any way. It has a different drive train, but it is different, not better. The stated engine issues the OP stated especially in TT V8's are extremely rare and not the norm, perhaps just like Edmunds Tesla.

This is not new tech vs. dinosaur. The electric motor in the Tesla is old school and so are the batteries which are made by Panasonic and pretty much the same that power many laptops.
Long-term reliability of batteries is non existent and much of the price difference in the Tesla models is simply due to the batteries. Replacement cost for these batteries is $30k!!!

So I would keep this a bit in perspective. We are talking about today's cars, not what will happen in 20 years.

WEBSRFR

Okay so I realize that this thread is/was about the S63 and it has steered a bit off course

I've done an immense amount of research about the S class and the Model S so when a few facts were presented that I consider to be inaccurate I had to point that out.

Cars are very subjective and their superiority of certain features are individually based on who pays for the car. I would personally still get a P85 over a S63 because I prefer the electric drivetrain although I realize that means the performance goes down from 3.9 seconds to 4.2 seconds with Model S.

While some might claim the S63 is superior in every way, others might see areas where the S63 excels and certain areas where the Model S excels. Ultimately you vote with your wallet and no one is right or wrong. Same goes for different people's opinions on what drivetrain is better.

I would not call Tesla battery technology old school per se. If it was Mercedes would never have spent around a $1B on stake in Tesla. Their battery technology is based on Panasonic batteries but the secret sauce is in the packaging, charging, discharging, and thermal management technology integrated in the battery pack. If this was such old school technology how come EVs made by BMW and Mercedes are still limited to around a paltry 100 miles? Also the battery technology is not entirely unproven or without somewhat long-term reliability data. A less advanced version of the battery pack has been in use since 2008 in the Tesla Roadster and those batteries by all accounts are holding up exceptionally well and better than what was estimated. Same goes for Model S vehicles with hundreds of thousands of mile already logged. From the research I have done I am entirely comfortable with the longevity of the battery pack, the cost of which will only continue to come down.

Having said that I don't think there is much more to add to the discussion and I will make an effort to disengage from this whole discussion unless I see anything else that I consider to be factually incorrect that had not been already addressed.

Safe travels everyone and it might be fun to look back at this thread in 5-10 years to see how things turned out

hyperion667

S63 is a bad **** AMG

K-A

Yeah, the i cars are gonna be total bombs, unfortunately, but I think they'll turn into something serious, hopefully next generation.

However, I definitely urge you to DRIVE the i3, especially since you appreciate EV's. After getting around how embarrassing it is to be seen in one, it is THE funnest, and most "BMW" driving BMW out right now (that I've driven, anyway, not counting M cars, 1/2 Series or Roadsters of which I haven't driven). Actually, I thought it was more fun than the Tesla, and unlike the Tesla, which makes a kind of "flappy air" sound when you floor it, the i3 has this sort of subtle, but awesomely cool "spaceship takeoff" sound. I found myself constantly wanting to floor the i3 just to hear that sound (and that's probably how EV's will coax those who need some sort of sound to go along with takeoff, me being one of them). Granted, I drove the "base" Tesla, not the P85 or even "middle" one, so not sure if they make different "takeoff sounds", but I doubt it.

The S Class is indeed in another league of total refinement and class than the Model S. The Model S doesn't have that "old world charm" that Mercedes is heavy on, and BMW also employs (which I like, I find it warming and sophisticated). The Model S is very futuristic, with a light dash of that classic Luxury vibe. I found the interior, with the lack of a middle "hump" between the seats, less "sexy" than I thought I would. It feels like a massive family car, inside. It's more youthful than an S Class inside, but the S, again, isn't trying to be that.

Outside, the Model S isn't as classic or classy as the S Class. As much as I don't like some of the Mercedes lines, the Model S design isn't as intricate and the S will have an edge in fit/finish. However, the Model S has a sporty, and what many consider "sexy" exterior, which the W222 isn't on the same level there, as it goes a totally different direction.

As for dynamics, the S is a more luxurious car, but the Model S is also very luxurious. The Model S is also drastically more dynamic than any S550, vastly more sporty, much more red-blooded drive. Many people who want a Model S wouldn't consider an S Class (and the opposite, for that matter) as many cross shop the Model S with sportier cars. That's why the Model S is appealing to such a wide base right now, it walks a pretty fine line.

cookstar

the Tesla P85+ is a great vehicle to drive but lacks the luxury aspect, it it the same price as a 90% fully loaded S550 in Canada at about $150,000. Although I love Tesla I would never spend 150k for it even if I have to pay zero for gas. People who buy Tesla dont buy it because they want to save a buck on gas, its more of a status symbol. If your paying 150k for a vehicle you can afford premium gasoline. Its basically the same for all electric vehicles.... from the Nissan leaf to Honda Fit Ev and so on.

nyca

You are comparing the sales of one unique car, to one car (S) in an entire segment that has many other cars selling in it.

The effective range of this Tesla is not 300 miles - its half that, because I have to get it back home to charge it. So its really 150 miles. I couldn't even do a day round trip in a Tesla from NYC to the east end of long island, much less to Atlantic City, and back. I can fuel a gasoline car in 3 minutes. 50% of US electricity - is produced from burning coal, so the idea that EVs are some environmental "miracle" is a sham.

Its a second or third car for these buyers. They claim to be "green" while they have a GL or a Range Rover parked next to their Tesla. Again, I don't care, its their money (except for the EV subsidy which we all pay for indirectly through the credits they sell which other makers then have to build into their gasoline powered car prices).

If Tesla tries to make a $30-40K car, people won't buy it in the numbers they think based on the craze involving the Model S - because at the $30-40K price point, the buyers want a practical "do everything" car.

K-A

As Tesla implements more charging stations, which they will (and as their stock continues to soar, they'll have more equity to make these investments) and are, distance issues become less of an issue. As well, Tesla showcased their answer to the quickness of gas charging already:
You guys should watch that video, very cool, and gives me the closest vibes of a Steve Jobs type showcase that we've had in some time. That also answers the question about "how expensive it will be to replace a battery down the road", as batteries will be getting constantly swapped out anyway. Elon Musk is really the man for a groundbreaking job like this, because he has a bonafide answer to EVERYTHING, and that's how you have to be in todays tech market, where there are so many wanting a sensationalist headline to tear you apart.

The "Model X" or whatever their midsize car will be called, can very easily become THE most game-changing car in modern auto industry history. I have no doubts that by 2020 Tesla will have models that can go over 500 miles on a single charge. Not to mention, with a wider array of stations that can do the practically instant battery swap, you just found something even more convenient and quick than gas, and without the horrible, toxic oder, fumes, and having to handle that gross gas pump handle with who knows how many germs.

nyca

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/2...x-of-the-year/

Even many owners realize the battery swap thing will never be real:

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/for...p-be-available