abhatti55

I didn't say anything about reliability and my experience is great with BMW so far. BMW engine is more technologically advanced. Comparing apples to apples, Benz introduced the W222 S550 with the same drivetrain as the w221. The 7Gtronic still can't compare to the ZF's used by BMW. 2015 and they are just now getting to heads up displays. Once again no need to discount the new 7 just yet.

Wolfman

My point was that technical advancement has to include reliability. Point taken on the heads up display, but each brand has or misses desirable options IMO. BMW has yet to put a panorama roof on any sedan and their moon roofs suck (it's so noisy when open I never use it). Many features have to be coded on a BMW that can just be set on a MB. And why do I have to pull the handle twice just to open the doors?

ZF is a savior for the worlds top brands. I can't imagine how many cars wouldn't drive well if it ZF wouldn't exist to save their bacon. That said, MB has always baked their own trannies and they believe that they are well mated to their engines.
I have experience with both and wouldn't choose a car based on the transmission.

Agree on not wanting to judge prematurely but having had both I think BMW 7 series are not quite on par.

absent

I would refrain from any judgments yet, a dramatic weight reduction, improved engines and interiors could make it a very interesting alternative.
I want to see, touch and drive one first before I make an opinion.

MBZSW221

LEAKED.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11501018...ge/lowphotos#1

Wolfman

There is quite a discussion going on on bimmerfest re. the new 7.
It seems they dislike it just as much.

I hope that BMW at least ups the ante on electronics if they don't on design. A flagship model has to stand for something after all...

icebeam

Agreed. Who knows what tech they might bring to the table.

UrBusted

They wouldn't want to make it better than the Rolls Royce Ghost so they would be quite limited on what they can do.

wywywywy

While I agree that it's quite bland and no match to the S Class in terms of looks, I think their selling point for this generation is tech and lightweight.

People say it's going to be 300kg lighter than the S, which is HUGE.

Jason B

Lighter isn't always better though. They did that for the w220 s class (2000-2006) and it lost the heavy/secure feel that s class owners have come to love. That car shed almost 800 lbs. Mercedes then got back on track and put that weight back in the w221 and w222 which ride flawless.

UrBusted

At the end of the day, a Mercedes is a Mercedes. It is a car meant for executives. Most business executives would rather have a S Class than a 7 Series, even if the 7 Series is better.

Sol01

there is a 9 series is in the pipelines apparently. that would showcase all their technology. would slot between 7 series and Rolls

Chucky300

That's likely a nice competitor to the New Maybach if priced right.

It would have to be very large - with the majority of the room and comfort directed towards the back seat.

They'd really have to tone down the futuristic look though inside. Realistically - that would be targeting a male, executive, 40+ who would be driven daily to work - likely have clients in vehicle. Beyond the initial "This is a beautiful car" the conversation should remain business, not "look at that piece of tech, that piece of tech, this design look here, that there, etc"

BMW tends to be very aggressive in their design language (which is cool) but knowing their target customer is what pays the bills.

abhatti55

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/01/02/nicer-butt/

The spy pics seem to be of a base model car and I hope the 750 with sport package will be better. The interior seems to be low range too. It is supposed to have Bowers & Wilkins sound now, so that along with the extended leather options should make things better. Maybe not a direct S competitor but just as luxurious with it's own tech should keep things interesting.

Sol01

yes. below was posted on bimmerpost from a BMW insider


"The change to the luxury market has meant that customers continue to look for further exclusivity above the standard luxury sedan and that is where the 9er fits in. The S-Klasse and indeed the 7er are know as the affordable luxury segment which means sold in volume and not exclusive.
The market has changed to the fact that there is an opening above standard luxury cars for customers that want further exclusivity from a BMW and a Mercedes which is where the Maybach and the 9er come in."

TangoRed

Here are the pics from autoweek.nl, who originally leaked the pics.








Meh, the V12 is still devastatingly effective and didn't need an update. It is ancient though and I look forward to continued advancements, as BMW's upcoming V12 for the G11 will finally make MB's unit look less strong.

He is right- the W222 is on an evolved W221 platform. And you're certainly right about the N63 V8 BMW uses...they actually just launched a program to actively replace/repair motors due to manufacturer defects. Owners are getting phone calls starting Monday.

Good strategy. I think the G11 is going to look very boring but be quite the athletic drive.

Chucky300

The sad thing about the BMW is that they REALLY make the interiors the same.
This is the 2015 3 Series Dash


This is the 2016 7 Series Dash

TangoRed

They're undoubtedly similar. But this G11 7-series pictured isn't equipped with the passenger-side touch screen and we haven't seen full-on dash pics yet.

Honestly the one challenger I'd be most worried about is the next Audi A8. This 7-series will be better dynamically than the S-class I bet but will not be tugging anyone's heartstrings.

K-A

Oh no, that looks really bad. The side/rear view looks like a soulless Lexus. The front like clustered mess with the ever awkward "grill to headlights connection". Why do they insist on that clunky look?! Go back to the clean way!

I'm expecting the drive to hopefully for their sake be the best in segment, with all the CF and the fact that the W222 DOES in fact ride on the W221 chassis and isn't a revolution from the W221's drive. No question the next 7 will outdo the W222 in dynamics, question is; by how much.

BMW can really benefit from a revolution on the F01's drive, while M-B didn't need it on the W221 since it drove exactly as it should so screwing with the formula could've hurt them more than helped on the W222. The F01 on the other hand needs a revolution away from its drive, and the new 7 needs to deliver on that, and that's what can allow it to claim the class away from the W222.

Edit:

To be fair; one thing these pics don't show is the excellent proportions the car has. This is one area the 7 will have well lover the W222. BMW has modernized the F01 stance by pushing the wheels closer to the length of the car, while the W222 moved backwards in that sense, taking the W221's wheelbase and instead extending the overhangs (which they make work by as usual with newer models; shrinking the greenhouse and slinging the cabin back). I feel that BMW always does stance and proportions better than M-B, though. Also, the laser lights will be an obvious innovation in the tech field. I'm not too concerned with tech on cars, but the 7 will assumedly outdo the W222 in tech which will be marketable and catch the attention of some segment shoppers.

Germancar1

It wasn't just sheer weight, it was the build quality of the W220 that sucked. Everything was cheaper also. The W220 still had a creamy ride, but the substance (and reliability) was not there.

M

Germancar1

It won't matter either way, this segment is about luxury not which car corners better or can post the best skidpad numbers. The current 7-Series outdid the W221 in dynamics and it didn't mean squat as the W221 ruled the sales charts for the majority of those years. BMW is a 3-Series company and their heart ain't in the 7-Series, never has been. The key will be the tech, luxury and how well it is all integrated and functions. Like you said, we know the 7 will be sportier, but that has never helped it beat the S where it counts, the sales charts and in status.

M

K-A

Yeah. The 7 seems to continuously be an afterthought for BMW after the E65 which was horrid but tried hard. The F01 is very nice imo but missing that "it" factor. BMW's flagship is definitely the 3 if maybe the 5. But really the 3.

The 7 needs a sense of character and reason to get the S. Like the E38, which was BMW Large Sedan perfection.

Chucky300

I had a 2002 S500 with every single option including the first generation of Active Body Control.

There was a ton of plastic in that car. Complete step down from the W140 that it replaced. The ride was indeed butter but when my ABC suspension failed, THREE times in 6 years ... the catalytic converter 4 times....Engine and suspension mounts broke every year, etc.

It was all because they had recently merged with Chrysler and were low on cash - especially paying out warranty claims on chrysler cars.

Just a total disappointment. Beautiful car though. I miss her even with all those problems. It was very difficult for me to trade her in for the W221. Felt like i was throwing the old girl out. (which I was).

Chucky300

This is what they did with their BMW INDIVIDUAL classification.

Problem is - it costs a fortune for the buyer to pick a 7 series Individual.

BMW S Class Designo adds 6000 to the price tag, where as the Individual is nearly twice that much.

It certainly does give the car the IT factor.
Just look at this door in the back seat of my fathers 2014.

This is how every BMW 7 should look if this is their executive money bags car for those with the cash to spend.

K-A

W220 is still the nicest modern S design, imo. Which makes perfect sense to me as it was one of, if not the last of the legendary Bruno Sacco design oversights. It was also perhaps the most innovative S of any modern S' respective time. Unfortunate that the quality was such a mess and compromised, thus rendering said innovations half baked and working against it. When it worked, it drove great. I saw guys claim that it held up
very well to their new W221 in ride. If the quality was right, I think it would've been the S equivalent to the 7's E38.

K-A

Yes, that's beautiful. I'm not BMW's CEO and he's obviously intent to keep the boardroom happy, but I think it would bode them well to dedicate resources to making one generation of 7 go "all out" like that car to really try and dethrone the S. The E38 went so far, and though it can be argued that the E65 went "all out" in the very way I mentioned, it was marred in very disagreeable styling. It seems like after that, BMW designed a beautiful F01, but just didn't put enough push, or something, behind it. It has all the potential it needs, but it just somehow gives an impression that BMW doesn't think it's all that important. I can't put my finger on it, but I think it's that BMW's soul is in smaller and sporty cars, so sometimes they find themselves in an awkward position with the larger cars. MB have the opposite problem re: their downmarket attempts.

While MB make it very clear that they're desperate to maintain the S as the status leader and continuous dominant in its sector. And the market clearly appreciates that passion.