BluetecKING

His facts are wrong. LOL. The S550 has 449HP not 429 and 0-60 is around 4.8 not 4.9.

Germancar1

Where did you see this about Mercedes dropping due to the GLA/CLA/C in the JDP Survey?

M

K-A

I know MB dropped hard I both JDP and CR. CR said the CLA is one big reason. It's just pretty widely assumed it's the onslaught of new car launches. The C has been a disaster of it's own by perusing common issues on the C forum.

Germancar1

The drop at JDP had NOTHING to do with the C, CLA or GLA. The JDP Dependability Survey where MB dropped (if that is what you're talking about) looks 3 years back, in this case 2012 model year cars. 2012 being the year that Mercedes went to direct-injection and turbos in various cars throughout their lineup. CR and JDP look at two separate things. The misinformation and sheer ignorance on this site is staggering, then it all gets repeated and further ingrained.

M

K-A

Well that bodes terribly for when the public disaster that is the CLA (mainstream media has even reported the CR report on it) and disaster quality launch that is the C, GLA terrible marks from MB's own owner base, etc. play out. The 2014 S will also likely hurt as it was #2 in that recent "least reliable cars" list by some auto media outlet.

The CR report then would be more accurately reflecting said launches as it dropped MB from I believe #13 to #24 in just one year, if I'm remembering correctly.

clembo

Why don't you post this on the CLA site instead of the S Class? Since you drive a rebadged Q5 you should stay within your range.

emnic1

I believe we need to put these "reliability" rankings in perspective. The most reliable brands tend to be completely different species, i.e. Toyota, Subaru, etc. These are great cars for their purpose. Mercedes and others are much more complex machines because they serve more than the purpose of getting you from point A to point B. It's like comparing the reliability of a Rolex to a Timex ... the Timex will always win that limited comparison.

K-A

True and I did point that out, but the point being that if they're dwelling in the range of the CLA/GLA/etc. now, then they've opened themselves up to the markets and comparisons of appliance cars who are relevant to those boring scores.

Germancar1

It isn't much of a public disaster as it is a hype session here. If it were truly that big of a deal the car would see a big drop in sales. Truth of the matter is most people don't give a damn about any of this. Otherwise no one would buy Land Rovers, VWs and other trouble brands either.

M

emnic1

Owners of E Class on up should give a damn. A great point was made earlier about how difficult it is to get timely service at the dealership. As they sell more of the low end, less reliable, models, that will only get worse. More importantly, I think, is the long history of negatives when luxury brands go beyond their expertise and, conversely, when economical brands try to move up (i.e. VW). The MB brand image built over so many decades is not going to remain as prestigious with these new offerings. While CLA buyers may not know better or care, S Class buyers should be concerned when their brand is compared negatively to Buicks and Fords.

2015 CR Report Quotes:

"Mercedes-Benz was the biggest loser this year, dropping from 10th to 21st place due to a decline in reliability for several of its models and the low-scoring, unreliable new CLA."

"To sum up, it's pretty likely that the CLA250 you're going to get will sticker close to $37,000 rather than the tempting $30,000 base price. But if you can do without the cachet, many alternatives might fit the bill better, such as a Volkswagen CC, Buick Regal, and even a loaded Ford Fusion. Any of these are more enjoyable to drive and can cost thousands less to boot."

Jason B

Damn. Punch to the stomach. Ford Fusion. I will admit, they look nice, but you won't be catching me in one.

Wolfman

Sorry for my rant, here it goes
CR has written some of the dumbest info on Mercedes for the last 20 years and I have yet to find a Mercedes buyer who cares what CR writes. CR seems to fit the typical Toyota buyer.
JDP in contrast has been helpful because it covers things that matter during ownership.

That said, I am surprised by all this nonsense re. Mercedes is going downhill by selling all these many and cheaper models.

Is this just reflecting a personal opinion of what the Mercedes brand is and should stand for?

In reality Mercedes has manufactured cars spanning just about all price points for 30 years plus. This includes trucks and vans of all flavors.
The C-Class and E-Class have been the bread and butter of the brand and that's nothing new.
The A-Class on which the CLA is based on has been introduced almost 20 years ago.

So what changed? Just because Mercedes has decided to bring more of its existing model range to the US and it is doomed?

PeterUbers

When I bought Toyotas all I cares about was consumer reports and how reliable this $15-20k car would be. Once I bought the benz's all I cared about was would it make me happy everyday on the drive and could I put up with some "high maintenance" issues along the way ... The answer of course was a resounding yes.

Germancar1

Getting timely service at certain dealers was a problem long before now. All the gloom and doom talk about Mercedes' image is really quite amusing because it never happens as the dooms day forecasters say. This very same thing was said from 1998-2006 when Mercedes built their last batch of clunkers. Mercedes will likely fix this in short order, and the problem isn't nearly as widespread as it was back then. The real problem will be when the day comes where people are not buying high end Mercedes' because of the CLA. It just hasn't happened yet, hell it didn't happen when the S-Class itself was junk, i.e. the W220 2000-2006 S-Class. I don't think you guys here understand how powerful the Mercedes brand cachet it. A CLA means nothing when you look at the higher end cars, absolutely nothing. The S-Class outsold the Lexus LS, Audi A8 and BMW 7-Series combined last year. Word is Mercedes working hard on a fix for the CLA's issues for the 2016 model year and if I know Mercedes by the time the second generation MFA cars debut they will be much nicer and live up to the Mercedes name and values.

I agree the CLA and GLA are an embarrassment, but hell their sales are not even slowing down. It takes years and years of damage from these cars in buyers hands for a real problem to materialize. One year in CR means zilch as far as sales and brand cachet go. The key is how long Mercedes takes to fix the problems and pull themselves back up to the top.

CR has never been a Mercedes supporter and it has not mattered in the least. CR is irrelevant to people who "want" a Mercedes, only people who shop cars like appliances live by CR. Mercedes sales were never even bothered by CR before and they won't be now. By the time the word really gets out about the CLA they will have addressed it like they did with previous buggy cars, i.e. the 2003 E-Class....the 2007 facelift turned into the one of the most reliable Mercedes' ever. You totally miss the point if you think a S-Class buyer should care about the "brand" being compared to a Ford or Buick when a S-Class itself it head and shoulders above anything Ford or Buick makes. Common sense should tell the S-Class buyer that it isn't the brand being compared to Ford or Buick, it is the CLA a car that isn't related to the S-Class in any way.

Long as Mercedes keeps the rest of the cars in the premium space, as the C just joined this year in a big way, the CLA and GLA are not a factor in them losing their prestige. You think the AMG GT or upcoming S-Class Cabriolet or the S600 Maybach are not going to be bought because of the CLA? Nothing could be further from reality. Mercedes isn't known for the CLA/GLA and they're seen as abnormalities. The C, E, S, SL, GL, G etc are the cars that define Mercedes, particularly the E and S.

Now what must fix is the C-Class problems, just like the did on the 2014 S. That they can't afford to fool with.

M

Germancar1

CR is really for people who are totally clueless about cars.

M

islandbeef

You gotta pay to play.
Cachet isn't for the timid.

Success favors the bold.

K-A

I get the point but sales don't mean anything in this segment to me. Reason being: The CLA/GLA are marketing driven, little value, pandering to volume. They have to sell, it's their only value to the company. Low common denominator, etc.

At a new down market segment, for a couple hundred dollars a month, with a giant Star on the grille, and design that milks what you're used to from higher priced models (until now), it'll sell no matter what. The issue is it affecting the brand long term, and how it will translate down the road. In years, if they pump out cars like those, MB or anyone would become dragged down in perception, especially to younger markets who grow up with the new lower models as the new normal.

I've had two people who don't care much about cars ask me along the lines of: "Did you hear about that Mercedes that got a junk score? When did they start putting out such bad cars?".

It'll sell. It's a bean counter volume creation intended to bring up market share with nothing substantial offered. Its only intent is to get pumped out on roads to those looking for the cheapest way into the "star". But that has a negative effect on the value of what MB stood for prior, that got them to where they are. Same goes for any brand in a similar place.

clembo

I bet that didn't happen.

You are so full of crap.

Are they the same two people that told you that 40% of a new benz is made in China? You pushed that crap for a while yet never apologized when you were proven wrong.

Troll.

K-A

Denial is a sour bean. Those 110% did happen. For good reason.

I wasn't necessarily wrong. Nobody can find the parts list of 2010/2011 E's of which I had and referenced.

And the majority of the new C is using American parts, built in America (U.S cars). That's been a QC disaster of its own so far.

Germancar1

Sorry man, but this is nothing but just your feelings, nothing factual. Mercedes has put clunkers on the road before and then came right back from it. You don't seem to get it that as long as the other models are what they're supposed to be, the CLA/GLA isn't going to drag down a whole brand because most people have common enough sense to know that the GLA/CLA aren't Mercedes' best or even their realm. You simply don't get it. You don't understand how this works.

So two people who don't know squat about cars said something about Mercedes, and this means what? There are people who still think Ford owns Volvo and Land Rover and that Audi's are nothing but re-badged VWs. The world is full of automotive-ignorant people. Until people stop buying C, E, S and all the other models because of the CLA/GLA nothing you've said matters. Don't you get that people bought the W220 S-Class and it was a terrible car. That didn't destroy Mercedes and that was their top car. The CLA/GLA surely isn't.

Sales may not mean anything to YOU, but that is why MB, BMW, Lexus and every other car company on the planet, is in business.

M

Germancar1

You were wrong as hell actually. Think for a second, a German car with 40% Chinese parts? Do you really dislike Mercedes that much to believe something so dumb that it doesn't even pass the most basic of common sense tests? Seriously, does that make sense to you? You spew so much misinformation here it is unreal.


M

clembo

"necessarily" What? Wrong is not a grey area. You are either right or wrong. You were wrong but you still want to argue?

Are you a Clinton?

K-A

Is the last part intended as a compliment?

I say that because as I've said from the beginning, my recollection of a 2010/2011 E that I had, had a large amount of Chinese AND/OR American parts content (it was split into 2 or 3 categories). I still have yet to see any stickers saved from those cars. It wasn't until 2012 when M-B started including content on the actual window sticker (before that it was a separate sticker placed on the windshield).

This is a VERY different time for M-B. M-B used to be considered fairly exclusive, expensive and aspirational. The new generation sees M-B more and more as a mass market brand with some lower volume halo models. The different is that now, the "crappy" models are starting to take a hold of the conversation. Old and/or nostalgic people will always know it as the "S Class brand", but when you go to a dealer, or roam the streets, how many S to CLA's do you see now, or S to C's, etc? It's only gonna get worse as they go full Toyota with a car for every garage, in every segment, no matter how cheap or expensive. This has annihilated the prestige of many brands before M-B. You can't spread yourself thin and maintain aspirational status like what M-B once acquired.

MONEY matters. If VOLUME was all that mattered, then Apple would have 40 different models of the iPhone out right now, and would slap their name on Microwaves, why not, every household has one?

And BRAND matters. Brand is what got M-B to where they are. That brand was built from a focused and concise business model. It's not impressive at all that a Mercedes that is a literal piece of junk at its price range, gets discounted to high hell then rented out for $200 a month. That's brand dilution, milking, and a terrible long term strategy. It's exploiting what the forefathers of the company worked to build in order for them to have something to exploit in the first place. As they expand their lineup, their quality has been going back to the pits and their designs are becoming almost hilariously questionable (GLA, GLE, etc.? I see the same or more negative sentiment expressed about those as the 5 GT and X4 have generated for BMW).

I've said it many times, but let's check back in 10, 20 years and see what those generations see M-B as. It'll be very different, at this rate.

I think you touched on the potential for that yourself. However, where we see differently is whether it's leaning toward likely a negative or positive.

And it takes a lot of manpower to put out models in every range, then do facelifts, then have to design all new models, and also keep up with quality. The cheap models ARE affecting the quality of the higher models, and owner happiness of the higher models if/when they have to go to a dealer now teeming with Toyota competitors (CLA, GLA, and growing). The new C has been nothing short of a QC disaster in itself for its first year. The W204/W212/W221 launched pretty spotless in comparison. The 2014 S has had its share of problems as well. M-B can only tend to them so fast now with the CLA/GLA being their own (now public) disasters.

Ask yourself this: If M-B have to work around the clock to "correct" problems with the CLA, then seemed to give the 2014 S the shortest MY run that I can remember, then have to do all these overly-extensive facelifts. What kind of company are they to begin with? How many times can they be given a pass on "fixing" issues of apparently flawed cars thus screwing owners who bought the early models? This is a company that once prided itself on timeless and relevant models spanning years upon years, that didn't "need" to have extensive reconstruction or tending to, too early on.

I know that M-B has been considered a volume manufacturer for a long time. But not like this. M-B was always the one volume manufacturer who's name was still exotic, prestigious and aspirational. That's what they're putting to risk.

If all that matters is sales, then that means Toyota is the best car company and Ferrari is the worst. But we all know, especially as enthusiasts, that it sways the opposite way, for a reason.

I'm not looking to devolve into an argument here. I get the reasons why M-B is doing this. But I think what I've been preaching from the days I was turning from an avid M-B ultrafan is playing out precisely as I predicted. Literally, exactly. The quest for sales domination gets met at the expense of product. Yes, the S is great, and I'm advising my Mom to consider the new C Class (though I'm indifferent or polarized on it for the most part) for her needs, and there'll be low volume halo models here and there, but M-B is becoming a volume brand, thus the volume models, volume mindset and even volume-fleet like drive style (the new C/CLA/GLA being examples) start running the show, and that's the issue.

K-A

This said: I understand that this is an M-B forum. My sentiment is naturally met with jeers, disagreements, different ways of perception, etc.

That's fine. I probably shouldn't be preaching it here, I get that this is an escape for enthusiasts, so although I don't think it's "wrong" to do so, it's not the best place to spread that energy. But I've been saying this stuff for a while and I see it playing out.

I have a fiance in the market for a CLA type of vehicle, and other family in the market for a C type of vehicle (as said above). It's unfortunate as I was hoping the CLA would be a "cheap" and funky looking way to put an M-B back in the garage. But I think it's POS compared to cars that cost half of what it does. It's literally that bad. An Audi A3 is like a buttoned up sophisticated adult with brains and brawns in comparison. It's saddening to see the company who owned "quality over volume", "function over form" putting out the most marketing driven, least intelligent, most gaudy, cost cut, least substance, most harsh, crude, and profit-greed-shareholder driven cars out there in the CLA/GLA. While others are putting out pretty quality small cars at even much less pricing. It means M-B is selling that Star which the CLA is now in seemingly decent numbers having tackily lighted up, more than the product behind it. That's anti-MB in itself.

Seriously, a lit-up Star option on a $200 a month car, and some people don't agree that the brand value is at risk? Can you imagine M-B lighting up its star, feeling like it's "that kind of company", and thinking that it would even need to, to cover up something that has such little value otherwise, during its heyday when it built the brand to what it stands for today?

What I wish they'd do more than anything, and I've said this for a long time, is split the brand, and make the C the line in the sand. Everything C and above is a "Mercedes-Benz", and just buy some other volume brand (like Mitsubishi or someone else struggling, but with volume credentials, who can probably be bought for not too high a price).

Anyway. I genuinely don't mean to p*ss on the M-B enthusiast parade anymore. But I think those who spend a lot of money on M-B's these days more than ever, have a vested interest in protecting said brand if they see it how I do, in any way.

Quality over quantity. Anybody can put a valuable badge on something worth less, then discount then sell it and sell in droves for that less worth. That's short sighted investor pandering, not long term business and brand building/sustaining. If sales matter, then high end brands would wish they were mass market brands, and we all know that isn't true. Maintaining aspirational status which means some semblance of at least the illusion or perception of exclusivity is important to a brand marketing itself as premium.

Germancar1

What you don't seem to understand is that Mercedes ceased being exclusive back in the 90's when the first ML came out. There is nothing exclusive about the Mercedes brand and it has been this way for the past 20 years. You're simply living in the past and clinging to some notion that is outdated.

What you see on the street has nothing to do with what Mercedes sells the most of. Don't you grasp that Mercedes just sold more S-Classes in 2014 than the LS, 7-Series and A8 combined. Think about that man. They own the market. This wouldn't have happened if the CLA, which also was introduced that year, was ruining the brand. You keep wanting them to go back to the says of selling just the 190E, 300E and 560SEL and the 560SL. It is over. Has been for almost 20 years. The first ML was junk and look at the brand today, they recovered from it. You're scenario is invalid because Mercedes always realizes when they have a problem and then fixes it. The second generation of these FWD cars will be much better now that Mercedes knows they are in hot demand, they'll spend the money to make them right.

Don't believe me? Look at how long they worked on the 190E to C-Class until now to make that car right.



So what's your point, Mercedes makes a ton of it.


You keep repeating the same thing over and over and I've already addressed this. I'm talking about MB, not BMW.
By then the world and markets will have changed again and now you're saying 10 to 20 years...read this carefully man....THIS IS THE SAME THING THEY SAID BACK IN 1983 WHEN THE 190E CAME OUT... Seriously.

Mercedes has one of the biggest R&D budgets out there, so again you're telling me that it takes a lot of manpower to do things, what is your point? No the cheap models are not affecting the quality of the higher end models. Any new tech heavy car like the S-Class is going to have problems the first year and even then it wasn't a "disaster" like you keep saying. Public disaster, yet the cars sell and have waiting lists? See that tells me you don't know what you're talking about and/or you're just full of hype. Cars that are "public disasters" don't sell and they sure don't sell out.


First of all the only extensive facelift done was for the E-Class. Nothing else has gotten a facelift like that so again, more hype and BS and no substance to that statement. The S-Class was given a short MY2014 for a number of reasons, adding the touchpad was one also. It wasn't all because of quality.

See this is why I say you don't know what you're talking about. There was never anything "exotic" about Mercedes, at least since the 50's and 60's. According to the sales of their higher end cars, they're still an aspirational brand, with the foot firmly on the neck of Lexus, BMW and Audi in the upper segments. Nearly 20K S-Classes sold last year talks, BS talk walks. The ATP on the S-Class is over 90K. NO ONE GETS that type of money at that volume in this segment.

Nope didn't say that and you know it. What I said was that you have to look at what is selling vs the competition, not just overall sales. The day the C, E and S stop being #1 or #2 in their respective segments upon introduction then Mercedes has a problem, until then you really don't have any proof of anything you've said here.

Yet nothing has happened. Yes they've dropped the ball on quality of their lower end models, mainly the CLA and the C-Class but in the case of the C it is a first year thing, same as the S, not because these are cheaply made cars. Glitches, not just outright poor quality. The CLA on the other hand that is a cheaply built car for sure.


I agree, it is causing some problem, but this "disaster" and gloom and doom forecast is just nonsense IMO. Why would you steer anyone towards a C-Class which you think is a disaster?

Man, Mercedes has been a volume brand for the past 10 years!!! You're living in an outdated past.

M