Wolfman

Great to hear you are enjoying your new car!

While I don't think that MB is giving up much marketshare to Tesla in the near future, upcoming models may change that. We'll see.

I am curious, having driven the D model for an extended drive, I noticed how relatively noisy the car was compared to the S. Felt like a fair amount of tire noise and whining from the front motor was audible in the front seats.
Are you experiencing the same?

WEBSRFR

Um. Not sure if you've driven a Model S P85D -- it is a monster. I didn't buy my car to race on a track and I doubt many people here bought their S class to race on a track either.

I do most of my driving around the speed limits ~+10-20% and for my day to day driving where it counts the P85D is pretty much indomitable for just about any supercar. The torque curve is surreal and with AWD, max acceleration is available at 0 RPM all the way to about the triple digits.

Any supercar owner who pulls up at a traffic light next to a P85D thinking they can cut over is going to go home embarrassed with a very bruised ego... For mechanical internal combustion cars to deliver max acceleration everything needs to line up and you need to be in the right mode, with the sweet spot for the gear shifts, and everything timed perfectly. With the Model S you press the "Insane" button and you are done.

I could out accelerate most exotic supercars on my way home with 2 passengers and a bunch of groceries. If a 5+2 passenger car can out accelerate a "supercar" is the "supercar" still a "supercar?

Tesla has reinvented the supercar and they are about to release a software update for the P85D to enhance the performance even further. They are going to increase the max speed, performance at higher speed, and also recalibrate the drive unit to deliver even faster acceleration to 60.

WEBSRFR

Hi there and good to see you on the forum again! When did you test drive the Model S? They just had a mid cycle refresh that addressed many concerns that people had and one of the improvements they made is specifically to the noise insulation. They switched to a new material and added noise insulation in a variety of new places.

If you have not driven one over the last few months, you might want to take one out for a test drive. Tesla does not wait for model year cycles to make changes. According to a Motor trend article, Tesla makes over 20 improvements to the car each week and while some are minor other improvements are major, like improving noise insulation.
Even with the improved insulation you do hear some tire noise but some of this is perception because with the engine noise completely gone all you hear is the whine and the tires and these sounds stand out more because you don't have the hum of the engine to drown out and soften the other sounds. For example if you have allergies and run an air purifier that has the effect of drowning out and softening everything else around you and when you turn it off, you suddenly hear everything else...

The Tesla is still an incredibly quiet car. So much so that Continental is developing a special tire for the Model S to reduce the tire noise because it is more audible on an EV absent of engine/exhaust/transmission sounds.

http://www.continental-tires.com/www..._tesla_en.html

When my tires wear out I'm going to get the special "silent" tires but it seems for now they are only available with 21" wheels and I have the 19" wheels.

http://my.teslamotors.com/sv_SE/foru...p-21-tires-wow

I think you are right in that right now the market share Mercedes is loosing to Tesla is limited but that share is going to get increasingly larger as more people learn about Tesla and their vehicles are improved and get better.

Tesla sold about 32,000 Model S vehicles last year and they expect about 50,000+ this year and all this comes at the expense of the German's lunch money to some extent.

There is also a snowballing effect to this after a few years because people get comfortable with and stick to a brand they already have. Consumer Reports reported that the satisfaction rate for Tesla owners, at 99%, is the highest in the automotive industry. With all those people who are now driving Teslas it is going to be that much harder for other manufacturers to now win them back in later years. I know Mercedes will have to build one heckuva car for me to want to give up my P85D

Wolfman

I did drive the model S 85p last year and model D (a few months back by now). The D was significantly noisier which I contributed to the e-motor in the front. The sound is best described by whining. The car was fully loaded D demo.

When I mentioned market share I meant that Tesla will not increase that with the model S now or in the future. Increased market share would could through the SUV to some extend but primarily through the $30-$40k model. Forgot the model designations...

At that price range, people will go EV as they are much more cost sensitive to overall cost of ownership than the typical luxury car owner.

K-A

Nice to see it's living up to expectations. Interestingly Porsche being the most boutique German seems to be most cognizant of not expanding with more internal combustion all new models (being that they feel they've already got that covered enough), so their next all new introduction will likely be by 2019 via an all Electric midsize Sedan. Admittedly the concept of a Porsche without a visceral ICE sound and mechanical pull seems a bit odd, but it's a positive gesture for many reasons, and sounds exciting.

Landers

What I always find interesting is how misleading the Tesla numbers are. People always talk about the P85D getting 270 miles of range and going to 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. That simply is not a correct statement or at least not the whole story.

It is in the 4 second range if you want the range to be 270 miles. Insane mode drops the range significantly. What you get in an S is both the range and the 0-60 time along with the luxurious interior. I can appreciate what Musk is doing though as in he is always trying to improve and doing so when he really doesn't need to. Competition is good and I do think that the Tesla is a viable option for a S buyer. In fact it would be #2 on my list. The shortcomings on the interior are to me on the same level as the shortcomings of the performance of the S550 when compared to the P85D. In the end since I spend more time inside the car and simply have no need to be able to get to 60mph 1 second or so faster the S makes more sense.

Finally I always try to think of things from a different perspective. If the S550 was released with the interior of the Tesla people would be up in arms as to how cheap it looked. If the Tesla had the performance numbers of the S550 I don't think anyone would say a thing about it. While not as good as it is now had it been released with the S550 numbers all would have been fine.

Merccedes S550 - $100K performance, $100K looks, $150K-$200K interior
Tesla - $150K-$200K performance, $100K looks, $50K interior.

G55K

Not sure if you read my earlier post but I spend several days driving my brother's P85D. I had an order in for one so he let me borrow his. After spending several days driving his car I canceled my order. I so badly wanted to like this car but I hated it. It's incredibly fast off the line but loses steam quickly. The 0-60 time is incredible but the 1/4 mile time and trap speed, not so much. I have had several Ferrari's and currently own a Ferrari FF. From 0-60 the Tesla D will put a hurtin on the FF but the FF will quickly catch up and pass it by the end of a 1/4. Don't get me wrong, the Tesla is a quick car, and impressively engineered, but 0-60 does not make a super car.

I also drive a 2015 S550. It's the car that I purchased instead of the Tesla. The interior, even with the new seats, is the Tesla's Achilles heal. My teenage boys spent about 100 miles in the back seats of the Tesla and pushed me to buy the S550 instead. They found the Tesla seats to be very uncomfortable. Like me, they thought they'd love the Tesla and were surprised when, after spending time in it, they didn't. We love the S550, especially for longer trips. It's refined, quiet, very comfortable, and the interior is amazing.

I love cars and really don't have a brand loyalty. I'm no fan boy and you won't find me bashing another brand. I've had them all. But, the Tesla is not for me and calling it a super car is a real stretch in my opinion. However, I do understand the loyal following as it is a remarkable engineering achievement. Enjoy your Tesla. It is a great car.

UrBusted

Most of us here buy the car for its interior and luxuriousness alone. If a fast car was required a GTR can easily do the job. The Tesla is good if you want to take people around without paying for fuel and want to accelerate to 60 every few minutes form 0. Those days are long gone for me as I've got a family now and been in trouble for speeding more than enough times. I understand that people also buy the Tesla because of not paying for fuel e.t.c which are good enough reasons to get the car but its not for me.

WEBSRFR

I saw your pervious post and I certainly understand that the Model S is not for everyone. It is however the currently the quickest accelerating 1/4 mile 4 door sedan on the market. And it just became even faster today as Elon announced a new software update this afternoon that within 10 days is going to increase the top speed and performance of the Model S P85D even further.

I'm going to wake up one morning and find that the performance of the car has improved and apparently the new software update also retunes and enhances the audio system of the car. They also just announced a valet mode as a part of the new software update that I will be able to activate to limit acceleration and set a max speed when I hand over the keys to a valet. The software updates every 4 months that add features and enhances the car is the other part of owning a Model S that I really enjoy. I'm in software development so it is nice to have a car that is built so well with well designed software and a user interface that keeps getting better.

I doubt I'd be testing out the high speed capabilities of my Model S as I just care more about day to day driving and being able to accelerate when I need to. I always stay within about 20/25% of the posted speed limits and at these ranges the P85D dominates just about any other car.

As for the seat comfort, did you drive a car with the Next Gen seats? It is a $3,500 option that is well worth it. I didn't like the original front seats and when we test drove the a car with the previous generation seats my girlfriend hated the back seat. If you get the Next Gen seats it also upgrades the rear seats and I find the new seats to be superbly comfortable.

I don't consider the Model S to be a supercar. It is my daily driver and what we use for groceries and driving around town but the fact that I can out accelerate or keep up with just about every "supercar" out there to about 80mph kind of makes me wonder what is the point of a purpose built, high performance, two-seater , lightweight "supercar" if it can't keep up with a 5,000lb 5+7 seater sedan in normal day-to-day driving conditions. Yes, I realize the supercars may possibly have an edge on a track but I doubt many S class buyers are into track racing their cars.

I fully agree with you that the S class interior is still more plush and luxurious. There's no question about that and I did give up on a nicer interior but for my needs I got so much with the Tesla. The odd thing is I normally would not have paid $124++ for a car and I could have easily bought a very nicely loaded S class for about $95K. I just found the technology in the S class to be so superior to anything available at any price and to be able to have that with insane acceleration to leave behind just about anyone else on the road sealed the deal. Had I've bought an S550 I might have still been intrigued perhaps by a Bentley or another brand that might offer an even better interior but with the Tesla I can honestly say that there is no other car in the world -- at any price. -- that I would rather own than what I'm driving now. That's what makes the Model S so special to me. I'd make the same decision in a heartbeat.

FWIW I am also pleased that we could manage to build such a world class vehicle right here in America with American innovation, technology, software, and labor. It's about time we got back into manufacturing world class products that change the world without offshoring everything.

I think Mercedes needs to stop with the BS hybrids and build a long range, high performance, premium EV. Seems like Porsche is building such a vehicle that is expected to come out in a few years.

Finally let me just say that you sound like a very decent person and we can agree or disagree respectfully on certain viewpoints... At the end of the day you picked one of the finest cars available and I'm sure you will absolutely enjoy your S550! There's really no bad choice with either vehicle and just as much as I love my P85D, I can understand how someone else could love their S550 just as much

G55K

Like you, it makes me proud to know that such an innovative automobile is designed and made in the U.S.

I just had lunch with my brother. His wife has the Tesla today and he was able to pull up her current speed on his iPhone. I have to admit, that's pretty cool. My understanding is that the new valet mode will allow the user to dial back torque and speed? Cost aside, does this make it a safe, actually very safe, option for a teen driver? If I can limit my son's speed, and see how fast he's going on my iPhone, I might be tempted to add a Tesla to the fleet. Do you know much about the capabilities of the valet mode yet?

Red Marko

Good post.
And how true...

Fly by night

I know it doesn't have the same performance but i always thought the Fisker Karma looked much better than the Tesla MS both interior/exterior.

K-A

I agree. I think the Karma is much better looking.

When they both launched, I didn't follow them closely enough to know which was design was built by the "good one" and which was the POS. I always hoped that the Karma was the "Tesla" since it looks a lot better, imo, and would have the engineering quality behind it as well. I.e best of both worlds.

Fly by night

My neighbor actually owns both a Tesla and a Fisker he said there's many things that he actually likes about the Fisker overall. He said Fisker gets way more attention on road or parked in valets.

WEBSRFR

There is no question about it, the Fisker is the better looking car but if you have any doubt on what a POS it is, just look at the video below. It's a video posted by an actual owner so it is not biased in any way. It is a bit long but it is almost entertaining to watch as it is amusing all the things they got horribly wrong with the car and its user interface.

I take the flawless user interface of the Tesla for granted but watching the horrible attributes mentioned on the video below makes me appreciate all the hard work that went into making the Tesla user interface work so well. For example, when I pull up to my house, the Tesla knows based on GPS that I have a steep driveway and it raises the air suspension of the car automatically. Also based on GPS, as I get close to the garage, it shows the Homelink buttons on the touchscreen just when I need them to open the garage door.

Contrast the seamless intelligent design of the Tesla UI to the mess on the video below. I love technology but based on the video below I feel so sorry for the poor sobs who bought the Fisker.

Fly by night

I asked my neighbor friend, his response..... being an owner of both cars (MS and Karma) was pretty light hearted. He hinted some of the Tesla owners get offended easily because the car kind of looks like a Kia/ Ford fusion cross and doesn't have that excitement within the exterior despite the super car performance. He mentioned Fisker had updated new software before the bankruptcy that works fine. The review was from like 3-4 years ago with original software.
The only issue he said he has is finding a dealer for service however he hasn't really required much thus far. I agree the Fisker is one of the best looking vehicles on the road. Perhaps with the new owners they'll do it better next time around. The technology of Tesla is 2nd to none but for 125k there are many other options.

drsaab

The thing is everyone keeps comparing the p85d and s550. But the p85d compares to a s63amg. In real world performance the s85 and s85d equal the s550 0 to 60 and beat it from 5mph rolling start and 30 to 60 etc etc. The s85 is $25k less so price wise it is more comparable too. The new autopilot features every few months really make it cool. Real time range monitor and then auto Steering to make it the most autonomous car available are coming in 1 and then 4 months. The s550 will lose equal range if floored every stoplight from 0 to 60. Takes more gas, so it loses range. Also in the 1/4 mile the tesla does even out vs gas cars but your at 100+ mph and in the real streets that is done like once in a blue moon. 0-80 is much more important in usa.

UrBusted

The P85D is much more comparable to the E63. The S63 was never meant for continuous acceleration. It was made for someone who wants the most luxurious car in its segment, as well as the ability to have some fun once in a while.

Landers

Problem I have with this comparison is then I can go the other route. I can get a E350 with a better interior than the P85D for way less money. To me I look at approximate price and go from there for comparisons. I can easily see a S driver possibly considering a P85D or S85. Another thing is most people are getting a S550 with a sticker price from $108K to $120K so pricewise P85D is close.

Also, If I put the Tesla on insane mode and drive in that mode what is my range? That is the true range. The true range on my S550 is 400 miles or so. It isn't what MB says with their EPA estimates. So if Tesla wants to tout their 0-60 time of 3.2 then what is the range on that mode. From my understanding it is under 200 miles.

drsaab

I do not understand the E350 part, so I can not comment on that. I can say we have 6 pages of info that 100% agree the S550 has the best interior at about any price and the Tesla does not. The Tesla does Drive and Perform better than the S550 and S63 in acceleration, smoothness, noise, Instant responsiveness, and handling. So for the DRIVER, it is way better and not for the passengers. I also Drive 35k a year and am never passenger so that makes a easy decision for some. Also the consensus from tesla drivers is that the extra "fluff" of luxury features, you do not miss when the car drives and reacts to your input so darn well. It brings the "fun" back to driving in a 7 passenger sedan.

As far as range The insane mode does not lose any range unless you floor it from 0-60 at every intersection. So that will take more KW and it will decrease range. What I was saying is that is similar to a S550. If you get your 0-60 in 4.9 sec by brake tourque and flooring it , it will not get 21mpg it will get like 11 mpg avg and your 20 gallon tank will get you 180 miles in a tank. The Tesla is no different. You will not get 253 miles, you will get like 150 probably.

However if you are in insane mode and drive like a normal route you will get the miles rated. In fact the "D" awd tesla models now put one motor to sleep on highway cruising so one could get way over the 253 mile rating when on the highway. So insane mode does not reduce range unless you drive it "insanely"

The real range anxiety only exists from non owners. The owners know they have a full tank every morning and for long distance travel there is a superb supercharger network unless you live in the boonies out in nowhere. And in 12 months the boonies out in nowhere will also be covered.

Price wise a Loaded s85 is about 100k with 20k in options and a 7500 federal tax rebate is net 92500

a S550 with similar options, prem 1 and Distronic is about 100k and msrp discount to 95k without much trouble.

Those are the 2 cars I cross shopped in that 95k net price range new.

It did not feel like a big deal when buying, but having your car improve features like your phone does with Over the air free updates is extremely awesome. Imagine if the S550 added new features for free that the newer models have. Hard to believe but it is quite cool that there is development in autonomous driving, range assurance, and even simple audio codecs updated and your car gets them just like the new ones.

Landers

Regarding the E350 as a comparison - In other words using the S63 for comparison IMO is a mistake. Using performance numbers as the deciding sole comparison is to me just as big a mistake as using the interior of a car as the sole deciding comparison. You wanted to use the S63 as a comparison because of performance numbers. I think that would be like someone using the E350 as a comparison to the P85D since the interior of the P85D is probably slightly worse than the E350. IMO you have to use price points so you can look at all cars as a complete package. What do I get for my $120K or so?

As I wrote above in the Tesla you get $150K-$200K in performance, $120K in looks, and a $50K interior

In the S550 you get $150-$200K in interior, $120K in looks, and $120K in performance.

Also you claim that the Tesla is better for the driver. That is myopic. Driving may have to do with performance, but interior is used by the driver all the time.

DO you know if most drivers ever leave their car in insane mode all of the time while driving? If they do wha is their actual range. My guess is it is less than 270 and more than 150. What is it? IMO that is the actual range of the car. I would never claim the S gets 25 miles to the gallon, nor does it get 10 miles to the gallon. IT gets somewhere in between. Actual driving for me I get around 400 miles with using the maximum allowable performance mode (of course there is only one mode in the S).

If I read your post correctly you are saying that if one puts it in insane mode all of the time and drives like they normally do they should get around 250 miles of range. If that is the case then that would be the range IMO.

I would love to actually see other people's numbers.

Range anxiety- I would only have range anxiety if I was traveling more than 200 miles in a day. This happens around 6 days per year for me (3 trips of over 200 miles). Honestly if I spend $100K or more I don't want to be inconvenienced. I do believe that if they can get battery swap stations that would absolutely fix the issue. Having to wait 30 minutes at a charger simply isn't acceptable at this point.

Finally, I believe the two cars you shopped made the most sense and for that $100K or so you know what I believe you got. Above par performance, below par interior and on par looks.

F85D, S85, S550 4matic, S550, S550 base model, S550 fully loaded all seem to be valid comparisons depending on how much you want to spend.

Wolfman

You definitely start sounding like a fanboy...

It's a better drivers car in your opinion. The S-class is a luxury car and as such, drivers (including me) have different criteria for what makes a drivers car. If I was choosing between the Tesla or maybe a Panamera's, that would be another question.
Also, you have to compare msrp to msrp and most s-classes in my region start at $110k. The Tesla is starting to get discounted and this will increase when sales targets aren't reached. Just like any other car manufacturer. This is a certainty.

Wolfman

The discussion of software updates Tesla are cool but still limited. Some things just need additional hardware as well.

I am a tech guy (years of software development and e-commerce) but I will not praise upcoming features before implementation. Seen too much vapors are. German car manufacturers have dealt with autonomous driving capabilities since before Tesla existed but it takes a long time to develop systems that keep people safe under all traffic conditions and different countries; something I wouldn't trust Tesla to do anytime soon.

Wolfman

I agree that the comparison with the S-class and Tesla is not valid. The e-class is a proper comparison because the cars compare in base price and let's say interior as well.

The price comparison is flawed IMO because I don't believe there is great levels of cross-shopping and I wouldn't compare a P85D to a G-class SUV just because the price is the same.

Also, lots of people are a lot of Tesla base model; nothing close to the s-class price-wise.

The Tesla is a great car; not for everyone but it doesn't diminish its capabilities by dropping these silly comparisons.

PeterUbers

Tesla 4 life!