Landers

It was an automatic assumption that the type of car would be the first criteria. i.e. sedan, coupe, SUV, two seater, etc.

IMO people that are shopping s class and/or tesla for the most part are looking for a sedan that ranges from $80K-$120K.

UrBusted

The E63 is in that price range. Under no circumstances, unless the S Class was a car built for speed, would I compare the Model S against the S Class.

C280 Sport

"Supercars"
is not all about 0-60 time... By this logic the Aerial Atom, Caparo T1 and the Nissan GTR must be supercars too right? None of them are supercars just like the Tesla Model S is not a supercar. It goes fast 0-60. That is where it all ends when compared to a supercar. If Tesla came out with a rare, extremely fast(0-60,Top Speed, well handling Track machine), Limited Production, not built for the masses, No expense spared, wild looks, not practical, very expensive, wild driving machine and one focused on the driver and not how much tech goodies we can cram into a IPad then they would have a supercar. Maybe the next Roadster will be their first attempt? I am a huge fan of the Tesla Roadster. Until then they have a large 4 door extremely fast Sedan that moves quick 0-60....


A supercar is everything a Tesla Model S is not...

drsaab

Better for driver in the way that it has more instant response of torque, smoothness, and more connected feel to the drivers inputs. The User interface is simple to use and slick. The mb takes many buttons to do same thing. I see this when I drive my E350 or X3. Very complicated for same features. The S is obviously super comfortable though.

Yes insane mode does NOT reduce range unless driven insanely. smooth driving gives same range in insane or sport mode. Range is reduced by
1. insane driving in any mode (same as gas)
2. cold weather (need to heat battery and cabin, no engine)
3. higher speeds than 70 mph (same as gas)
4. extreme AC use (less than gas, no engine to cool)

The inconvenience of range happens when you do not plan your stops around superchargers. The charger stops are needed every 2.5 - 3.5 hrs. If you take a bathroom break, snack, coffee, lunch or dinner at these stops then it is almost same stops as a gas car. You need a 30 min stop average and would be stopped in a gas car for 15-20 min anyways. It is FREE though so you can get a nice lunch in the $50 you save

Elon promises some crazy things like auto park in your garage, but they are driving from San fran to Seattle already in beta testers and on-ramp to off-ramp seems already possible with current hardware. The engineers said no hardware changes for a few years for autopilot. Will know more in a few months.

The avg E class sold is $50-$70k, The Avg Tesla is $100k. The range for Tesla is $70k + tech = $75k on the low side (since 97% choose tech) with top end at $130 k.

so price wise its closer to the S class with avg transaction about $100k. Its similar performance, width, slightly shorter so I think more s class cross shoppers vs E class which is $40k less on average.

Also CLS, Panamera etc etc obviously.

Landers

Thanks for the reply but here is is the reality (for me at least) which is the problem.

Range- I looked and the P85D range is around 250 real miles. The way I drive my guess is I end up at 200-210 miles. Heavy foot and 70mph is a joke on TX freeways. Also, usually trips are in the summer so it is hot meaning AC will be on the whole time.


The three trips I make are from Dallas to the JW Marriott in San antonio with the kids.

It is around 400 miles. I can get there in the S if I pushed it, but the reality is I stop for gas once. 15-20 minutes to fill up? Uh no it is about 5-6 minutes. 1 stop each way and I can pretty much choose where ever it is convenient. Pretty much the first time someone has to go to the restroom we stop, they go while I fill up, and we are on the road in about 6-8 minutes.

So I thought I would map this out if I had to use superchargers. Well there are 3 main areas: Waco, Austin, and San Marcos in that order. San Marcos is too far so it has to be Austin or Waco.

Can't do any of the Austin sites unless I want to add an additional 30 min due to traffic. We always take Highway 130 around Austin for two reasons: 1) 85mph speed limit which means you can really go 90-95mph and 2) There is literally one or two cars on that highway most of the time so we skip all the traffic. With the 30 minutes of supercharger time I have no interest in adding an hour to my trip, especially with 3 little ones.

SO that leaves Waco. Problem with Waco is that it is in a bakery lot. No lunch and the only place close to that within safe walking distance with three little ones is Dennys. The chance of me eating there is none. I'd pay you $50 to not have to eat there. Not to mention even if I did want to go into the bakery we usually leave on Sunday at 7AM (to go back home) or on a Monday at 7AM if it is a holiday (meaning bakery will be closed) to miss the traffic. The bakery isn't even open until 11AM on Sunday so we would have to sit in a parking lot.

IF I am going to spend $120K on a car I simply am not willing to accept these major inconveniences and the limited range for the way I actually drive.

Having said that I do realize each person's circumstances are different and I applaud Musk for always trying to improve. Maybe they will get better range (325 minimum for the way I drive) and add more superchargers in the future. If they do I may consider

ETA: We are going to Branson this summer with the kids and I wanted to map that trip out. Admittedly this is a one time trip we will probably never do again. 0 superchargers on the way which means I couldn't even take the car.

drsaab

Yep, not for you at this point.

I do think your kids would be a walking advertisement for this car. My kid is not into cars nor is her cousins/friends but they are like in awe of the iPad screen and that they can click around on there own and figure out the music etc on their own at 6 years old. They love the 3rd row rear facing jump seats too.

In the NE the chargers from dc to ny or south to NC etc are at normal rest stops and malls so plenty of options on food etc.

I wish we had a 95 mph road up here. Even Amtrak probably doesn't do that safely in the NE.

Wolfman

It would be nice if you state these things as your personal opinions instead of a matter of fact scenario. You assume S-class cross shoppers because of price. I don't. Just my opinion. And you are massaging the numbers by discounting the S-class and bumping up the S85 by $20k. Also, your responses feel like they are pasted out of the Tesla website. Again, I believe you are assuming all these things... Lots of people here saying that it's a great car but not for them. You can't counter that with marketing fluff. Oh, btw. I was actually quite disappointed about the auto pilot info from Tesla. It sounds like they will only enable this on highways & ramps, so all the difficult autonomous driving stuff is conveniently disabled.

drsaab

I'm Confused on what you think is not a fact. Sure in my opinion, they are cross shopped. The price of a tesla is on the website and fixed like Apple, with the most common setup being s85 and tech, pano, air suspension, Prem Sound, and leather as normal Options. This is a msrp of about $95k. And 5k more for awd. So 95 to 100. The 75k s60 is rare at about 10 percent of sales. The common dealer stocked s550 it is about $100k to $110k msrp. And a normal 5 to 7 percent discount plus dealer cash. So about $100k ish real world pricing. The E is $50 to $70 since again 10% off msrp Is easily obtainable. I'm not sure what numbers I am massaging?

They are even directly compared on youtube by car magazines etc as cross shopped.

I'm not sure what specifics you are saying are not facts. Yes its not for everyone, of course no car is perfect for everyone. No marketing fluff there. And what drives better or is better overall etc is an opinion of course. How can that be a fact.

UrBusted

People cross shopping between the S Class and Tesla, and wishing for performance from either car which they purchase, don't know what they are looking for. The S63/65 is decently fast, but its not a performance vehicle. That's the job of the E63S/CLS63S/SLS/AMG GT e.t.c. People who buy a S63/65 are looking for untouched luxury while having a decent amount of speed. I don't mind the on-the-go updates but I would feel very uncomfortable with the self driving update. The technology on the newest Tesla was made for this update, with more cameras or whatever is needed, while the current Tesla may not have a similar amount, or the technology used is of a different tier to the newer one. Even if they release an update for my current S Class with a full self driving update I'm not going to use this one, I'm going to go get myself the newer one as I have a sense of that security.

emilner

The Model S is directly competing with the S550/A8/750/XJ. They are similar in many ways. The S class is widely accepted as the class leader at this point which is why nearly every comparison posted to date puts the S against the S550. I have never seen them compare it to an E class, or a Honda for that matter.

Frankly, if they had an interior on par with the S class I would seriously consider droping my S550 for a Model S....

Wolfman

I agree that virtually every comparison posted is related to the S. But all of these comparisons are simply based on price, nothing else.

The comparisons always seem to pick just the fully loaded version of the Tesla. Never seen anyone comparing the $63k Tesla S60 to the S-Class because it wouldn't make sense.

IMO, the Tesla is unique because it spans such a significant price range; virtually doubling the price for the same physical car (starting at $63.5k and ending at $130k+).
If price comparisons are used for that range, the best choice would be the CLS. It would be a good price and feature match.

Wolfman

It simply look at pricing from a bare bone to a fully loaded model price range.

Tesla starts at $63.5k (I am deducting the $7.5k federal incentive off the price like Tesla does) and goes to, let's say $130k.
Mercedes S-Class starts at $94.5k and goes to $240k.

I am using MSRP to MSRP simply because this comparison has been going on for some time. When the W222 came out, you weren't able to pull big discounts.

I also believe that Tesla will start discounting their cars over time. They already offered me unpublished lease incentives on the P85D (previously unheard of).

It's a question of future sales performance and Tesla will have to deliver moving forward.

emilner

What you have is a situation where Tesla has left a bare base model available. Mercedes has base model short wheelbase V6 S class available for quite a bit less money than the S550 but they don't bring it to the states. The rightful comparison is the 85 which starts in the $80s. And you can't take off the federal rebate because that has nothing to do with the manufacturers price of the car.

And Tesla is not unique in the range of price. You can get an S class for $90's or $200k+.

I see there is no convincing you, but trust me- the rest of the world views the Model S as a competitor to the S class, not CLS or E class....

Wolfman

No need to convince me, it's my personal opinion that the comparisons are not the best fit for reasons stated.
Also, Tesla specifically pitches net pricing in all their materials/calculations, so why exclude that?

I am also not against Tesla if you read my posts. I love the tech but think the car looks boring and the interior is not a fit for us.

If MB builds a Tesla-based EV, I am in. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with specific statements

Landers

Its pretty simple as to why people use S as a comparison.

Large Sedan with 5 seats is first criteria.
Price is then second

XJ, 750, A8, S550, S85, P85D fit that criteria.

CLS does not, E does not, 5 series does not, A6 does not, XF does not.

Landers

Its pretty simple as to why people use S as a comparison.

Large Sedan with 5 seats is first criteria.
Price is then second

XJ, 750, A8, S550, S85, P85D fit that criteria.

CLS does not, E does not, 5 series does not, A6 does not, XF does not.

Wolfman is the firs person I have seen that wants to use a comparison of a midsize sedan or a 4 seat sedan for comparisons. Most people pick type of car they want first, price second, and go from there. When people state pricing is a criteria it is because it is a given that large sedan is the first criteria.

Well that is not the case for most other people. You can compare a motorcycle to the S if you want, but most people think of the Tesla as a large sedan, thus comparisons will almost always be with other large sedans.


I'm sorry but there is so much ridiculousness in this post. All the ones you listed as performance vehicles are not performance vehicles if you want to include the fastest motorcycles. Obviously that is silly, but no more silly than you saying the S63/S65 are not full of performance. Again people are going to pick the top 5-6 large sedans within a certain price point for criteria. It is exactly why the automats have done that for years.

Wolfman

Your logic escapes me.
Driving in the Tesla (which I have done several times) feels like an E-class to me size wise, especially in the rear seats. Huge amounts of storage but not a large sedan. The comparison feels valid.

I understand that several U.S. car mags are comparing the Teslas to the S-class. That doesn't make it the world... Just quickly scanned the big German mags and I couldn't find a single one comparing the two. Not saying they don't exist but certainly not jumping at me. Found a comparison to the Panamera and the M5, but not the S-Class.

Jason B

The only things these cars have in common is price. That's it.

Feel free to quote me.

K-A

Price and size.

The main reason why people here won't compare an S550 and Model S is because the S550 is more classic lux limo and the Model S more modern sport-EV-techgadget-whatever it is.

Price range= Same. Size= Similar (Model S is a massive car, but sacrifices size for styling while the S550 is functional size first. Again; more sporty and personal nature vs more backseat and "rider" friendly). Even straight line performance is similar up to the top rungs, with Tesla naturally taking a more prevalent role here while the S maintains the interior and luxury lead.

They are going for a similar demographic, but ones that desire entirely different things. Many will cross shop a Model S and S Class, but will seek and appreciate entirely different things from each.

And in EU you can get SWB smaller engines with cloth seats for probably a similar price to a 60kw Model S. So, realistically, they're literally priced alongside each other.

Landers

I'd be the first to tell you that I have never been in one so I will take your word for it. However, it isn't just me that does this comparison it is the majority of shoppers. They think of the Tesla as a large sedan. IF you are saying space wise it is not I simply have to believe you. I did consider a Tesla prior to an S and maybe had I gotten into one I might have said it is nowhere close to a large sedan so I do appreciate the response. I guess I would have to look at overall length, width, and wheelbase to get an idea of how much the cars differ in size.

Wolfman

Always interesting to see people assuming to know what the majority wants or thinks. Love to see some numbers

WEBSRFR

Yikes, I can't believe you all are now arguing about what the Model S compares to. IMHO it is nonsensical to compare a Model S to an E class. When we were looking to buy a new car, we were absolutely unimpressed with the E class in any of its variants, including the E63. We especially did not like all the mismatched angles and different styles of buttons on the dashboard/interior. We had zero interest in the E class and feel it has gone down-market than what it used to be.

The S class is what most people I know cross shop the Model S with. They are both about 5,000lbs seat 5 adults quite comfortably (5+2 in the Tesla) and in the case of the Model S, it is actually wider than an S class. For those I know who've compared the two, those who want the most luxurious interior as their number one priority opt for the S Class and those who value the most advanced in car technology that gets even better with software updates go for the Model S. The insane 700 lb. ft. or torque at 0 RPM seals the deal for those who value the driving characteristics of the car. The ability to tap that torque and 600+ hp in traffic gives me a margin of safety that I've never had before as I can get someplace in an emergency before anyone can react after their mechanical engine's spool up.

Also with pricing, very few Tesla customers go for the barebones S60, which would be comparable a V6 S class that you can't buy in the US. The average selling price for the average Tesla sale is now $107k (many are opting for the P85D models), up from $102k last year, and mid-90's in 2012.

So let's see both vehicles cost about the same (technically the average $107K Tesla price is higher than an S class), are about the same size (technically the S class is wider than an S class), carry about the same number of passengers (technically the Tesla can carry 5+2), but with all these shared attributes if someone is still convinced people cross shop the Model S with an E class I don't think anything will convince them otherwise...

If you still think the Model S is the same size as the E class, I had to have my garage renovated to fit the Model S when I had no problem parking my E class in there (the length was fine but the Model S is much wider than an E class). If someone has driven the Model S and felt it was as small as an E class, that's a compliment to the Tesla designers who have managed to make one of the largest and heaviest sedans you can buy behave like a small car.

Landers

Numbers? Look at this thread. Obviously many here considered or compare the S with a Tesla. I know a couple people who were considering a Tesla. All considered full size sedans, none the E or 5 series or similar sized cars.

Google other forums including the Tesla forums. Used S as a comparison and they decided on the Tesla.

Majority (based on searching) seem to agree with the comparison.

Finally right above this post. He simply stated it was "nonsensical" to use an E as a comparison for him.


Having said that though you are absolutely correct that it is closer to the E than the S based on actual specs

E - Length 192, wheelbase 113
Tesla - Length 196, wheelbase 116
S550 - Length 206, wheelbase 125

SO maybe in the end you are the correct one and I don't mean that sarcastically.

WEBSRFR

Yeah it is definitely inspiring and something to be proud of that the Model S is American designed and built. I am especially glad they did not offshore the production of it to Mexico or some other place but decided to build the car and even future battery packs right here in the US.

Yes, the Tesla app on the phone is amazing and I love the fact that I don't have to pay a monthly fee like I do with our Mercedes cars with the MBrace payment. My favorite part is I can turn the climate control system from wherever I am 10 minutes before I get to my car. Since I have an enclosed garage, I could never do that with a gasoline powered car due to carbon monoxide issues. When I get in my car it is just the right temperature and I'm all set to go.

I also absolutely hated the fact that someone at Mercedes decided that it will show the location of my Mercedes on my phone only if I am close to it. What heavy handed and moronic control of how I may or may not use a feature in my car?! It always irritated me that they had locked down the location capabilities of MBrace even when I pay for the serbvce. With the Tesla I can know the current location and speed of the car wherever I am. It's really useful if I feel like monitoring what is being done with the car when it is being valet parked.

As for the Valet Feature, no one knows exactly what will be in it because the software update is still a few days from being released but you can find what will be in this software update online:

http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit

It's incredibly cool how so many features are being added to the car. The car is pretty much all software so basically in 2016 my car will have just about every feature that a 2016 Model S will have due to the software updates. They are about to completely redesign the dashboard and UI design of the car and when that is done, everyone car will get that at no cost.

I still remember all the $$$ I paid every few years for Mercedes map updates with marginally better maps and the same clunky navigation interface that never got better. With the Tesla the map updates are free and the entire navigation system gets upgraded along with the software updates.

The Germans really need to reconsider the software and technology in their cars as I would not want to go back to a car whose software never improves. Since it's inception, the model S has been improved with software updated many dozens of times and it is an impressive list of additional features customers ended up getting. You can see the full list here:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showw...ware+changelog

As for your son, you can always consider getting him an S60 if performance is a concern and you can always find an "inventory/demonstrator" vehicle at a lower cost and they all come with a 8 year warranty. Valet mode is not ideal for your son as it locks out the front and back trunks in the car and also disables HomeLink so the valet guy can't just drive into the garage at your home...

drsaab

Going along with WEBSRFR's post , I also upgraded from an E class. This forum also helped in the decision of S550 vs Tesla. We all talk about what we do have in one car or the other, but also important is what we don't have. I know 80% of S class ppl are super happy but these problems do not exist in the Tesla which is refreshing. These factors of the dealer network and complex drive train also are bringing people to electric cars.

1. gouging for service, getting a CLA loaner
2. $250 navi upgrades
3. user interface issues to use the command system
4. rough tranny shifts, deciding to wait for 9 speed tranny or not.
5. rough idle
6. noisy car (these were from japan and china though)
7. slow internet speeds
8. Distronic not steering well (i have no ideas how tesla will do yet)
9. Ugly steering wheel
10. price negotiation issues
11. runflat tire issues
12. Eco start and stop
13. Winsheild de lamination
14. Another dealer not taking care of your needs since you bought the car elsewhere.

The S class is solid overall , the new C class. That has a real long list of issues it seems.

And yes i am sure the Tesla has 14 issues we do have to deal with , but thankfully complicated drive train issues are minimal.

It is always buttery smooth and silent, cold, or hot and with nice premium electric or cheap free electric