WEBSRFR

Wow. Just listen to yourself. You remind me of this guy...



Yes it would be interesting indeed when we and our children breathe in more polluted air and our major cities end up being like London with all the pollution. Before California decided to regulate emissions, they literally had acid raining down from the sky. I thought anything smarter than a doorknob would agree that breathing less carbon monoxide is better.


Even if someone's sole purpose in life revolves around extoling the virtues of polluting the air we all breathe, we are on the verge of an EV costing less to produce than a combusting car when the cost per kWh goes below $100. Perhaps this is why no less than the CEO of Mercedes, Dieter Zetsche, has admitted that the days of combusting cars that set fire to decomposed dinosaur sludge is numbered.

But feel free to disagree with Mercedes' own statements on the topic while you live in denial of the future

El Cid

First, I totally disagree with eliminating the proposed emissions, MPG and safety regulations. But it is happening now so what are the impacts on auto development and production?
Less incentive to produce alternative vehicles. EV's and hybrids were developed to lower emissions and dependence on fossil fuels. With those two incentives now going away, less reason to produce more EV's.

If Dieter Zetsche really believed what you think he believes, MB would not be manufacturing anything but EV's or hybrids. There would be no R&D on next three generations of multiple ICE vehicles and AMG would be closed.
MB continues to focus primarily on developing ICE vehicles with a smattering of EV's and hybrids for the future.
Actually I don't understand why you persist in hanging on to your outdated dinosaurs of An E550 and an ML350?????????

syswei

10 EVs on the way by 2022 (rather than 2025), $11B to be invested: Bloomberg article

IMO given the investment and accelerated timeline, it is implicit that further development of internal combustion engines will get less funding than might have been thought only 6 months ago, and eventually maybe no funding.

lolachampcar

El Cid,

A month after I took delivery of my first Model S (and yes, I've owned MB, BMW and Audi - they all have their pluses), I realized where things are going and started to wonder about how they would get there.

I put myself in the position of MB' CEO and wondered how I would pull it off. How do I convince the board to take a 40% hit in the stock price for five years while I completely re-align the company to BeV? Where do I get the cash to build the battery factory needed to produce sufficient batteries to supply the number of vehicles I planned on building when my stock price had tanked? What kind of cult of personality would I need to be to convince all involved?

The answers were simple; there is absolutely no way an existing mfg can pull this off. It will take one significant disruptor to lead the way and that will likely mark the demise of the current large OEMs. The progression will likely go something like this-

BeVs are proven viable.
BeVs continue down the economy of scale curve and become price competitive.
BeVs prove to be much less expensive than ICE over the full life cycle.
ICE mfgs move more to leasing to offset the customer's unwillingness to take risk on "old" technology.
Residual values finally collapse on ICE leaving the leaseholder holding the bag.

Objectivity is a lost art but, if you look at the situation without bias, some of the above is already happening even given the entrenched position defending you find from very intelligent people on forums like this.

So, to your point, Dieter does not stand a chance. Even if he could see the train coming for him, there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. He can not promote BeV at the expense of ICE even if he could afford to build BeV.

absent

Save your time, you can never win an argument with a fanatic......

syswei

Au contraire, I think MB sees very much the way things are headed and that's why they are going to pour 10B euro into EVs. They have resources that Tesla does not...Tesla is almost in hand-to-mouth or just-in-time mode when it comes to cash needs. IMO MB will have more EV models than Tesla come 2022. If you think that Tesla and other pure-EV companies are going to put MB and ALL the other old-line companies out of business, I think you will find yourself disappointed.

That being said, EVs will prove a disruptor and could contribute to SOME old line companies falling by the wayside. But IMO not MB, because I think that MB sees the future better than some of its competitors. For instance, their new EV timeline, and the fact that the 2020 MB EV (I'm hoping it comes sooner) will be on a dedicated EV platform, whereas from what I understand, the 2018 Audi EV is on more of an adapted platform.

P.S. if you haven't, you should read the article referenced in post 878.

lolachampcar

syswei,

We get a front row seat to see who is right

Either way, we get more BeVs which is fine for me and, even better, fine for my grand kids. I just hope they let me keep the McLaren when all the autopilot BeVs take over the roads.

syswei

I could definitely see some future (probably Democratic) administration proposing that manual driving be outlawed, for safety reasons. But decades from now, so I'll be too old to enjoy driving anyway.

syswei

Less incentive in the US, but the US isn't the only market that matters. In Europe, there are regulatory reasons for EVs to be increasingly adopted, AND a consumer backlash against diesel in the wake of the emissions scandals. Then there's China, where a major company just invested in Tesla. Those are some of the reasons that MB has accelerated its EV timetable by 3 years...just 6 months after announcing their previous timetable.

Sailem

Rumor that Tesla has been cheapening content of their autos in order to increase profit margins. Friend took delivery of a Tesla 100S a few days ago. It has "standard" audio, which overpowers the speakers at moderate levels. Speakers are definitely "cheap." OEM 18" standard tires have changed from Michelin low rolling resistance to Goodyear Eagle.

syswei

AMG to introduce 4 electric-only vehicles for 2020-2022...

Automobile Magazine article

Just more evidence that those on this thread who are of the "ICE forever" mentality might need to do a rethink.

C280 Sport

The ICE and the electric motor both have been around forever and neither are going to go away anytime soon. All it means is more options for customers. Sorry to ruin your evening...

syswei

I never suggested the ICE would "go away anytime soon".

Question for you though: when MB says it is going to pour 10B euro into EVs, do you think that comes only out of what would otherwise have been profit? Or do you think maybe MB will spend less than previously planned on further ICE development?

krd2023

Okay, but please don't fail to recognize trends of EVs far outpacing ICEs by most positive indications. Tesla's stock reached an all time high this week. Forbes just proclaimed the Tesla Model S P110D with the newest Ludicrous+ software to be the "quickest accelerating production car in the world" reaching 0-60mph in 2.28 seconds.
I'm not seeing nearly the hype about Mercedes and ICEs in headlines or consumer reviews.

Again, I'll never again drive a Mercedes because of my dismal experience with MBUSA while I owned my first and only Mercedes, a 2010 ML350 Bluetec (as detailed in a thread I started here: https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...ne-seized.html ).
When pleading for assistance and accountability, I received from the MBUSA corporate office and legal counsel, under the leadership of then CEO Steve Cannon (who's now ironically out of the auto industry altogether), a cease-and-desist letter demanding I not contact MBUSA again. So I won't, and I've moved on from MBUSA in this lifetime. Tesla, on the other hand, is quick to respond positively to feedback from their drivers and from what I read, genuinely strives to build a reliable and lifelong brand among its customer base- hence the "cult" following you read about from Tesla naysayers in this thread. I look forward to someday soon driving an EV, whether or not it's a Tesla.

C280 Sport

In my opinion and educated guess as stated before in this thread would be that MB will cut down on gas and go more to Hybrid, EV and even Diesel/Hydrogen/Nat Gas possibly. They might not spend as much on engines but they will be produced of course for AMG lineup/600/Maybach line. We may see the future line be something like this:Example: E Class with Hybrid EV, EV I4, V8. So you get say a E Class Electric Drive, E300 Hybrid/E300, E63 AMG. MB customers and other higher end car buyers wants options. It is nice to be able to choose from a variety of powertrains just because you can. Having MB's since 1980 they are a company that really does not get rid of old but tends to keep it and add to their line up so I see the investing of 10B Euro into plug in EV's a good investment spending less then planned on just ICE development because now there are more options other then ICE and even EV. Basically they are splitting up the pie.

C280 Sport

1.) No one really cares about 0-60 times. Everyone makes a fast and quick car now a days.

2.) Tesla stock at a all time high. Very good if you have stock in the company. I personally do not buy automotive stocks. (FB, VZ, T, CPK, Apple, P&G, MCD) for me. I do have MBLY however. They make the sensors used in the self driving cars.

3.) You have stated over and over about your first and only MB being a lemon and how you would never ever buy another one again yet you continue to post on the forum.

4.) If you honestly think people do not have problems with their Tesla's you are fooling yourself. All cars have issues. There are ownership experience stories on the internet of Tesla owners who had poor experiences just like you had with your MB.

syswei

I basically agree with you here, except that I think hydrogen especially, and probably natural gas, do not have much of a future in passenger vehicles, except maybe buses.

WEBSRFR

Absolutely. Anyone peddling hydrogen for transportation is either:

1. Completely clueless/unable to do simple math.
2. Someone who is trying to delay the inevitable switch to EVs because they have invested too much money on factories and technologies for building cars that set fire to decomposed dinosaur sludge. Toyota falls in this category. They keep dicking around with Hydrogen to delay the inevitable but they risk becoming a Nokia.

Mercedes obviously understands this and that is why they are not wasting any more money on future designs to build hydrogen cars.

Anyone still unsure about hydrogen just needs to understand the diagram below to realize how dumb it is as an energy source for cars.



Source: https://electrek.co/2016/04/26/autom...tric-vehicles/

And then there is this explanation.

C280 Sport

I was just using them as a example. I personally do not see much in the future with them except for buses as well or maybe some sort heavy equipment?

syswei

link to article

davidjohnbamber

This post is proof positive to me that many of the poster's replies pro, and con are afflicted with ED. No, not the ED (electile dysfunction) on many other threads. Here it's electron dysfunction.

syswei

This article has details I haven't seen before.

krd2023

Actually, you're incorrect on almost all accounts of your #1 claim regarding speed. I'm not even a speed freak, but I most certainly care about a 0-60 rating on a car I'm spending $50K or more on, especially in the luxury line. I was sold on a Telsa the first time I test-drove one in Ludicrous mode and stomped on the go pedal and felt the G-forces. You should try one too.

Regarding your #2 claims on stocks, I won't be asking you for stock-pick recommendations. Your MBLY (Mobileye) stock tanked when Tesla severed ties with it in 2016 (even though it's up today) amidst Tesla accidents in autopilot mode using Mobileye. Tesla's continued explosive stock climb this week is reflective of its innovative technologies and growth forecasts, investment bank recommendations, and in growing believers like me. Here's today's news update on Tesla regarding its stock value and dominant market cap: http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/10/inve...cap/index.html

Regarding your #3 claim, in fact my car turned out NOT to be a lemon, but instead an example of a rising number of oil sludge issues inherent with the OM642 model Bluetec engines of the 2010+ era. Perhaps you should go back and read recent posts in the thread I started, again as referenced here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...tml?styleid=19

I'll continue to monitor and occasionally post in this forum until you can show me where the forum's User Policy states I must be a current MB driver to do so. I've helped dozens of forum readers who are dealing with similar MB issues as mine, so until a class action suit arises against MB on the matter, I'll continue to participate here and assist where I may.

Regarding your #4 claim, nowhere did I say any car brand is perfect. Instead, I've cited how MBUSA dealt with me when I was a MB customer which led me to proclaim I'll never again drive a Mercedes. There are too many other great brands to choose from, and many who do treat me like a life-long customer.

C280 Sport

-I have driven a couple Teslas... Where do you think I have come up with my conclusion about the car(S,X,Roadster) and the reasons why I personally do not like it except the Roadster.

-MBLY is a solid stock. I bought it in January/February of 2016 for a little over $30. Funny how you only looked at MBLY out of the rest of stocks listed. For what it is worth I have been over 15% per year in the IRA since 2010 so I think I know a thing or two here

-Sorry about your ML. That really is too bad because it can ruin any car experience. Lemon or not it still is a awful thing to have to deal it. Especially if you actually enjoy the car. I cannot say anything major has happened with a MB product in my ownership. No one ever said you could not be here because you do not own a MB. My only question was simple. Why hang around on the forum and trash the entire brand? I do not do that on other forums but I see you have helped people with the same issue that you had with your ML so that is nice of you I will say that.

-No doubt there are other great brands. I am a Porsche/Ferrari guy as well. However, I drive what I enjoy and I would also keep in mind if this happens again to you with another brand and I hope it does not that you would not trash the entire brand because I have herd and read stories of many other luxury car companies and non luxury car companies doing very similar things BMW, Tesla, Audi, MB, Ect....

sakimano

funny thread. Lots of crazy on both sides (for/against Tesla)

I have been a German car guy for 15 years. I've owned Mercedes and Audis, never a BM. I started thinking the Tesla thing was interesting last year and was following them closely.

Here's the thing...they're not as good as an S class. But neither is a Mercedes CLS. Comparing anything to an S class is stupid. They're the best cars in the world. The Tesla is sized/styled/shaped more like a CLS/Panamera/6series GC/A7,S7,RS7, so those are more apt comparisons.

I recently bought an AWD Tesla Model S because I think they're interesting. I think in 10 years we'll all have at least 1 electric car in our garages. Here are my thoughts about it.

The car is a good car...not the greatest car ever, but it's very good. It handles very well. Steering feels great and connected. Acceleration is fantastic at all speeds (the poster above who complained they 'fall off' after 100 mph...they still acclerate hard, and maybe fall off vs. their epic accleration below 100...and even then who cares how well your 5000 lb luxury car accelerates above 100 mph...are you in a street racing gang for families of 5?)

The interior is improving as the years roll by. early ones were weaker, modern ones are much better with nappa leather, alcantara, better designed seats etc. The technology in the car is fantastic and competes favourably with just about anything out there.

Never going to a gas station is great. Travelling 50 miles a day is no big deal and means by wednesday night I should remember to plug in ( but if I forget, I'm fine)...and I then get 30 miles of charge for each hr plugged in at home for a cost of about $5 per 200 miles driven. My V8 Audi costs me about $40 for the same range and the gas station isn't in my garage.

Some will say 'but if you drive 600 miles in a day superchargers blah blah blah' . Who the hell is driving 600 miles in a day? If you do...maybe you do it once a year? If you don't, great, don't buy a Tesla. The other 99.9% of the population, keep reading. Even if you do drive 600 miles, as long as there are superchargers, stop at one every 2 hrs for 20 minutes and blast in about 120 miles of range and you're good to go. On a full charge you'll get between 200 miles (in cold cold temps going 80 mph) to 275 miles (in nice weather going 70 miles an hr) to 350 miles (in nice weather going 55 mph) from a Model S. That's plenty to reach superchargers unless you live in the middle of nowhere, or east coast proivinces in canada. If you do, again, don't buy one yet.

Depreciation is something not talked about here. These cars just don't (and won't) depreciate at the same rate as a CLS or Panamera or Audi 7. They don't have the engine and transmission to wear out, and they have an 8 year warranty on the battery and drive even if they have a problem. They also get software updated which helps keep 4 year old cars more relevant. The numbers bear this out. average depreciation in 4-5 years on these cars is about 45% while it's about 60% for the competition. So while they're 'expensive' relative to the competition they also don't burn your dollars away in depreciation as quickly. If your $100,000 car depreciates 15% less in 4 years that's pretty signficant. Makes paying an extra $10,000 not such a big deal doesn't it.

Where the company sucks is at being a company. it's frigging tiny. Their finance department could fit in a Model S. The service centres are WAY too far apart and the infrastructure for sales/service really needs to improve. one neat thing is, I had a problem with my car with a couple of warnings popping up. I called Tesla service and they said 'we will diagnose the car, and call you back'. An hr later I had an email explaining what was wrong (the car has it's own LTE connection and they can connect and see what's wrong)...turns out it was a minor item I could ignore (a grounding stud needed replaced...10 minute repair) and they booked an appointment to have it fixed next time I was near the service centre.

So it's not all roses as the Teslamaniacs will tell you , nor is it anywhere near as bad as those terrified of electric cars will. I think it's the future for a good portion of our vehicles that's for sure, so it's exciting to see how good it will be when Audi launches an electric Q7 in 2018 and Mercedes puts out an electric E-class. All the big guys are waiting for is a worldwide, public, charging infrastructure for their clients. We're getting there.