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Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
BMW really had no choice as they were losing customers to Tesla. BMW originally wanted to drag their feet on the electric transition until the 2020s and then Tesla received deposits for 400,000+ Model 3 cars that were not even available to buy and then this happened to BMW car sales. Look at the blood bath, even before the Tesla Model 3 is available for purchase.
2 Series Sales down 26%
3 Series sales down by 39%
5 series sales down by 12%
7 Series sales down by 48%
And Tesla is now a more valuable car company than BW with a higher market cap. So yeah sure. BMW is now releasing a 3 series electric version because it is either they compete with Tesla in EVs or join Nokia.
I would expect you to know that sales usually go down after a facelift of the car; for example the new 7 series came out last year, everyone who wanted one bought one so now sales will keep declining until the next facelift, and I'm quite sure this has been explained at least ten times in this thread. Let me just copy what you're saying to show how it seems to us. Oh, look at the model 3 reservations. They've gone down by 7% and now look at how the E Class sales figures which rose from 88k to 100k last year. Following your inferences, this shows how the E Class is clearly taking market share from the Model 3.
OMG.
BMW 7 series sales are down 48% because of the Tesla Model 3...
Another idiotic post from Websfr that tries to connect unrelated data in order to make a pitch for Tesla.
That said I wish Tesla well with the Model 3
It's either an "idiotic" post or rather you have a hard time grasping what is happening. What I said is that Tesla is decimating BMW car sales and BMW are now scrambling to match Tesla after dragging their feet on EVs only to find out that Tesla is now worth more as a company than BMW based on market cap.
The 3 series and 2 series sales falling off a cliff for BMW is certainly attributable to the Tesla Model 3 and the 400,000+ deposits customers have put down. These are the same customers who would otherwise buy a 3-series, C class, or A4.
As for the 7-Series sales also falling off a cliff, that's because of another Tesla model you might have heard of called the Tesla Model S which now outsells the Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series sales combined in the US.
Volvo just announced all their cars will have electric motors starting 2019. 47% of all cars sold now in Norway are electric. Watch for the Germans now all scrambling to accelerate their EV plans after thinking earlier they can drag their feet until the mid 2020s. They realize now they will not have much of a business if they wait until the mid 2020s to electrify their fleets.
An American company is once again reinventing an entire industry. Fun times to comes with the release of the Model 3 on July 28th and production of serial number 1 rolling off of the assembly line on Friday.
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
It's either an "idiotic" post or rather you have a hard time grasping what is happening. What I said is that Tesla is decimating BMW car sales and BMW are now scrambling to match Tesla after dragging their feet on EVs only to find out that Tesla is now worth more as a company than BMW based on market cap.
The 3 series and 2 series sales falling off a cliff for BMW is certainly attributable to the Tesla Model 3 and the 400,000+ deposits customers have put down. These are the same customers who would otherwise buy a 3-series, C class, or A4.
As for the 7-Series sales also falling off a cliff, that's because of another Tesla model you might have heard of called the Tesla Model S which now outsells the Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series sales combined in the US.
Volvo just announced all their cars will have electric motors starting 2019. 47% of all cars sold now in Norway are electric. Watch for the Germans now all scrambling to accelerate their EV plans after thinking earlier they can drag their feet until the mid 2020s. They realize now they will not have much of a business if they wait until the mid 2020s to electrify their fleets.
An American company is once again reinventing an entire industry. Fun times to comes with the release of the Model 3 on July 28th and production of serial number 1 rolling off of the assembly line on Friday.
Your argument is "idiotic". The only reason the Model S is being compared to these cars is due to the EPA claiming it a large vehicle. What luxury features does the Model S have to compare to the cars you're claiming it compares to? Why don't we compare the Model S sales figures to other EPA-claimed large vehicles, such as the 2017 Honda Civic 5 Door while we're at it.
It's either an "idiotic" post or rather you have a hard time grasping what is happening. What I said is that Tesla is decimating BMW car sales and BMW are now scrambling to match Tesla after dragging their feet on EVs only to find out that Tesla is now worth more as a company than BMW based on market cap.
Your info and assumptions are easy to grasp; it's just an "idiotic" post. I make these comments rarely but the issue with your posts is the use of unrelated data to support your ridiculous claims.
I am pro-EV and pro Tesla. Their cars don't do anything for me but I wish the company great success.
As for the market cap, it is based on investor faith since the company isn't making any profit. If Goldman Sachs predictions hold true that their stock will half within the next six months, that will obviously affect the valuation just a little bit...
I hope their Model 3's will be solid as the average US car buyer will be less forgiving with any quality/reliability issues than the more dedicated buyers of the Model S/X's...
Your info and assumptions are easy to grasp; it's just an "idiotic" post. I make these comments rarely but the issue with your posts is the use of unrelated data to support your ridiculous claims.
I am pro-EV and pro Tesla. Their cars don't do anything for me but I wish the company great success.
As for the market cap, it is based on investor faith since the company isn't making any profit. If Goldman Sachs predictions hold true that their stock will half within the next six months, that will obviously affect the valuation just a little bit...
I hope their Model 3's will be solid as the average US car buyer will be less forgiving with any quality/reliability issues than the more dedicated buyers of the Model S/X's...
Unrelated data to support ridiculous claims?
Like the claim you just made about the Goldman Sachs "prediction?" I assume you are talking about the new note to clients issued today by Goldman Sachs analyst David Tamberrino?
Tamberrino is one of lowest rated analysts on Wall Street – ranked #4,407 out of 4,592 Analysts on TipRanks with a success rate of 41% and an average return of -23%.
But yeah fine. Quote him and make an assertion but with a return of what appears to be negative 23%, you are better off doing the opposite of what he suggests.
It is a fact that Tesla Model S sedan sales keep going up while, pretty much across the board, the competition unit sales for sedans are going down. We can agree to disagree on if Tesla sales are the reason that the German sedan sales keep going down.
All I can tell you is expect more announcements by BMW, Audi, and Mercedes announcing the advancement of their plans to completely electrify their fleets. The Germans thought they can drag their feet on this until the mid 2020s but they realize now what a bad idea it is as they continue to lose customers to Tesla.
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 07-05-2017 at 02:35 PM.
Reason: Fix typo.
Like the claim you just made about the Goldman Sachs "prediction?" I assume you are talking about the new note to clients issued today by Goldman Sachs analyst David Tamberrino?
Tamberrino is one of lowest rated analysts on Wall Street – ranked #4,407 out of 4,592 Analysts on TipRanks with a success rate of 41% and an average return of -23%.
But yeah fine. Quote him and make an assertion but with a return of what appears to be negative 23%, you are better off doing the opposite of what he suggests.
It is a fact that Tesla Model S sedan sales keep going up while, pretty much across the board, the competition unit sales for sedans are going down. We can agree to disagree on if Tesla sales are the reason that the German sedan sales keep going down.
All I can tell you is expect more announcements by BMW, Audi, and Mercedes announcing the advancement of their plans to completely electrify their fleets. The Germans thought they can drag their feet on this until the mid 2020s but they realize now what a bad idea it is as they continue to lose customers to Tesla.
I didn't think there was a "claim" in my post Just what was reported on Tesla in the last few hours, amongst a few other things.
But as usual, for all the words you can't get the message. Your conclusions are the issue.
"Tesla quickly responded. In a statement to Business Insider, a Tesla representative seemed to downplay the value of the IIHS crash tests, saying that the “most objective and accurate independent testing of vehicle safety is currently done by the U.S. government.”
Bull *** Sht. Everybody knows that the US full frontal collision test is the low bar.
The S is a nice looking car on the outside and I'm all about lowering emissions so I like EV's and don't expect them to be a prime time player like Mercedes. I mean all you have to do is look at the tablet that they slapped into the console to see that. But when they start making excuses for coming up short on safety rather than acknowledging they need to catch up with big boys then I'm done with them. This and their space alien looking Model 3.
Geez I thought we already established that from a luxury standpoint, Tesla doesn't come close on interior noise, seat comfort or ride comfort in comparison to the S class. We also established that while these vehicles may be in the same price point(depending on the options), they are really not that similar. I also happen to know(my wife works in the insurance industry) that getting Tesla parts if you have an accident can be an incredibly painful and long process(lots of articles out there, google it).
The Tesla will evolve and get better and it certainly will compete with the S class at some point in time, but anybody who has sat in both will tell you that one is very fast,efficient and has a great infotainment system while the other is very comfortable, and comfort is what most S class owners are looking for. Plus, when you spend 140k on a car, you really don't give a $#$@@# about gas prices right?
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by alphainfinity
Geez I thought we already established that from a luxury standpoint, Tesla doesn't come close on interior noise, seat comfort or ride comfort in comparison to the S class. We also established that while these vehicles may be in the same price point(depending on the options), they are really not that similar. I also happen to know(my wife works in the insurance industry) that getting Tesla parts if you have an accident can be an incredibly painful and long process(lots of articles out there, google it).
The Tesla will evolve and get better and it certainly will compete with the S class at some point in time, but anybody who has sat in both will tell you that one is very fast,efficient and has a great infotainment system while the other is very comfortable, and comfort is what most S class owners are looking for. Plus, when you spend 140k on a car, you really don't give a $#$@@# about gas prices right?
I look forward to buying an EV S-Class, or something like an S-Class, someday. But I think it is going to be a good 5 years before they get around to it. I think the first MB EV is going be be closer to a GLC than GLE in size, for instance.
Geez I thought we already established that from a luxury standpoint, Tesla doesn't come close on interior noise, seat comfort or ride comfort in comparison to the S class. We also established that while these vehicles may be in the same price point(depending on the options), they are really not that similar. I also happen to know(my wife works in the insurance industry) that getting Tesla parts if you have an accident can be an incredibly painful and long process(lots of articles out there, google it).
The Tesla will evolve and get better and it certainly will compete with the S class at some point in time, but anybody who has sat in both will tell you that one is very fast,efficient and has a great infotainment system while the other is very comfortable, and comfort is what most S class owners are looking for. Plus, when you spend 140k on a car, you really don't give a $#$@@# about gas prices right?
Yet Mercedes S Class customers Keep buying Tesla Model S vehicles rather than an S Class. We certainly bought our Model S over an S Class and a whole bunch of S Class customers have chimed in on this thread to report that they too bought a Tesla Model S over an S Class.
Yes, the Model S does not blow scented air up my derriere but I enjoy driving our Tesla more than anything available for sale by Mercedes at any price, including their entire AMG lineup.
Also the technology in our Model S makes the S Class COMMAND seem like something from a clunky stone age. While the Mercedes cars in our household languish and get worse with time, our Tesla keeps getting better just about every month with software updates and new features.
The Tesla Model 3 will be released today and it will be the beginning of the end of the premium car segment still powered by setting fire to tiny drops of dinosaur excrement.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
From MotorTrend's Tesla Model 3 first drive review:
"The Tesla Model 3 is here, and it is the most important vehicle of the century....
If anybody was expecting a typical boring electric sedan here, nope. The ride is Alfa Giulia (maybe even Quadrifoglio)–firm, and quickly, I’m carving Stunt Road like a Sochi Olympics giant slalomer, micrometering my swipes at the apexes....The Model 3 is so unexpected scalpel-like, I’m sputtering for adjectives. The steering ratio is quick, the effort is light (for me), but there’s enough light tremble against your fingers to hear the cornering negotiations between Stunt Road and these 235/40R19 tires (Continental ProContact RX m+s’s). And to mention body roll is to have already said too much about it....Magic, I’m telling you. Magic. And this is the single-motor, rear-wheel-drive starting point. The already boggled mind boggles further at the mention of Dual Motor and Ludicrous....
Have I ever driven a more startling small sedan? I haven’t. At speed, it gains a laser-alertness I haven’t encountered before. By happenstance, associate road test editor Erick Ayapana had penciled me into a 2.0-liter Alfa Romeo Giulia to get here, and it feels like a wet sponge by comparison."
Trump = Fake POTUS and puppet of Putin
Trump doing his best to "Make Russia Great Again"
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Dude, this is an automotive blog, no place here for provocative political statements that are aggravating to (at minimum) 50% of the members.
Most likely, 75-90% based on demographics of folks who buy MB cars.
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
Yet Mercedes S Class customers Keep buying Tesla Model S vehicles rather than an S Class. We certainly bought our Model S over an S Class and a whole bunch of S Class customers have chimed in on this thread to report that they too bought a Tesla Model S over an S Class.
Yes, the Model S does not blow scented air up my derriere but I enjoy driving our Tesla more than anything available for sale by Mercedes at any price, including their entire AMG lineup.
Also the technology in our Model S makes the S Class COMMAND seem like something from a clunky stone age. While the Mercedes cars in our household languish and get worse with time, our Tesla keeps getting better just about every month with software updates and new features.
The Tesla Model 3 will be released today and it will be the beginning of the end of the premium car segment still powered by setting fire to tiny drops of dinosaur excrement.
Well, guess what, most of us bought S Class' over Model S'.
The argument about command not updating is now invalid since updates to the new Mercedes' can be done online.
Without Mercedes technology and production knowledge , Tesla would never have been what is now. No one wanted to invest in electric cars back in 2004.
Now, everyone knows that Tesla is not yet making money selling cars and who knows the industry knows that Germans, Us, Japan manufacturers are not making to much profit on selling cars but most from parts and service.
Tesla does'n need to much service so unless they have a plan on making money base on subscription on line and Ad service will be a challenge survive.
Also, as son as BMW, Audi, MB gets their EV out I don't see much future for Tesla.
I have to agree that Germans waited a little bit to much to get in EV market. They played the game of wait and see what happens.
How the future looks like: Well no so good for electric. Why? Few scenarios:
If 25% of cars are electric the Electrical System in US is not even close to keep up with the demand. You will have black outs every hour.
EV vehicle consumes 34 kWh to travel 100, so if you charge your car every day you have 1000 kWh/ month at today cost about $80/month
In 2015, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was , an average of 901 kWh per month.
If the demand for electricity goes up then $/kWh goes up.
If the demand for gas goes down then $/gallon goes down.
See the point?
If my logic is incorrect i will like to see different calculations.
Dude, this is an automotive blog, no place here for provocative political statements that are aggravating to (at minimum) 50% of the members.
Most likely, 75-90% based on demographics of folks who buy MB cars.
Ummm, your comment IS a political statement! If you have a problem with another forum member, you may want to take it up with a moderator and leave YOUR political comments out of it.
Dude, this is an automotive blog, no place here for provocative political statements that are aggravating to (at minimum) 50% of the members.
Most likely, 75-90% based on demographics of folks who buy MB cars.
While I agree with your sentiment that politics should be kept out of a car forum, I disagree with your assessment that 75-90% of people who buy a MB lack a functioning brain. Just about every conservative person I know is disgusted and appalled with what they are seeing.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
Well, guess what, most of us bought S Class' over Model S'.
"Most of us" is certainly a relative term, isn't it?
The Tesla Model S now outsells the Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series sales COMBINED in the US.
So it seems "most of us" decided to buy a car powered by modern propulsion based on an electromagnetic field that delivers 100% maximum torque at 0 RPM rather than a vehicle setting fire to tiny drops of decomposed waste.
With the entire Mercedes fleet going electric, but taking 5-10 years to get there, if you want to experience what it would be like to drive an S Class 5 years from now, drive a Tesla available today.
"Most of us" is certainly a relative term, isn't it?
The Tesla Model S now outsells the Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series sales COMBINED in the US.
So it seems "most of us" decided to buy a car powered by modern propulsion based on an electromagnetic field that delivers 100% maximum torque at 0 RPM rather than a vehicle setting fire to tiny drops of decomposed waste.
With the entire Mercedes fleet going electric, but taking 5-10 years to get there, if you want to experience what it would be like to drive an S Class 5 years from now, drive a Tesla available today.
You mean an "S class" with a noisy interior, inferior interior quality, inferior seat comfort, inferior ride,limited range....
I rented an S in Vegas, so this is based on a few days of driving...
I will happily wait for 5 years for Mercedes to convert to EV or a hybrid before giving up those things I value most about the S-class. I will also wait 5 years for Telsa to fix the issues I pointed out and revisit them in 5 years when it is time to replace my S-class. I am not a fanboy for either product, just an educated consumer who demands to most for his money and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort and ride quality just to be the cool guy on the block who can plug his car in at night...
Last edited by alphainfinity; 07-31-2017 at 03:02 PM.
You mean an "S class" with a noisy interior, inferior interior quality, inferior seat comfort, inferior ride,limited range....
I rented an S in Vegas, so this is based on a few days of driving...
I will happily wait for 5 years for Mercedes to convert to EV or a hybrid before giving up those things I value most about the S-class. I will also wait 5 years for Telsa to fix the issues I pointed out and revisit them in 5 years when it is time to replace my S-class. I am not a fanboy for either product, just an educated consumer who demands to most for his money and I am not willing to sacrifice comfort and ride quality just to be the cool guy on the block who can plug his car in at night...
That's a fair point for sure as neither car is perfect. One excels in the driving experience and technology and the other excels in comfort and opulence. Hopefully before long a vehicle will be available that offers both attributes in one package.
I think the Porsche Mission E is a step in that direction and so is the Lucid Air. Together with Tesla they represent the future of the premium automobile.
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
"Most of us" is certainly a relative term, isn't it?
The Tesla Model S now outsells the Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series sales COMBINED in the US.
So it seems "most of us" decided to buy a car powered by modern propulsion based on an electromagnetic field that delivers 100% maximum torque at 0 RPM rather than a vehicle setting fire to tiny drops of decomposed waste.
With the entire Mercedes fleet going electric, but taking 5-10 years to get there, if you want to experience what it would be like to drive an S Class 5 years from now, drive a Tesla available today.
I could've meant most of us as in the entire world too where more S Class' are being sold a year than Tesla can build cars in a year(until their new factory is built of course but still sales dependent), so "most of us" really are buying more S Class' than Model S', but of course we both know that I meant on this forum.
"Audi (NSUG.DE) aims to cut costs by 10 billion euros ($12 billion) by 2022 to help fund a shift to electric cars as it seeks to move on after the emissions scandal, sources close to the carmaker said....
The bulk of the 10 billion cost savings would come from cutting research and development costs..."
Surprise, surprise, one might think ICE R&D takes a hit. Makes sense to start tapering down ICE R&D given that the UK and France are both banning new sales of gas and diesel vehicles starting in 2040. India has a 2030 "target" (though it isn't for now a requirement).
So the other day I read some interesting news about a city with a metro area population about 5.5 million that is about to outright ban all diesel cars due to pollution and adverse effects to the health of its citizens.
What city do you think that is?
Try, Stuttgart Germany. The home of Mercedes and Porsche. Diesel will be the first to die and gasoline combusting cars will be next.
Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are winding down combusting R&D and redirecting tens of billions in funds to developing EVs before Tesla creates an insurmountable lead in the EV segment.
Also Porsche just joined Formula E, the all-electric racing series and so did Mercedes-Benz. Both Porsche and Mercedes joined Formula E by leaving the World Endurance Championship combusting car race. Audi already took this step last year.
Basically within 10 years the majority of Mercedes vehicles will be electric and will drive like a Tesla.
07-04-2017, 02:36 PM
Just what was reported on Tesla in the last few hours, amongst a few other things.
