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What? There are basically zero orders. I put my name and a deposit in for a S Class Convertible, that doesn't mean I've ordered it. Why are you assuming we'd be it if it had Benz parts, the Model S has Mercedes parts but we still don't want one. The only compelling part of a Model S is the electric motor to us S Class' owners, but then there are some such as myself who prefer a 5.5 V8 over an electric 85D. Maybe my views will change in the future, but until Tesla has a car with an interior on par with the S Class we'll get one.
Regarding the Model 3, if I place a deposit for one now, they expect I'd get it in 2020, or 2021 by which time there would probably be an electric Mercedes.
There are nearly 400,000 (372,000-something if you want to be more accurate) reservations with deposits for the Model 3. To put that number in perspective on the chart below you will see the state of the US entry-level premium car market that the Model 3 will compete in where the BMW 3 Series and the Mercedes C Class COMBINED only accounts for about 226,000 orders. When the Model 3 ships next year and they ramp up production it will become the best selling entry level premium car, just like the Model S is now the best selling 4 door sedan in the $100K segment in the US and Western Europe
Many of these people waited in line at a Tesla showroom to place that deposit and they are serious about buying a Model 3. If they wanted any other car they could have gone to a Mercedes, BMW, or Audi dealer and bought a car right away and they didn't.
What is interesting to note is that ALREADY there is evidence of a slowdown in sales for competing entry level premium German cars in anticipation of the Tesla Model 3. Basically rather than buying an entry level BMW, Mercedes, or Audi many are rather putting down a deposit for a Tesla Model 3 and deciding to wait for the Tesla. We are apparently now building desirable cars in America that are better than cars manufactured anywhere else I am sure the Germans have seen these numbers and it is a sobering realty check for what happens when they have yet to release an EV that benchmarks a Tesla released in 2012 and consumers are increasingly not interested in purchasing combustion cars.
On the plus side, it's great to see serious manufacturing coming back to the United States with desirable products being designed and built right here.
As for preferring a V8 over the superior performing drivetrain of a Tesla 90D, I am sure some people preferred the horse and buggy at the advent of combustion cars as well Based on Tesla Model S sales figures more customers are opting for a Tesla for around the same money and this is with Tesla essentially spending zero on advertising. Tesla Model S sales are pretty much based on word of mouth and the reputation of the Model S.
You won't have to wait until 2020 for an electric Mercedes. They will announce the first of 4 long range EVs this October in Paris and it will be a Mercedes GLC-sized CUV. The interesting question will be where Mercedes will source their batteries and at what price. Also how much and how quickly can they get their battery suppliers to scale up when the Tesla Gigafactory by itself will produce the equivalent of the entire rest off the world's supply of batteries with massive economies of scale.
It will be interesting to see the specs of the upcoming Mercedes EV CUV. They are apparently considering an electric only brand within Mercedes. It will also be interesting to see what that will do to their combustion car sales.
After the EV CUV they are also working on a midsize car that will be released after the model that will be unveiled this October. Found an interesting video of what it may look like. The interior certainly looks better than what is offered by Tesla.
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
The Model 3 sales figures are a bit incorrect. The 400,000 deposits or whatever aren't in the US, that is globally. Also, your figures for other brands only count for one year, whereas the Tesla would count for sales that last from 2017 to about 2022. We don't have any reason to prefer the cart or whatever at this moment since gas cars are advanced. Electric cars are quite advanced as well now but what won't be the same is the soul and noise of the car. Of course, most of us S owners and even Model S owners are old now and are out of this phase, but I'd still love to have a nice V8 in my driveway, of course there are other reasons for preferring either cars but there is 30+ pages of that already. You're also putting way too much effort into a forum, you already know that none of us are going to be persuaded, yet you are making presentations equivalent to what is given in boardroom meetings.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
After the EV CUV they are also working on a midsize car that will be released after the model that will be unveiled this October. Found an interesting video of what it may look like. The interior certainly looks better than what is offered by Tesla.
The Model 3 sales figures are a bit incorrect. The 400,000 deposits or whatever aren't in the US, that is globally. Also, your figures for other brands only count for one year, whereas the Tesla would count for sales that last from 2017 to about 2022. We don't have any reason to prefer the cart or whatever at this moment since gas cars are advanced. Electric cars are quite advanced as well now but what won't be the same is the soul and noise of the car. Of course, most of us S owners and even Model S owners are old now and are out of this phase, but I'd still love to have a nice V8 in my driveway, of course there are other reasons for preferring either cars but there is 30+ pages of that already. You're also putting way too much effort into a forum, you already know that none of us are going to be persuaded, yet you are making presentations equivalent to what is given in boardroom meetings.
No need to persuade anyone because as far the Model S is concerned it sells itself. I'm merely responding to opinions and views shared along with some information about the upcoming Mercedes EVs.
I realize the ~400,000 deposits for the Model 3 are globally but it is still interesting for a car that is still over a year from being released to have this many people who have put down a deposit and wait for delivery. Even if about 1/3 of the Model 3 deliveries end up being from the US that will result in the Model 3 outselling the venerable 3 series as soon Tesla ramps up production. All these reservations are based almost entirely on the reputation and merits of the Model S.
Even more interesting that as you can see on the chart I posted the Model 3 competition is already starting to register significant drop in sales.
The Model 3 sales figures are a bit incorrect. The 400,000 deposits or whatever aren't in the US, that is globally. Also, your figures for other brands only count for one year, whereas the Tesla would count for sales that last from 2017 to about 2022. We don't have any reason to prefer the cart or whatever at this moment since gas cars are advanced. Electric cars are quite advanced as well now but what won't be the same is the soul and noise of the car. Of course, most of us S owners and even Model S owners are old now and are out of this phase, but I'd still love to have a nice V8 in my driveway, of course there are other reasons for preferring either cars but there is 30+ pages of that already. You're also putting way too much effort into a forum, you already know that none of us are going to be persuaded, yet you are making presentations equivalent to what is given in boardroom meetings.
Oil-leaking, stinky-gasoline-burning, noise-polluting, maintenance-heavy, 20th-century tech vehicles. You may keep them. 14 more years for MB EVs. Easy choice for me.
It's great that we have both gas vehicles and electric to consider. I haven't driven a Model S yet, but I'll consider one when my lease ends. I really like my luxury and comfort in the Benz. ��
Porsche Taycan, Range Rover AB, Range Rover SVR, S Class, Mclaren 570s, Urus Hybrid (soon), M3, RS6
Originally Posted by TheTeslaDude
Oil-leaking, stinky-gasoline-burning, noise-polluting, maintenance-heavy, 20th-century tech vehicles. You may keep them. 14 more years for MB EVs. Easy choice for me.
Another Tesla fan who made an account just to try making remarks against the Mercedes in this thread
At least websrfr has been a long term Mercedes owner and is willing to admit the negative points
WEBSRFR: As noted, your charts and conclussions are incorrect. Reservations mean nothing compared to actual car sales. As of now, NO Model 3's have been sold.
Also, a more accurate comparison is Model 3 sales to sales for ALL competitors since all of them are gas or hybrid. But actually it is still ZERO Model 3's.
Not to mention now there is controversy over Tesla making repairs to cars IF the owners agreed to not disclose them.
NO evidence that any alleged slow down of luxury/premium car sales is due to waiting for the Mark 3 or any other Tesla. Lots of reasons for a slow down. Interestingly there are also many combustion cars being introduced into the $30,000+ market, to include premium/luxury models. I doubt the manufacturers see this as a mistake.
WEBSRFR: As noted, your charts and conclussions are incorrect. Reservations mean nothing compared to actual car sales. As of now, NO Model 3's have been sold.
Also, a more accurate comparison is Model 3 sales to sales for ALL competitors since all of them are gas or hybrid. But actually it is still ZERO Model 3's.
Not to mention now there is controversy over Tesla making repairs to cars IF the owners agreed to not disclose them.
NO evidence that any alleged slow down of luxury/premium car sales is due to waiting for the Mark 3 or any other Tesla. Lots of reasons for a slow down. Interestingly there are also many combustion cars being introduced into the $30,000+ market, to include premium/luxury models. I doubt the manufacturers see this as a mistake.
Okay you are welcome to keep thinking the ~400,000 reservations with a deposit do not matter.
Lots of reasons for a slow down? How come Tesla sales are not slowing down? Could it be that after experiencing a premium electric drivetrain increasingly people are losing interest in purchasing a legacy drivetrain based on combustion?
I am sure some of the Model 3 competitors kept thinking the Model 3 reservations do not matter also but they are now faced with the sobering realty of losing sales. The Model 3 is not yet even released but just about all of its competitors are in a sales decline. A coincidence? I think not. What we are seeing is what happened to the segment of $100K premium cars when the Model S was released and how the Model S now dominates that segment in the US and Western Europe.
Just look at the chart below. Seems like the same has started to happen with the entry level premium car segment even before Tesla releases the Model 3. Many of those ~400,000 deposits Tesla has received come at the expense of Tesla's competition. Clearly many of the models that the Model 3 will compete with next year are all already registering pretty significant sales declines. Look at what is happening to the sales of the BMW 3-series. Yikes.
To be sure it seems Mercedes has woken up to the fact that EVs are not a passing fad and Tesla is increasingly eating Mercedes' lunch. Let's see what Mercedes releases in October and I hope it will be a no compromise long range high performance EV -- but with a great interior, the one feature that Tesla still lacks in their cars and Mercedes does better than almost anyone else.
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 06-29-2016 at 11:00 PM.
Reason: Tidy up grammar
Okay you are welcome to keep thinking the ~400,000 reservations with a deposit do not matter.
Lots of reasons for a slow down? How come Tesla sales are not slowing down? Could it be that after experiencing a premium electric drivetrain increasingly people are losing interest in purchasing a legacy drivetrain based on combustion?
I am sure some of the Model 3 competitors kept thinking the Model 3 reservations do not matter also but they are now faced with the sobering realty of losing sales. The Model 3 is not yet even released but just about all of its competitors are in a sales decline. A coincidence? I think not. What we are seeing is what happened to the segment of $100K premium cars when the Model S was released and how the Model S now dominates that segment in the US and Western Europe.
Just look at the chart below. Seems like the same has started to happen with the entry level premium car segment even before Tesla releases the Model 3. Many of those ~400,000 deposits Tesla has received come at the expense of Tesla's competition. Clearly many of the models that the Model 3 will compete with next year are all already registering pretty significant sales declines. Look at what is happening to the sales of the BMW 3-series. Yikes.
To be sure it seems Mercedes has woken up to the fact that EVs are not a passing fad and Tesla is increasingly eating Mercedes' lunch. Let's see what Mercedes releases in October and I hope it will be a no compromise long range high performance EV -- but with a great interior, the one feature that Tesla still lacks in their cars and Mercedes does better than almost anyone else.
You are cherry picking the sources you use for one thing. They are pro-EV and anti-gas.
More importantly you are still not comparing Tesla Model S to all its competitors, which is necessary if you say the EV S is better than gas luxury cars.
Incidentally, part of the attraction of the MB S Class is exclusivity, so high sales numbers are not necessarily a good thing. Regardless, the difference between Model S and S Class sales is marginal at this point.
You also have thrown in the Model 3 which totally confuses the issue of comparing the Model S to the S Class. Now it is a comparison of Tesla all models vs. M-B all models. Tesla loses big time in that one.
Not to mention if you add in Tesla all models vs. premium/luxury brands all models. Tesla loses hugely in that comparison.
Furthermore, there have still been ZERO sales for the Model 3 - that's ZERO sales.
Tesla S sales have increased because of pent-up demand from early adopters and fanatics and poor production by Tesla initially.
I can understand you having issues with the numbers when you don't like the numbers.
It's somewhat amusing how you are painting the S Class no longer being the market leader as being desirable for exclusivity. Being number 2 is not quite the same as being exclusive.
Some people on this forum are still in denial that the Model S is outselling the S Class in the US and Western Europe. I remember when the trends started being clear about a year ago they thought it would never happen.
Let's see how the numbers I posted pan out over the months until the release of the Model 3. One thing is for certain. Tesla competitors are already losing sales. BMW YTD 3 series sales are down 27%. C Class sales are down 13%. Even A6 and E Class sales are down.
In fact YTD the entry level premium car segment in the US is already missing about $1.5B in sales. I wonder where those sales went? Perhaps the people who stood in line to put down a deposit and wait for a Tesla Model 3 is the reason that segment is missing over $1B in sales already.
I'm really curious to see what Mercedes' first real EV will look like in October. I found the image below for what could be the interior for a future Mercedes EV. It's interesting to note how the interface and design language is closer to a Tesla than a legacy Mercedes combustion model. I really don't see any buttons at all. The more the auto industry innovates the more they build a car like a Model S. The interior of this Mercedes concept does seem more refined though and the interior remains the one area where Tesla still has room to improve.
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 06-30-2016 at 09:41 AM.
Reason: Fix grammar.
WEB: Per your own chart, many of those "lost" sales went to Genesis, Audi, Jaquar and Infiniti - not to Tesla. And as everyone knows, the automobile industry is cyclical as in there are good years and bad years for sales. This is further complicated by increases in some makes/models not listed on your charts.
You can also add in the number of people who may just be waiting until next year or the year after before getting a gas car.
What is Tesla's total sales in US for last three years vs. total sales for ALL makes sold in US?
Looks like it is not Tesla's month. I am glad Tesla is on the "bleeding edge" of the AutoPilot feature and Mercedes is not.
Tesla Draws Scrutiny From Regulators
After Autopilot Feature Linked to a
Death
Fatal crash in semi-autonomous Model S first known of its kind,
company says
U.S. auto-safety regulators are investigating Tesla Motors Inc.’s autopilot feature after a motorist using the
system died in Florida. PHOTO: REUTERS
Updated June 30, 2016 4:59 p.m. ET
By MIKE SPECTOR
Tesla Draws Scrutiny From Regulators After Autopilot Feature Linked to a Death - WSJ Page 1 of 2
U.S. auto-safety regulators are investigating Tesla Motors Inc.’s autopilot feature after a
motorist using the system died in Florida, ratcheting up scrutiny of the Silicon Valley
electric-vehicle company’s highly-touted technology and driverless cars more broadly.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration opened a so-called preliminary
evaluation into the design and performance of automated driving systems in Tesla’s
Model S, the agency said Thursday. A preliminary evaluation is an initial official probe by
the agency and could later be elevated to a more significant engineering analysis if
widespread, significant problems are found. It isn’t an official determination that a defect
exists in the vehicle.
Regulators opened the probe after Tesla alerted them to a fatal highway crash in
Williston, Fla., May 7 in which a 2015 Model S was using the autopilot feature. The crash
occurred when a tractor-trailer made a left turn in front of the Tesla car at an intersection
of a noncontrolled access highway, the agency said, citing preliminary reports. The driver
died in the crash.
Tesla in a lengthy statement on its website said the crash represented “the first known
fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated.” The company said
it informed regulators immediately after the crash occurred.
“NHTSA’s Office of Defects Investigation will examine the design and performance of the
automated driving systems in use at the time of the crash,” the agency said in a
statement. “During the preliminary evaluation, NHTSA will gather additional data
regarding this incident and other information regarding the automated driving systems.”
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Tesla Draws Scrutiny From Regulators After Autopilot Feature Linked to a Death - WSJ Page 2 of 2
There's no confirmation bias going in here on either side of this argument
Fair point
Let's see how the trends develop but there is no denying that in the US, YTD the entry level premium car segment is now missing about $1.5B in sales while the Tesla Model 3 racked up about 400,000 order deposits.
Let's see how the trends develop but there is no denying that in the US, YTD the entry level premium car segment is now missing about $1.5B in sales while the Tesla Model 3 racked up about 400,000 order deposits.
This was a Tesla screw up and I'm not going to defend it.
They published the theoretical maximum motor power without taking into account the amount of Amps you can draw from the battery to actually deliver that motor hp.
This would be like a combustion vehicle not being able to deliver the engine horsepower at the wheel due to transmission or differential system loses.
So what this means is my P85D does not have 650HP and it is more closer to around 500hp. But after a recent software update my P85D is now faster and goes to 60 in about 3.1s and at the end of the day the P85D remains and indeed even more warp drive fast than the day I bought it.
The Ludicrous Mode upgrade is actually a special pyro fuse that uses a special space-age alloy used in SpaceX spacecraft that allows more amps and consequently additional horsepower to be drawn out of the battery so this issue is now addressed.
They probably should not have been so overzealous with the horsepower specs but really this is not an issue for anyone who owns a P85D as apart from a few supercars that cost several times as much a P85D is just about untouchable in day-to-day traffic. If I want to out accelerate someone in my Tesla it is just about irrelevant what the other person drives (unless it is a Tesla P90D) and at the end of the day when it comes to performance the Tesla delivers and that's all that matters.
This was a Tesla screw up and I'm not going to defend it.
They published the theoretical maximum motor power without taking into account the amount of Amps you can draw from the battery to actually deliver that motor hp.
This would be like a combustion vehicle not being able to deliver the engine horsepower at the wheel due to transmission or differential system loses.
So what this means is my P85D does not have 650HP and it is more closer to around 500hp. But after a recent software update my P85D is now faster and goes to 60 in about 3.1s and at the end of the day the P85D remains and indeed even more warp drive fast than the day I bought it.
The Ludicrous Mode upgrade is actually a special pyro fuse that uses a special space-age alloy used in SpaceX spacecraft that allows more amps and consequently additional horsepower to be drawn out of the battery so this issue is now addressed.
They probably should not have been so overzealous with the horsepower specs but really this is not an issue for anyone who owns a P85D as apart from a few supercars that cost several times as much a P85D is just about untouchable in day-to-day traffic. If I want to out accelerate someone in my Tesla it is just about irrelevant what the other person drives (unless it is a Tesla P90D) and at the end of the day when it comes to performance the Tesla delivers and that's all that matters.
Unfortunately P90D, in real World not on paper, "wins" against performance sedans (M5, E63S, RS6, Hellcat, CTS-V) only in the first 100ft and gets reeled in quickly after, assuming the battery is fully charged of course.
If you care to "race" others between city traffic lights at a distance of 200-300ft then be my guest, get the Tesla and you are guaranteed the trophy (whatever it is).
Unfortunately P90D, in real World not on paper, "wins" against performance sedans (M5, E63S, RS6, Hellcat, CTS-V) only in the first 100ft and gets reeled in quickly after, assuming the battery is fully charged of course.
If you care to "race" others between city traffic lights at a distance of 200-300ft then be my guest, get the Tesla and you are guaranteed the trophy (whatever it is).
By real world I mean as most sane people drive their vehicles in the real world. Any vehicle will go fast given enough time and then it becomes a game of who is stupid enough to drive triple digit speeds for prolonged periods on public roads and risk jail time if caught.
The point being when you are driving a P85D or P90D Tesla and you are driving in normal traffic and you want to pass someone, there is nothing they can do to prevent you from passing them.
We are not talking about track racing here and I'd never race anyone on public streets into triple digit speeds. We are talking about 1/8 mile acceleration or 0-60 type day to day driving scenarios. Basically if I'm stopped at a red light no one in a AMG or hellcat making silly farting exhaust sounds can get in front of me if I don't want them to. Conversely I can out accelerate and make a safe lane change in front of them with plenty of room to spare if I decide to do so and there is nothing they can do about it as the Tesla goes to warp speed in an instant.
Performance is not an area where you will see a Tesla loose in day to day driving. I'd stick to talking about the interior as that's where the tesla can improve
By real world I mean as most sane people drive their vehicles in the real world. Any vehicle will go fast given enough time and then it becomes a game of who is stupid enough to drive triple digit speeds for prolonged periods on public roads and risk jail time if caught.
The point being when you are driving a P85D or P90D Tesla and you are driving in normal traffic and you want to pass someone, there is nothing they can do to prevent you from passing them.
We are not talking about track racing here and I'd never race anyone on public streets into triple digit speeds. We are talking about 1/8 mile acceleration or 0-60 type day to day driving scenarios. Basically if I'm stopped at a red light no one in a AMG or hellcat making silly farting exhaust sounds can get in front of me if I don't want them to. Conversely I can out accelerate and make a safe lane change in front of them with plenty of room to spare if I decide to do so and there is nothing they can do about it as the Tesla goes to warp speed in an instant.
Performance is not an area where you will see a Tesla loose in day to day driving. I'd stick to talking about the interior as that's where the tesla can improve
You just never had an opportunity to try to pass a guy who really didn't want you to get in front of him (which would make him an ***, since most are courteous and wouldn't do such a thing).
Try to pull that stunt on a Hellcat or E63S at highway speeds and you will only continue to see and hear that "silly farting" exhaust in front of you........
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by absent
You just never had an opportunity to try to pass a guy who really didn't want you to get in front of him (which would make him an ***, since most are courteous and wouldn't do such a thing).
Try to pull that stunt on a Hellcat or E63S at highway speeds and you will only continue to see and hear that "silly farting" exhaust in front of you........
I'm not so sure. Below are C&D numbers, 50-70mph:
2015 Tesla P90D: 1.8sec
2015 SRT Hellcat: 2.4sec
2014 E63S: 2.7sec (wagon...the wagon is 0.1 slower than the sedan 0-60, per MB specs)
Granted, they don't publish 60-80 or 70-90. Maybe you can find a couple friends and arrange to test all 3 at the same time on a stretch of highway.
06-26-2016, 02:13 PM
I am sure the Germans have seen these numbers and it is a sobering realty check for what happens when they have yet to release an EV that benchmarks a Tesla released in 2012 and consumers are increasingly not interested in purchasing combustion cars.
Based on Tesla Model S sales figures more customers are opting for a Tesla for around the same money and this is with Tesla essentially spending zero on advertising. Tesla Model S sales are pretty much based on word of mouth and the reputation of the Model S.
