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Got it. Mercedes has their best and the brightest working on building desirable EVs and they expect it to take about 9 years to catch up to Tesla.
Actually the Mercedes CEO admitted that Tesla is the current leader in electric cars and that it would take Mercedes about 9 years to try and catch up to be the leader in EVs.
Still I am glad that they have begun the journey as with the Model 3 coming out next year an increasingly large segment of the premium car market will be dominated by EVs.
Nice try. You make it sound like MB will take 9 years to catch up to Teslas tech. There is actually nothing to catch up to as the tech is the car is pretty standard, bordering on old.
Unless the charging speed & infrastructure is addressed, consumer interest will remain low.
For example, Germany had introduced an EV subsidy of 4000 Euros per car earlier this year just to find out that (virtually) nobody cares. And that is not a tax credit, but an immediate refund...
Nice try. You make it sound like MB will take 9 years to catch up to Teslas tech. There is actually nothing to catch up to as the tech is the car is pretty standard, bordering on old.
Actually that is precisely what the Mercedes CEO said. He acknowledged that Tesla is the current leader in EVs. Presumably Mercedes now has their best and the brightest working on EVs and the Mercedes CEO hopes to catch up to Tesla's leadership position in the segment in 9 years. This is precisely what he said.
Nice try proclaiming there is nothing to catch up and the implication that it is easy to do so. Then how come Mercedes is allowing the loss of S Class market share quarter after quarter to the Tesla Model S? The Model S is outselling the S Class in the same price segment in the US and Western Europe without spending any money on advertising. Model S production just went this quarter by another 50%.
Technology is not just building one prototype car. It has to do with having the capacity to build batteries, EV components, and most importantly the software to bring it all together. Tesla is so far ahead in these areas that the Mercedes CEO expects Mercedes 9 years to catch up to Tesla. If he could do so sooner he would.
Unless the charging speed & infrastructure is addressed, consumer interest will remain low.
Nice try but these are not issues to Tesla customers. In fact with our Tesla I spend far less time each year "refueling" our Tesla. We used to waste 15 minutes getting gas every week or so and now we leave the house every day with about 270 miles of range that is sufficient for 95% of our driving. On occasions when we drive further we are completely covered by the Tesla Supercharger network.
And something you might not be aware of is Tesla's destination Charger network. Just about every high end property we visit these days is part of that network with dedicated chargers for Tesla vehicles. Tesla’s Destination Charging network has 5,300 chargers at 3,100 locations worldwide. This number is expected to double by the end of next year when the Model 3 starts rolling out.
This chart is a bit old but it shows the growth of the tesla charging network.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
For example, Germany had introduced an EV subsidy of 4000 Euros per car earlier this year just to find out that (virtually) nobody cares. And that is not a tax credit, but an immediate refund...
Nice try again. The reason nobody cares about this particular subsidy is because the crafty German lawmakers specifically drafted that subsidy to exclude the one EV that is actually worth buying, the Tesla Model S.
So yes, few in Germany are using the subsidy that much because other than Tesla the rest of the auto industry is still building ancient relics of combustion engineering with smoke stacks in the back that make farting sounds
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 10-09-2016 at 03:31 PM.
Reason: Fix typo.
Actually that is precisely what the Mercedes CEO said. He acknowledged that Tesla is the current leader in EVs. Presumably Mercedes now has their best and the brightest working on EVs and the Mercedes CEO hopes to catch up to Tesla's leadership position in the segment in 9 years. This is precisely what he said.
Nice try proclaiming there is nothing to catch up and the implication that it is easy to do so. Then how come Mercedes is allowing the loss of S Class market share quarter after quarter to the Tesla Model S? The Model S is outselling the S Class in the same price segment in the US and Western Europe without spending any money on advertising. Model S production just went this quarter by another 50%.
Technology is not just building one prototype car. It has to do with having the capacity to build batteries, EV components, and most importantly the software to bring it all together. Tesla is so far ahead in these areas that the Mercedes CEO expects Mercedes 9 years to catch up to Tesla. If he could do so sooner he would.
Nice try but these are not issues to Tesla customers. In fact with our Tesla I spend far less time each year "refueling" our Tesla. We used to waste 15 minutes getting gas every week or so and now we leave the house every day with about 270 miles of range that is sufficient for 95% of our driving. On occasions when we drive further we are completely covered by the Tesla Supercharger network.
And something you might not be aware of is Tesla's destination Charger network. Just about every high end property we visit these days is part of that network with dedicated chargers for Tesla vehicles. Tesla’s Destination Charging network has 5,300 chargers at 3,100 locations worldwide. This number is expected to double by the end of next year when the Model 3 starts rolling out.
This chart is a bit old but it shows the growth of the tesla charging network.
Nice try again. The reason nobody cares about this particular subsidy is because the crafty German lawmakers specifically drafted that subsidy to exclude the one EV that is actually worth buying, the Tesla Model S.
So yes, few in Germany are using the subsidy that much because other than Tesla the rest of the auto industry is still building ancient relics of combustion engineering with smoke stacks in the back that make farting sounds
Your ability to comprehend sentences seems low.
Sales leadership does NOT equal technical leadership. Especially in light of no competition and producing nothing else (we'll disregard the power stations). This will naturally change over time. MB will not need to catch up technically but in product development and sales. Funny that you can't tell the two apart...
Interest in EV's is low in Germany, even with the incentive. Tesla was excluded because their selling price is above the subsidy limit of 60,000 Euros (about $66k).
The assumption is that if you can afford a car at that price range, you won't need the financial incentive (as the car should sell on their own merit).
One thing you seem to have difficulties with is that for the broad adoption of EV's a large public investment in charging stations is required. You mention a few thousand, I am referring to a million plus.
I am using primarily Europe as an example as we are discussing European cars. Most people there live in apartments and park their cars on the street. This is not about plugging in their EV in their garage.
For you, the world revolves around Tesla.
For me, I couldn't care less about the brand. It is about the potential of EV's and I am ready to get one that excites me. Teslas are just not built well enough and are getting pretty old looking (bordering on ugly with the facelift).
Sales leadership does NOT equal technical leadership. Especially in light of no competition and producing nothing else (we'll disregard the power stations). This will naturally change over time. MB will not need to catch up technically but in product development and sales. Funny that you can't tell the two apart...
Interest in EV's is low in Germany, even with the incentive. Tesla was excluded because their selling price is above the subsidy limit of 60,000 Euros (about $66k).
The assumption is that if you can afford a car at that price range, you won't need the financial incentive (as the car should sell on their own merit).
One thing you seem to have difficulties with is that for the broad adoption of EV's a large public investment in charging stations is required. You mention a few thousand, I am referring to a million plus.
I am using primarily Europe as an example as we are discussing European cars. Most people there live in apartments and park their cars on the street. This is not about plugging in their EV in their garage.
For you, the world revolves around Tesla.
For me, I couldn't care less about the brand. It is about the potential of EV's and I am ready to get one that excites me. Teslas are just not built well enough and are getting pretty old looking (bordering on ugly with the facelift).
German Bundesrat calls for EU to ban sales of ICE cars (and hybrids) after 2030: article
Just in time for Mercedes planning to catch up with Tesla in 9 years from now in time for combusting vehicles essentially being banned in Germany.
Combusting vehicles will likely be banned in Norway and a couple of other EU countries possibly even earlier around 2025. Already over 25% of vehicles sold in Norway are EVs.
All this will be a moot point as within the next 2-3 years it will cost less to manufacturer a long range EV than a combusting car due to battery costs going down significantly. Tesla by themselves will double worldwide battery production when the Tesla Gigafactory comes fully online. Initial production has already started at the Gigafactory.
Exciting times to live in to see an entire industry being reinvented.
Just in time for Mercedes planning to catch up with Tesla in 9 years from now in time for combusting vehicles essentially being banned in Germany.
Combusting vehicles will likely be banned in Norway and a couple of other EU countries possibly even earlier around 2025. Already over 25% of vehicles sold in Norway are EVs.
All this will be a moot point as within the next 2-3 years it will cost less to manufacturer a long range EV than a combusting car due to battery costs going down significantly. Tesla by themselves will double worldwide battery production when the Tesla Gigafactory comes fully online. Initial production has already started at the Gigafactory.
Exciting times to live in to see an entire industry being reinvented.
WEBSRFR,
And how do you get that combustion vehicles will be banned in Norway as early as 2025?
There was an old report early this year that was false stating that Norway was going to ban combustion vehicles by 2025. Shortly thereafter the Norwegian govt. came out and stated that report was not correct. Even the "great" Elon Musk tweeted that Norway was great for doing this even though he had been hood winked by the false report as well.
Norway has very very heavy incentives for EVs such as removal of the 25% VAT tax on the purchase of an EV that the combustion cars are subject to. WEBSRFR does not want to tell you this since he wants everyone to believe that Tesla is so great that everyone in Norway is buying a Tesla. He also does not mention that EVs in Norway are not subject to highway tolls and ferry tolls as well as free parking everywhere, etc.
THE BELOW IS FROM "CLEAN TECHNICA" ARTICLE
Norway is not going to prohibit its citizens from buying new diesel/gasoline cars, but it will implement progressive policies to encourage a transition towards electric vehicles. That’s great news, but I wouldn’t be me if I didn’t add the following:
Norway continues to extract as much carbon from the ground as possible even as we all praise it for its progress in sexy issues that go viral. Because we count carbon emissions at the end of the pipe rather than the point of extraction, Musk and Co. may never mention Norway’s giant new gas venture in Iran. (They get to make a profit selling it to you, and you’re the bad guy for consuming it.)
All of these incentives will eventually have to be done away with. Once electric vehicles make up a large share of the car fleet, we cannot have them not paying tolls anywhere, traveling for free on ferries, parking everywhere for free, etc. The foregone revenue is eventually too great. We need a different kind of taxation.
Electric cars are still cars, and there is no place for them in a 2,000-Watt Society.
Electric cars are still cars, and they clog up our streets. We need far fewer cars. A shift from private ownership to participation in (possibly self-driving) fleets will be crucial here.
Electric cars are a patch for the problem of urban sprawl. Fix urban sprawl, and you don’t need so many electric cars.
WEBSRFR continues to be deceptive towards trying to convince everyone on this MB site that Tesla is soo much better than MB.
I trust absolutely nothing that WEBSRFR types since it is clear he has only one agenda on this site.
IT IS TO disparage MB and lift up Tesla. What a nut and FRAUD! Oh and did I ever mention that WEBSRFR has financial incentives to lift up Tesla on this site?
While I love OTA software updates and think Tesla did a great job on this, your argument makes zero sense.
Software in a car accounts for such a tiny portion of the overall value proposition. It's like buying a house because it has a smart thermostat.
Well in all fairness if you drive a Mercedes and don't have a Tesla in your household I can completely understand how to you software in the car makes a tiny portion of the overall value proposition.
The two Mercedes vehicles in our household were shipped with marginally adequate software and none of the safety systems, media interfaces, navigation and map capabilities or anything else to do with the usability of our Mercedes cars will ever get better with over time.
Contrast that to our Tesla and the difference is significant. Our Model S was recently updated to Firmware 8.0 overnight and that delivered around 200 new features and enhancements to the car that match the features of brand news Model S vehicles leaving the assembly line today.
One of those 200 new features in an enhancement to the Automatic Emergency Braking subsystem. They managed to actually update the firmware of the radar sensor to bounce signals underneath the car in front of you to detect a panic stop of a vehicle two cars ahead.
As you can see in the video below this means if the car two cars ahead initiates a panic stop the Tesla two cars behind it will initiate Automatic Emergency Braking to avoid an accident.
And on top of this enhancement, the navigation and maps are now even more refined and the media interface has also been completely revamped for High Definition Internet Audio along with natively playing high resolution lossless audio in a USB drive.
And we still would have bought a Tesla without these software updates because of the EV drivetrain is so much more refined than a combusting car. These software enhancements just make owning a Tesla even better. And 6 years after Tesla released the Model S Mercedes or another car manufacturer has yet to offer over the air software updates so the entire fleet of sold vehicles match the same features and capabilities of the cars leaving the assembly line today.
While I love OTA software updates and think Tesla did a great job on this, your argument makes zero sense.
Software in a car accounts for such a tiny portion of the overall value proposition. It's like buying a house because it has a smart thermostat.
Exactly. For most people, it is purchasing a car, not a phone or a computer.
As for the number of charging stations, WEBSFER's chart shows they are heavilty biased toward commercial sites. Upscale (expensive) sites which expect you to spend more than a few dollars while hooked up to their charging unit - or waiting to get to use it.
WEBSFER still has not revealed his financial connection to Tesla.
Well in all fairness if you drive a Mercedes and don't have a Tesla in your household I can completely understand how to you software in the car makes a tiny portion of the overall value proposition.
The two Mercedes vehicles in our household were shipped with marginally adequate software and none of the safety systems, media interfaces, navigation and map capabilities or anything else to do with the usability of our Mercedes cars will ever get better with over time.
Contrast that to our Tesla and the difference is significant. Our Model S was recently updated to Firmware 8.0 overnight and that delivered around 200 new features and enhancements to the car that match the features of brand news Model S vehicles leaving the assembly line today.
One of those 200 new features in an enhancement to the Automatic Emergency Braking subsystem. They managed to actually update the firmware of the radar sensor to bounce signals underneath the car in front of you to detect a panic stop of a vehicle two cars ahead.
As you can see in the video below this means if the car two cars ahead initiates a panic stop the Tesla two cars behind it will initiate Automatic Emergency Braking to avoid an accident.
And on top of this enhancement, the navigation and maps are now even more refined and the media interface has also been completely revamped for High Definition Internet Audio along with natively playing high resolution lossless audio in a USB drive.
And we still would have bought a Tesla without these software updates because of the EV drivetrain is so much more refined than a combusting car. These software enhancements just make owning a Tesla even better. And 6 years after Tesla released the Model S Mercedes or another car manufacturer has yet to offer over the air software updates so the entire fleet of sold vehicles match the same features and capabilities of the cars leaving the assembly line today.
Software remains to be a minor part of the driving experience unless combined with hardware enhancements.
You mention details the few Tesla owners I know (three) wouldn't even notice. It's a great system as I stated before, just only a small part of the car...
Interesting article in Dec. issue of Hemmings Classic Car magazine on Electrifying AMCs.
Basically discusses how American Motors cooperated with other companies to develop some electric vehicles in late 60's and early 70's. None were commercially successful, even though gasoline prices had skyrocketed and there had been gas shortages.
Of course, times and EV's are different now, but interesting from an historical point of view.
Wow! Tesla made a big announcement. With a lot of "spin".
They announced that the production Teslas going forward will have self driving hardware that will not be turned on until some future date.
Additionally, they announced a big negative for Tesla followers: they will be removing most of the capabilities of the Tesla AutoPilot. Finally, Tesla is realizing they erred on how much over the air capabilities they provided through Autopilot.
I guess some people are too ignorant to know how Autopilot is used in aviation. They are also apparently too ignorant to read.
Interestingly Mercedes calls their half baked lane keep feature that can barely drive by itself for a minute or two a "self driving car" which I presume should be a greater concern for these German authorities or anyone else who has an issue with Tesla calling their system Autopilot (which in aviation is only used with a licensed pilot paying attention the entire time).
Apparently WEBSRFR is back to being ignorant himself. That ad did not last very long and was pulled and not used beginning sometime in July--we are in October and WEBSRFR is writing about something that is not even relevant. Simply put MB is a much better run company than Tesla.
Why does WEBSRFR hate MB so much (what is with the phrase--half backed)? Because he is paid by Tesla to disparage MB.
HEADING BELOW OF AN ARTICLE ANNOUNCING MB PULLING THE AD.
Mercedes Pulled a Self-Driving Car Ad Because It’s Not Actually a Self-Driving Car
I guess some people are too ignorant to know how Autopilot is used in aviation. They are also apparently too ignorant to read.
Interestingly Mercedes calls their half baked lane keep feature that can barely drive by itself for a minute or two a "self driving car" which I presume should be a greater concern for these German authorities or anyone else who has an issue with Tesla calling their system Autopilot (which in aviation is only used with a licensed pilot paying attention the entire time).
[QUOTE=WEBSRFR;6946959]I guess some people are too ignorant to know how Autopilot is used in aviation. They are also apparently too ignorant to read.
Interestingly Mercedes calls their half baked lane keep feature that can barely drive by itself for a minute or two a "self driving car" which I presume should be a greater concern for these German authorities or anyone else who has an issue with Tesla calling their system Autopilot (which in aviation is only used with a licensed pilot paying attention the entire time).
Mercedes-Benz has cancelled all use of the self driving and autonomous phrases in its advertising. Apparently for safety concerns. This is a repeat of earlier thread, but if I knew this months ago, why didn't WEBSRFR?
I guess some people are too ignorant to know how Autopilot is used in aviation. They are also apparently too ignorant to read.
Interestingly Mercedes calls their half baked lane keep feature that can barely drive by itself for a minute or two a "self driving car" which I presume should be a greater concern for these German authorities or anyone else who has an issue with Tesla calling their system Autopilot (which in aviation is only used with a licensed pilot paying attention the entire time).
So the German authorities are too ignorant to believe Tesla's marketing pitch? Got it.
The aviation terminology and its use in planes has no relevance to the average driver. It is marketing and nothing else. The marketing agency that Mercedes used make the same stupid mistake in over-promising their assistive system.
Both Teslas and Mercedes' marketing terms are misleading. Simple as that.
Mercedes pulled theirs, Tesla did not.
The reality is that none of these systems are ready for prime time and will not be autonomous in the short-term. To me, they are only useful in a traffic jam.
If Tesla is not changing their language in Germany, it will be done for them.
Not that it matters for the 1000 or so cars Tesla has sold in Germany this year
Not that it matters for the 1000 or so cars Tesla has sold in Germany this year
Oh, so glad you brought the topic of Tesla market share
The 2016 US Q3 numbers are in and it is dismal for the Mercedes S Class. Quarter over quarter Model S US sales are up 59% and the S Class US sales are down 42%. Yikes!
Moreover Tesla now represents 25% of the US market share of the upper end of the premium 4 door car segment. Within about a year Tesla market share should reach around 35-40% of the entire market segment. Already Tesla is almost outselling the US sales of the S Class, the 7 Series, and the CLS COMBINED.
The world's finest and most desirable cars are now designed and built right here in America!
Since you have plenty of time to cherry pick reports, how about one on:
Total sales for the below for 0ct. 2015 through Sep. 2016. NOT just the sedans. Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, BMW, Audi, Lexus.
One thing you keep ignoring is that many "S" class, 7 series, LS, etc. owners move to a different vehicle type, but stay with the same manufacturer. Also some are moving to a less expensive or smaller model, but within the same make.
Also you seem to be ignoring the 219% increase in 7 Series sales.
Oh it won't make me mad but whoever buys a car that can't receive software updates will be mad when their car deteriorates and falls behind in technology each year.
I would be mad if I was stuck in a car that never got better
Originally Posted by Wolfman
While I love OTA software updates and think Tesla did a great job on this, your argument makes zero sense.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
Software in a car accounts for such a tiny portion of the overall value proposition. It's like buying a house because it has a smart thermostat.
I think that's a massive broad stroke. You can operate a home with the thermostat unplugged, but conversely you can't operate a car without software (since about 1980).
But that's not to say I completely agree with WEBSRFR either... The exclusivity of OTA updates for Tesla has a very short shelf life.
Additionally, you can only apply so many updates to hardware before software changes become insolvent.
I worry more about the implications of an actively networked car and how it will affect custom tuning.
One negative about Tesla ownership is the unpredictability; even though it's generally in the good direction. E.g., many people now on Tesla forum is complaining that they no longer have the best car. Many of them paid 120k+ for their cars and want the most up-to-date tech but now is already outdated by the new AP hardware. So that's a negative.
However I think it's also a positive in that it will push technology forward at a faster pace. When there's competition, there's greater drive.
Anyways, Autopilot 1 has not been disabled and will continue to improve. AP2 hardware will take a few months of calibration to match the performance of AP1, but eventually will surpass it. I personally am not sure if AP2 will really be capable of fully autonomous driving, but it's cool that the brand is pushing that tech forward!
If fully auto or almost fully auto drive comes along, I do think I might prefer to own an MB version however, since it ll be more comfortable to ride in hehe. In the mean time, I ll stick with Tesla, or maybe get another BMW.
I think that's a massive broad stroke. You can operate a home with the thermostat unplugged, but conversely you can't operate a car without software (since about 1980).
But that's not to say I completely agree with WEBSRFR either... The exclusivity of OTA updates for Tesla has a very short shelf life.
Additionally, you can only apply so many updates to hardware before software changes become insolvent.
I worry more about the implications of an actively networked car and how it will affect custom tuning.
Not a broad stroke at all.
I am not against software but we were discussing solely the OTA aspect as WEBSRFR prior posts as he considers it the be all, end all.
Obviously general software in cars is essential. After all, the S-Class has 100 processors in the car
Perhaps I should re-phrase it to be a house with a smart "updatable" thermostat.
IS IT POSSBILE THAT WEBSRFR IS MAKING UP CHARTS? I found that he is twisting the sales numbers of the S Class. I went to the article and found that WEBSRFR is possibly fraudulently misrepresenting the sales numbers for the S Class. The actually chart is below his.
10-07-2016, 05:39 PM
Source: Tesla internal sales data and competitor information compiled by the automaker.
