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I ended up not going for a Tesla. Too many small things that just made it less compelling.
With the exception of the white interior that Lovin is getting (which has never been offered in leather) Tesla actually only switched to the pleather interior in July.
They did offer a new P100D made with full leather interior at a pretty decent discount ($21k+ off) but at this point will re-visit EV's another time.
Meanwhile we did take a new Panamera for a spin. It looks much better than the 1st. gen. humpback in both the interior and exterior. So this is definitely an option for a more sporty variant.
They didn't have the 4S or the e-hybrid so we tried the 4 and the Turbo.
The base model was shockingly slow and even the Turbo felt only slightly faster than our SL but I really liked the new interior layout and the suspension w. rear wheel steering.
I agree that this is bad, really bad. I'm going to forward it to my wife and maybe she'll thing twice about wanting to replace our Model S with a Model X. Maybe we'll instead get an Audi EV in 2018.
But not necessarily. Bad publicity for Tesla, with probably more to come from the lawsuit, might help move them toward a better path. And imo any car (or car company) has some negatives. I'd put this in as a negative...but it may or may not in itself tip the balance to the Audi, because there are other factors up on the balance device as well.
Other companies aren't perfect, either. MB has been sued too...I remember an instance where due to mis-specified tires, some customers had tires developing flat spots or something like that,and MB was in denial that the fault was theirs. Eventually there was a class action suit.
And p.s. we've never had to reboot our car in the 14 months and 21k miles that we've had it.
I agree that this is bad, really bad. I'm going to forward it to my wife and maybe she'll thing twice about wanting to replace our Model S with a Model X. Maybe we'll instead get an Audi EV in 2018.
But not necessarily. Bad publicity for Tesla, with probably more to come from the lawsuit, might help move them toward a better path. And imo any car (or car company) has some negatives. I'd put this in as a negative...but it may or may not in itself tip the balance to the Audi, because there are other factors up on the balance device as well.
Other companies aren't perfect, either. MB has been sued too...I remember an instance where due to mis-specified tires, some customers had tires developing flat spots or something like that,and MB was in denial that the fault was theirs. Eventually there was a class action suit.
And p.s. we've never had to reboot our car in the 14 months and 21k miles that we've had it.
I consider Tesla's software-centric car design (features and functionality) with over the updates of Tesla a huge competitive differentiator but also a significant weakness.
I know that Tesla is often compared with Apple, but I disagree. It's more like Microsoft with it's Windows software.
Having spent time in the car and reading the Tesla forums the general trend is that functionality is ALWAYS a software update away.
From small stuff like rain sensing wipers to self driving functionality, it's not available but always coming. So while one can argue that the car is continuously getting better another can say that the car is in constant development or beta mode with the finished product being somewhere in the near future.
This is something that Apple doesn't do.
It also appears (in the words of a Tesla employee) that significant software development resources are allocated to the Model 3, leaving the Model S/X somewhat low of the priority list.
FWIW. Audi is starting to take deposits for their e-tron SUV in Norway for 2018 delivery. This car seems more compelling than the Model X to me and I'll put my deposit down as soon as it's offered in the US.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Wolfman
Having spent time in the car and reading the Tesla forums the general trend is that functionality is ALWAYS a software update away.
From small stuff like rain sensing wipers to self driving functionality, it's not available but always coming. So while one can argue that the car is continuously getting better another can say that the car is in constant development or beta mode with the finished product being somewhere in the near future.
This is something that Apple doesn't do.
It also appears (in the words of a Tesla employee) that significant software development resources are allocated to the Model 3, leaving the Model S/X somewhat low of the priority list.
I think it is very clear that Tesla's resources are stretched. I've said before on this forum that the car is under-engineered in many respects. Even little things like the lack of mirror-mounted turn signals, the joke tonneau cover in the S, the ridiculous front cup holders, the lack of rear cupholders in the S (maybe added recently, I don't remember). These are things that many owners put up with because of the car's other virtues. We've heard of a family in our town that owns FOUR Teslas.
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
When I talk about being in a major crash, even though electronic features such as Distronic, AutoPilot and various crash avoidance systems are important, Im talking more about the structural integrity of the vehicle. When I'm driving my S Class, I feel like I am in a tank. I feel that I would have the best chance of avoiding serious injury in my S550, way more than if I were in pretty much any other sedan on the road, especially one built by a tech start-up company, with zero lineage and little experience building automobiles. I feel that MB has a tremendous leg up on safety in this regard.
Here's another story about MB's service. In the first few years that I owned a 2008 W221, I complained maybe 4-6 times about a high-pitched whining sound. It would typically happen in the first 30 sec after startup, but sometimes at other times at low speeds. It turned out to be what I think was called the airmatic pump or compressor or something like that. It was replaced TWICE. But the first replacement had the same problem. The second replacement did too, perhaps even a bit worse that previously.
It turns out that standard operating procedure for MB seems to be to replace parts under warranty with REMANUFACTURED parts. One wonders how much actual remanufacturing had really been done, since the replacements had the same problem as the old parts. So, I got parts from some other poor dude who had been experiencing the same noise, and my bad parts were passed on to some other MB customer. That's MB's idea of service.
Eventually I gave up and just lived with the occasional noise.
But I still went ahead with getting the W222, Every car I have bought involves some pluses and some minuses.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Streamliner
When I talk about being in a major crash, even though electronic features such as Distronic, AutoPilot and various crash avoidance systems are important, Im talking more about the structural integrity of the vehicle. When I'm driving my S Class, I feel like I am in a tank. I feel that I would have the best chance of avoiding serious injury in my S550, way more than if I were in pretty much any other sedan on the road, especially one built by a tech start-up company, with zero lineage and little experience building automobiles. I feel that MB has a tremendous leg up on safety in this regard.
This EV concept might be right up your alley! ...if it ever sees production.
Here's another story about MB's service. In the first few years that I owned a 2008 W221, I complained maybe 4-6 times about a high-pitched whining sound. It would typically happen in the first 30 sec after startup, but sometimes at other times at low speeds. It turned out to be what I think was called the airmatic pump or compressor or something like that. It was replaced TWICE. But the first replacement had the same problem. The second replacement did too, perhaps even a bit worse that previously.
It turns out that standard operating procedure for MB seems to be to replace parts under warranty with REMANUFACTURED parts. One wonders how much actual remanufacturing had really been done, since the replacements had the same problem as the old parts. So, I got parts from some other poor dude who had been experiencing the same noise, and my bad parts were passed on to some other MB customer. That's MB's idea of service.
Eventually I gave up and just lived with the occasional noise.
But I still went ahead with getting the W222, Every car I have bought involves some pluses and some minuses.
Agreed. Customers of all brands have fantastic experiences and horror stories to share, in the end the question is where on the scale the majority of the experiences sit.
There is a difference with Tesla that so far had to primarily deal with early adopters of EV's and Tesla. That customer group is typically more affluent, engaged and at least to some extend more understanding that tech and companies have growing pains.
Tesla wants to become mainstream and will experience that the average consumer spending only a fraction of a Model S will have much higher expectations of the car in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance and availability of easy charging.
We'll see how that plays out because building out an extensive service network is no quick and easy task, even if mobile.
If you are not familiar with the situation, it is alleged that "Mercedes produced certain vehicles equipped with defective gears in their balance shafts (in the event of the M272 engines) or with defective idle gears (in the case of the M273 engines). These defective gears wear out prematurely, excessively, and without warning, causing the vehicle to malfunction, the ‘check engine light’ to remain illuminated, and the vehicle to have symptoms such as misfiring or catastrophic stops."
I am quite familiar with this because our E550 had this same engine and there was a massive repair that took nearly a week to fix this issue.
What did Mercedes do when this catastrophic engine issue materialized? Let it fester until there was a class action lawsuit.
By comparison, Tesla had a drivetrain issue on early Model S vehicles and what did they do? They retroactively and immediately changed the drivetrain warranty of all Tesla Model S vehicles to 8 years, unlimited miles.
And this was a decision made by the CEO of Tesla at a time when the company had very few resources to spare and I have enclosed below what he had to say.
So yes, Tesla put a hole in someone's car and someone dropped the ball in getting that fixed up. How many threads have you seen on this forum where Mercedes dealers damaged owner cars and then tried to disclaim responsibility? At the end of the day, Tesla will make it right and use it as a learning experience.
To suggest that someone should avoid buying a Tesla because a seat was damaged while in service is quite rich in hypocrisy, based on past behavior by Mercedes.
Infinite Mile Warranty
Elon Musk, CEO August 15, 2014
The Tesla Model S drive unit warranty has been increased to match that of the battery pack. That means the 85 kWh Model S, our most popular model by far, now has an 8 year, infinite mile warranty on both the battery pack and drive unit. There is also no limit on the number of owners during the warranty period.
Moreover, the warranty extension will apply retroactively to all Model S vehicles ever produced. In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.
To investors in Tesla, I must acknowledge that this will have a moderately negative effect on Tesla earnings in the short term, as our warranty reserves will necessarily have to increase above current levels. This is amplified by the fact that we are doing so retroactively, not just for new customers. However, by doing the right thing for Tesla vehicle owners at this early stage of our company, I am confident that it will work out well in the long term.
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
To: WEBSRFR:
Sir, your reputation precedes you, to the point where I really don't believe anyone here will waste their time reading your posts.
Have a nice day!
Tesla wants to become mainstream and will experience that the average consumer spending only a fraction of a Model S will have much higher expectations of the car in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance and availability of easy charging.
We'll see how that plays out because building out an extensive service network is no quick and easy task, even if mobile.
Yes, this will be a challenge but likely not as big of a challenge for Elon Musk as building rockets that launch payloads into orbit and then land vertically so the same rocket can be reused.
His competition included not just other Aero-Space companies but the actual nation states of Russia and China along with the continent of Europe with essentially unlimited resources. They all mocked him and thought landing an orbital-class rocket for reuse was so difficult that it is a fool's errand.
And then this happened with American ingenuity and you'll see the same level of American ingenuity as tesla scales up to be a company worth more than Mercedes.
I think people who underestimate what Tesla can and will accomplish have seen American companies outsource things so much for so long that they have forgotten how we used to lead the world with innovation and manufacturing, as this is what Tesla is doing.
To: WEBSRFR:
Sir, your reputation precedes you, to the point where I really don't believe anyone here will waste their time reading your posts.
Have a nice day!
I am glad you got the point I made about throwing rocks and living in a glass house, based on Mercedes' history of not fixing catastrophic issues with their engines and transmissions.
Tesla has already learned from this experience and now when I login to my Tesla account, there is an option to escalate any unresolved matter directly with tesla executives at Fremont. I've also seen the VP of Tesla global sales and service personally monitor the Tesla forums and provide assistance to customers.
Tesla is not perfect but the thing they excel at is learning, innovating, and doing what they do better.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Came across this pic and I'm thinking there could be a 2019 A8 e-tron plugin hybrid in this color in my future. Seems as though the S560e won't be offered with 4matic, which for me personally opens up the door to the A8, though a S500 is still a possibility.
Came across this pic and I'm thinking there could be a 2019 A8 e-tron plugin hybrid in this color in my future. Seems as though the S560e won't be offered with 4matic, which for me personally opens up the door to the A8, though a S500 is still a possibility.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by RJC
Looks like the current body style, no?
Yes the body itself is pretty darn similar to the current model. The single most noticeable exterior change is the grille, followed by the headlights. Yet the overall exterior I find handsome enough.
Changes inside are more obvious. But if I get it, I wouldn't be getting it because the exterior styling is amazing and special and a wholesale change from the current car...it isn't. I'd be getting it because I need one hybrid/ICE in the family (for the near term at least, until charging infrastructure improves markedly for distance travel in pure EVs), because I want AWD in a hybrid (which it looks like the W222 FL won't offer) and because I want advanced semi-autonomous driving capabilities.
On the latter score I think the 2019 A8 will be leagues ahead of the 2019 W222 below 38 mph (i.e., in traffic). Above that speed, it remains to be seen, but I suspect Audi may well come out better than MB, in that timeframe.
Yes the body itself is pretty darn similar to the current model. The single most noticeable exterior change is the grille, followed by the headlights. Yet the overall exterior I find handsome enough.
Changes inside are more obvious. But if I get it, I wouldn't be getting it because the exterior styling is amazing and special and a wholesale change from the current car...it isn't. I'd be getting it because I need one hybrid/ICE in the family (for the near term at least, until charging infrastructure improves markedly for distance travel in pure EVs), because I want AWD in a hybrid (which it looks like the W222 FL won't offer) and because I want advanced semi-autonomous driving capabilities.
On the latter score I think the 2019 A8 will be leagues ahead of the 2019 W222 below 38 mph (i.e., in traffic). Above that speed, it remains to be seen, but I suspect Audi may well come out better than MB, in that timeframe.
We also have a new loaded 2017 Q7 in the household (waited a year for this thing)...we unfortunately have found Audi does not stand behind their products like MB does, this may be due to the emissions scandal costing billions, but the consumer should not be made to suffer because of it. This may be our first and last Audi.
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
Originally Posted by RJC
We also have a new loaded 2017 Q7 in the household (waited a year for this thing)...we unfortunately have found Audi does not stand behind their products like MB does, this may be due to the emissions scandal costing billions, but the consumer should not be made to suffer because of it. This may be our first and last Audi.
I have heard that as well, about Audi being very slow to address consumer complaints. In late 2014, right before I ordered my 2015 S550, I drove a new A8. The ride was the first that killed it for me. Coming out of a 2013 S550, the A8 ride just didn't compare. There are many things I like about the A8, but the ride and comfort is what you feel in the seat of your pants every day and for me, it just needs to be the best.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by RJC
We also have a new loaded 2017 Q7 in the household (waited a year for this thing)...we unfortunately have found Audi does not stand behind their products like MB does, this may be due to the emissions scandal costing billions, but the consumer should not be made to suffer because of it. This may be our first and last Audi.
I'd be curious to hear what issues you had. In my experience MB is far from perfect itself (see post #82 in this thread).
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Streamliner
I have heard that as well, about Audi being very slow to address consumer complaints. In late 2014, right before I ordered my 2015 S550, I drove a new A8. The ride was the first that killed it for me. Coming out of a 2013 S550, the A8 ride just didn't compare. There are many things I like about the A8, but the ride and comfort is what you feel in the seat of your pants every day and for me, it just needs to be the best.
The 2019 A8 has an optional active suspension. But it remains to be seen just what the ride will be like and how much it will cost. In C&D's words:
The 48-volt circuit also feeds the A8’s active suspension, the first production realization of a promise we’ve eagerly awaited since Bose built a bunny-hopping Lexus LS400 prototype in the early ’00s. While the means are different here, the end result is the same. With the optional equipment, the A8 can lift a wheel over a bump or drive a force through the suspension to raise the body relative to the wheel.
A fist-sized electric motor at each corner acts through a strain-wave gear with a reduction ratio of roughly 200:1, a torsion bar, a titanium torsion tube, and a lever arm to impart up to 811 lb-ft of torque to compress or extend the suspension. When tasked with improving ride quality, the motors can reduce the force conveyed into the cabin and lift the body slightly prior to impact to increase the suspension travel over a bump. Working to improve handling, the system counteracts body roll. Under normal conditions, the active suspension takes inputs from the camera mounted behind the windshield, wheel-position sensors at each corner, and body-mounted accelerometers.
Speaking of technological leaps, if the corner-mounted radars detect an imminent side impact, the suspension motors lift the near side of the body by 3.1 inches to better direct the forces through the cross-car beams in the vehicle’s floor. The active suspension system replaces the traditional anti-roll bar and results in a net weight gain of roughly 110 pounds. It works in concert with adaptive dampers and air springs that further expand the A8’s ride and handling bandwidth.-source
I'd be curious to hear what issues you had. In my experience MB is far from perfect itself (see post #82 in this thread).
My experience with MB for the last 25 years has been very good when it comes to them standing behind their product. Yes, they are not perfect, but their actions (not words) in dealing with me have been quite good. Audi right out of the gate has been very difficult, refusing to address obvious defects that do not exist on other similarly equipped vehicles like ours. I can't get into the specifics with Audi at this time, but be forewarned.
08-16-2017, 07:01 PM
