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Nitro Fill Dry Air.. Let the discussions begin.

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Nitro Fill Dry Air.. Let the discussions begin.

 
Old 02-12-2019, 03:20 PM
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Nitro Fill Dry Air.. Let the discussions begin.

Honestly I have the following question for DIY'ers.
If one were to purchase a Good Air Compressor with integrated dryer. Is that not the same as Nitro fill.
My basic understanding is that Moisture is what causes the tire Air fluctuations. So, remove moisture = Nitro My theory, Nitro systems cost thousands of dollars and a "Cartridge" needs to be replaced every 2 or so years to maintain the machine.
Hmmmm… So, if I fill a tire with extremely dry air, no extreme expansion / contraction due to water vapor heating up and expanding and contracting when cool....

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...ogen-in-tires/
[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.5)]it expands rapidly and unpredictably.[/COLOR]
CALIIFORNIA AIR TOOLS 30020DCADC
2.0 HP (Rated/Running)





30 Gallon ASME Steel Air Tank[COLOR=left=#757575] [/COLOR]"NEW" Air Dryer Cartridge System - Up to 98% Dry Air
6.40 CFM @ 40 PSI [COLOR=left=#757575] [/COLOR]5.30 CFM @ 90 PSI
110 Volts / 60 Hertz / Single Phase

=leftThe CALIFORNIA AIR TOOLS 30020DCADC Ultra Quiet, Ultra Dry Oil-Free Air Compressor with Air Drying System is designed to be one of the quietest 2.0 Hp air compressors in the industry having only 70 decibels of sound


So, if you purchase a very amaizing / quiet air compressor with storage as in the
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jewURptFH-4

Then connect the following
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F714BBX/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F714BBX/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

You now have a Nitro Fill System......

Last edited by Nice Ride; 02-13-2019 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:50 PM
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not the same.
no need for nitrogen filler tires as waste of money.

Variation in tire pressure comes from temp changes and air leakage from tire.
leakage occurs whther nitrogen or air.

What nitrogen is supposed to do is have less rise in PSI as tire warms.
Great if you are a F1 racer and can feel difference of 1/2 psi.

If you google enough you can read both sides of this debate for about a year....
I guess you figured I am on the cheap side and normal air.
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Old 02-12-2019, 03:53 PM
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one thing to think about..

when they mounted those tires did they do so in a NITROGEN filled room with some guy on 02 breathing machine?
nope..
so the tire had all sorts of normal air in it when the beads were set...then pressurized with N2.

again crazy for normal person... we have been fine with compressed air for 100 years...
save ya money.
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:12 PM
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The math and physics:

a) dry gasses expand and contract linearly with temperature
b) a wet gas is a dry gas with water vapor in it
c) water vapor pressure is temperature dependent,
d) but water vapor pressure is not linear in its temperature dependence.
e) as water vapor gets close to the boiling point its pressure rises dramatically.
f) this is a problem on vehicles where the tires get above 200ºF
g) if your tires lasted 10 years, the water may accelerate the decomposition of the rubber.
g) road cars seldom have tire temperatures greater than 150ºF
h) our tires rarely last 3 years let alone 10.

Thus, I put nitrogen in tires that go on race tracks, and I am happy to put std air in my road going tires.
If someone wants to put nitrogen in my road going tires for free it's fine with me.
If someone wants to put nitrogen in my road going tires for $$$ I will tell them to take a flying ***k
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ygmn View Post
one thing to think about..

when they mounted those tires did they do so in a NITROGEN filled room with some guy on 02 breathing machine?
nope..
so the tire had all sorts of normal air in it when the beads were set...then pressurized with N2.

again crazy for normal person... we have been fine with compressed air for 100 years...
save ya money.
Forgetting cost and to do or not do. I am questioning Nitrogen vs. Air with little or no moisture. If my theory is correct, the entire industry is a Hoax in the Mystery Nitrogen Machine. So, what exactly is a Nitrogen Machine. i believe it is a Air Compressor, with a storage tank and a Dryer to remove moisture. The machines cost well over 15K. All I am saying is I believe it is nothing more than a good compressor with a good air dryer system attached to remove moisture. No Moisture, minimum or no fluctuation in air pressure compared to a compressor filling tires at a gas station with tons of moisture in the hoses...…

I had a Nitro Fill on my Escalade in 2009. It has nothing to do with ride quality with the exception of tire pressure fluctuation. Since I see all Seasons, I did notice the air fluctuation in the winter was minimal. When they do a NITRO FILL, the unit lets all the air out of the tires, then does a NITRO fill, at this point the Nitrogen (moisture) content is still not high enough in a tire, so it may only be 80% in the 1st pass, then the machine once again lets all the air out of the tires and fills a second time ( Hence my theory, removing more moisture and filling with more dry moisture free air. ). This should bring the Nitrogen up above 90%, a third drain and fill should bring it up and over 95%, assuming the Machine is working. They actually make a small tester to check the Nitrogen content. My belief is this tester is nothing more than checking the moisture content (Oxygen/Other gasses)

Last edited by Nice Ride; 02-12-2019 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:48 AM
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Cannot get all the air out of the tire impossible - if they did the tread would be sucked down to the inside of the rim and ruin tire is my guess.

I have never heard of this mystery N2 machine - Sorry
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ygmn View Post
Cannot get all the air out of the tire impossible - if they did the tread would be sucked down to the inside of the rim and ruin tire is my guess.
My race prep shop uses a strap around the tire to do just about what you say, compress the tire--and they do it 3 times: fill to 50 PSI, release air and tighten strap, repeat 3 times; finally adjusting to 35 PSI.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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but there is still regular air in the tire.

TO complete fill with 100% N2.
you need vacuum chamber like NASA has....
Throw tire inside on wheel bead not set yet.
Then evacuate chamber... as low as NASA can go which is about as low as you can go (still some air in there but negligible)
then in your Space suit set bead with N2 pressure line. and fill to about 5psi.

Now slowly allow chamber back to earth so tire does not blow up.
Recheck pressure as would be about 14 to 15 Psi higher then when in vacuum.
Complete fill....

Now do not unseat bead again....
my point being is no matter what you have atmosphere inside your tire unless you seat bead & fill it on the space station.

so N2 is waste of $$$ but some sleep better paying for it.

Just fill with clean dry air from your little nail gun compressor and all is good.

Take about a 20 to 30 F degree change in temp for you to notice 2-3 psi change in tire pressure. (depending on tire size)
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:13 PM
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If I remember my chemistry--the air we breath is 70%+/- nitrogen.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ygmn View Post
but there is still regular air in the tire.
Let us see how much:

Put tire on rim: inside there is 0 PSI above 14.2 PSI atmospheric pressure and its 100% air.
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is (100%)*14/(14+50) = 21% air
Deflate tire back to 0 PSI inside (14PSI atmosphere--still 21%)
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is 21%*14/(14+50) = 4.7%
Deflater tire back to 0 PSI inside
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is 4.7%*14/(14+50) = 1.07%

So, there is some air, but 99% of the water vapor is now gone.
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:54 PM
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Air is mixture ratios is based on volume not pressure.
Not sure what your math is proving.
Since the pressure inside would be based on the density of the gas inside and temp of inside and outside of tire.

So you need to calc starting volume when tire is strapped toght to wheel and there will be some volume of gas in there unless they use a vacuum pump but if they do that the bead witll unseat hence there is some air in there. Then measure how much N2 they pump in to raise pressure to whatever.
Roll tire to mix air and calc new gas ratio.
Let this gas out.
Squeeze tire down again.
Repeat many times.
What do they charge?

Also since there is and always be some air inside the tire in some nook or cranny or where the wheel is not flat.
Next time you have flat tire try and push outside tread to inside wheel and not have any gaps.

Heck cannot do with bike tire unless it has a brand new tube that is empty to start for most part.



I mean where is valve stem on top, side, bottom?
Might have impact on what comes out.

Just not worth the hassle or money is all my point is for normal driven cars heck even track cars.

It was a gimmick to sell something to people - N2 fills $20 or whatever.
Not as popular now as it was years ago as people read up on it.

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Old 02-13-2019, 04:57 PM
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PS.
Most good tire shops comporessor systems have very good water separators and or dryers to remove the water vapor from the compressed air.
So it is not such a big deal.

I mean even MB in owners manual says tire pressure when you drive can increase Ithink up to 5 psi due to tire temps.
just not that big of a deal for street driving and street tires.
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Old 02-13-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ygmn View Post
Air is mixture ratios is based on volume not pressure.
Not sure what your math is proving.
Since the pressure inside would be based on the density of the gas inside and temp of inside and outside of tire.
Air has a density of 1.225 Kg/m^3 at STP
Nitrogen has a density of 1.205 Kg/m^3 at STP
A difference of only 2%

So you need to calc starting volume when tire is strapped toght to wheel and there will be some volume of gas in there unless they use a vacuum pump but if they do that the bead witll unseat hence there is some air in there. Then measure how much N2 they pump in to raise pressure to whatever.
When the tire is seated, these is atmospheric pressure inside the tire. That is the 14 PSI I talked about.
We then added 50 PSI (measured on the gauge) to this and used (14+50) as the amount of "stuff"inside the tire.
I am neglecting the growth of the tire due to pressure inside, but this is small, nonetheless.

Roll tire to mix air and calc new gas ratio.
Let this gas out.
Squeeze tire down again.
Repeat many times.
What do they charge?
You are right, I only accounted for the tire returning to 0 gauge pressure not being strapped smaller.
This will make the air inside be significantly less! after rerolling the calculations.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch Alsup View Post
Let us see how much:

Put tire on rim: inside there is 0 PSI above 14.2 PSI atmospheric pressure and its 100% air.
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is (100%)*14/(14+50) = 21% air
Deflate tire back to 0 PSI inside (14PSI atmosphere--still 21%)
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is 21%*14/(14+50) = 4.7%
Deflater tire back to 0 PSI inside
Fill tire to 50 PSI and now the ratio is 4.7%*14/(14+50) = 1.07%

So, there is some air, but 99% of the water vapor is now gone.
Ah, you get the idea...
I want to know what and how they create Nitrogen and two, is not using a compressor with 98% dry air the same result / effect. No or extremely low moisture = Stable tire pressures since the moisture is what causes the PSI fluctuations. Heat, moisture expands, PSI increases, cool, moisture contracts, PSI decreases.

Again, it was just one of those things that make you go Hmmmm….
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ygmn View Post
Air is mixture ratios is based on volume not pressure.
Not sure what your math is proving.
Since the pressure inside would be based on the density of the gas inside and temp of inside and outside of tire.

So you need to calc starting volume when tire is strapped toght to wheel and there will be some volume of gas in there unless they use a vacuum pump but if they do that the bead witll unseat hence there is some air in there. Then measure how much N2 they pump in to raise pressure to whatever.
Roll tire to mix air and calc new gas ratio.
Let this gas out.
Squeeze tire down again.
Repeat many times.
What do they charge?

Also since there is and always be some air inside the tire in some nook or cranny or where the wheel is not flat.
Next time you have flat tire try and push outside tread to inside wheel and not have any gaps.

Heck cannot do with bike tire unless it has a brand new tube that is empty to start for most part.



I mean where is valve stem on top, side, bottom?
Might have impact on what comes out.

Just not worth the hassle or money is all my point is for normal driven cars heck even track cars.

It was a gimmick to sell something to people - N2 fills $20 or whatever.
Not as popular now as it was years ago as people read up on it.
Again, the discussion was just questioning the process / result / equipment. Take worth it to do it or not out of the equation. Aircraft / Race Cars etc. I understand.
Boy this thread must me making some readers nuts..

As Mitch was saying ( I think), if you fill a tire and say it has a moisture content of 10% at say 45 PSI, then you deflate to 0 PSI, yes, there is still air and moisture left in the tire. Now you fill again with 98% dry air to 45 PSI, the moisture content will be less, If you do this 2 or 3 times, you would have removed most of the moisture, hence having a tire with 45 PSI, minimum moisture/water vapor. Since there is little to no water vapor to expand when the tire heats up, the PSI would only increase possibly 1 to 2 PSI. The same tire with more moisture/water vapor under the same conditions will increase possibly 2 to 5.
Now when you cool the tire down (Winter), the moisture will condense, lowering the PSI, the above theory in reverse.

So yes, I agree with you that having a compressor with a good Air Dryer attached is essentially the same as a NITRO filling system. I don't know of any shops that actually would waste the money for equipment for general shop air, would not make sense. The worst think you can do is fill your tire from a Gas Station, the amount of water (moisture) in the hose is nuts. This water is now in the tire causing the Rust to the internal Rim, and extreme pressure swings.

Last edited by Nice Ride; 02-13-2019 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 02-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by greasykid View Post
If I remember my chemistry--the air we breath is 70%+/- nitrogen.
The Air humans breath is made up of about 78% Nitrogen
21% Oxygen and 1% carbon dioxide and argon. Trace gasses include krypton, methane, neon, helium and hydrogen.



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Old 02-14-2019, 01:24 AM
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Cool, I feel like I'm in chemistry lesson
To me , nitro is like ceramic coating to a car , not tremendously necessary but could help set the owner's mind at ease .
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Ride View Post
Ah, you get the idea...
I want to know what and how they create Nitrogen and two,
Industrial Nitrogen is done by cryogenically cooling air and having the gasses go liquid at certain temperatures (gas column) it is them returned to gas and pressure bottled.

is not using a compressor with 98% dry air the same result / effect.
Essentially, yes.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:33 PM
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My 1919 Ford Model T is 100 years old this year and plain air in the tires works just fine!


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Old 02-14-2019, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BenzV12 View Post
Cool, I feel like I'm in chemistry lesson
To me , nitro is like ceramic coating to a car , not tremendously necessary but could help set the owner's mind at ease .
Well, my local shop is top rated, they give me a coupon for Blinker Fluid.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitch Alsup View Post
Industrial Nitrogen is done by cryogenically cooling air and having the gasses go liquid at certain temperatures (gas column) it is them returned to gas and pressure bottled.



Essentially, yes.
What smoke a mirrors the industry has had for so many years...
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