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The debate over "self-help" and other alt medicine

Old 03-29-2011, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Glasgow Gold View Post
No. Read your own article. The few drug makers willing to still play in this difficult market have huge R&D costs. Revenue does not equal profits. Even if it did (certainly some line items in the vaccine business will show a profit), how did the government "co-conspirators" benefit from this? Were they paid under the table to approve a drug that they shouldn't have?

What's more, there's a very serious reason that there are only a few players left in the vaccine business. As has been discussed in these pages before, the tort lawyers nearly ended the manufacture of vaccines with all kinds of frivolous litigation that only lined their own pockets. A exclusive damages pool had to be created to allow the vultures to feed, bringing back a few drug makers to avoid a tragic resurgence in these deadly diseases.

Very strange to me that conservatives are fine with runaway tort litigation when it comes to vaccines.
I'm not satisfied with illegitimate tort litigation. That is as much a problem as anything else, if not more.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
I'm not satisfied with illegitimate tort litigation. That is as much a problem as anything else, if not more.


I'm trying to picture the tort reform bill that you would draft.

Tort litigation against vaccine makers/big pharma/doctors is ok, but tort litigation against everyone else must be limited?
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Glasgow Gold View Post


I'm trying to picture the tort reform bill that you would draft.

Tort litigation against vaccine makers/big pharma/doctors is ok, but tort litigation against everyone else must be limited?
Maybe you should stop assuming things you haven't seen me post? No offense. I'm not above necessary medical procedures (surgery, urgent care, etc). I'm not even necessarily above useful and properly used vaccines. I am against over vaccination and over medication in every case, I would expect you would be also...considering the level and severity of side effects known.
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Old 03-29-2011, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
Maybe you should stop assuming things you haven't seen me post? No offense. I'm not above necessary medical procedures (surgery, urgent care, etc). I'm not even necessarily above useful and properly used vaccines. I am against over vaccination and over medication in every case, I would expect you would be also...considering the level and severity of side effects known.
Just trying to understand what's left from right in your paradigm - nothing personal at all.

Again, you are asserting some notion of right vs. wrong, what's legit vs. illegit tort litigation, what's over-vaccination/medication vs. what isn't.

Why take offense to being asked to specify?
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Old 04-05-2011, 02:36 AM
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a car that confirms all your prejudices
My wife and our paediatrician mentioned this site yesterday:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

It provides information on the number of preventable diseases and preventable deaths in the US since Jenny McCarthy started campaigning against vaccination.
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
I am against over vaccination and over medication in every case
So which vaccines are you against, exactly?
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hkmb View Post
My wife and our paediatrician mentioned this site yesterday:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

It provides information on the number of preventable diseases and preventable deaths in the US since Jenny McCarthy started campaigning against vaccination.
That website is pure speculation.

Originally Posted by Nola View Post
So which vaccines are you against, exactly?
All of them.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hkmb View Post
My wife and our paediatrician mentioned this site yesterday:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

It provides information on the number of preventable diseases and preventable deaths in the US since Jenny McCarthy started campaigning against vaccination.
What an excellent web-site. Thanks for the link.

Hmmm, who to trust more on medical issues, Jenny or the professional medical community?

I don't get how this is really a choice for anyone!
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:39 PM
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And there you have it folks. The man makes no sense. Can't argue with that, literally.

Originally Posted by RedG View Post
I am against over vaccination
Originally Posted by RedG View Post
All of them.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:42 PM
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I DON'T COME HERE ANYMORE
Originally Posted by hkmb View Post
My wife and our paediatrician mentioned this site yesterday:

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com

It provides information on the number of preventable diseases and preventable deaths in the US since Jenny McCarthy started campaigning against vaccination.
I couldn't find the link to her nudes-a little help
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rockjock View Post
I couldn't find the link to her nudes-a little help
The one thing Jenny is actually good at wasn't included on the site at all - she must be really disappointed!
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nola View Post
And there you have it folks. The man makes no sense. Can't argue with that, literally.
Gee, it is good you have a substantive reason as to why you can't over vaccinate people. Would you care to explain your reasoning?

Originally Posted by Glasgow Gold View Post
What an excellent web-site. Thanks for the link.

Hmmm, who to trust more on medical issues, Jenny or the professional medical community?

I don't get how this is really a choice for anyone!
It is nice that you marginalize all the other educated professionals who do not support vaccines by only commenting on.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/doctors_...t_vaccines.htm

Oh wait...we should (based on yours and Nola's opinions) stuff vaccines down our childrens' throats and the consequences be damned!
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
Gee, it is good you have a substantive reason as to why you can't over vaccinate people. Would you care to explain your reasoning?
I am trying to understand you.... you say that you are not necessarilly above vaccination, and that you don't support over-vaccination. What I understand from that is that there is some level of vaccination that is actually acceptable to you, hence my question. I guess I was wrong in my understanding, because now you say you support zero vaccines.

About consequences, I trust that they are evaluated by the FDA or EMA and the formidable network of clinical trials. Those graphs showing incidence figures are quite compelling.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:00 PM
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Besides the fact that no one here can actually prove that any vaccine is better than a placebo.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:07 PM
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We don't need to. Thousands of really smart people spend years of their lives doing so. Most even write about it.

2003 May 16;21(17-18):2003-14.

Systematic review of the effects of pertussis vaccines in children.
Jefferson T, Rudin M, DiPietrantonj C.

Health Reviews Ltd., Via Adige 28a, 00061 Anguillara Sabazia, Rome, Italy. [email protected]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706690
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
Gee, it is good you have a substantive reason as to why you can't over vaccinate people. Would you care to explain your reasoning?



It is nice that you marginalize all the other educated professionals who do not support vaccines by only commenting on.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/doctors_...t_vaccines.htm

Oh wait...we should (based on yours and Nola's opinions) stuff vaccines down our childrens' throats and the consequences be damned!
We have talked about the risks of vaccines many times. There is no need to dig for obscure Scandinavian practitioners of homeopathy for the data - it's all on the CDC's own web-site.

I'm still looking for "educated professionals" in the anti-vaccine movement to produce new, real, scientific data. The last prominent one the movement thought they had, Andrew Wakefield, produced a much publicized study linking the MMR vaccine and autism. It was a fraud. Wakefield has since lost his license to practice medicine in the UK. He is a quack who was trying to run a financial scam with the tort lawyers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

In a BMJ follow-up article on 11 January 2011,[15] Deer said that based upon documents he obtained under Freedom of information legislation,[79] Wakefield—in partnership with the father of one of the boys in the study—had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination scare that would profit from new medical tests and "litigation driven testing".[16][51] The Washington Post reported that Deer said that Wakefield predicted he "could make more than $43 million a year from diagnostic kits" for the new condition, autistic enterocolitis.[79] According to Deer's report in BMJ, the ventures, Immunospecifics Biotechnologies Ltd and Carmel Healthcare Ltd—named after Wakefield’s wife, failed after Wakefield's superiors at University College London's medical school gave him a two-page letter that said:

"We remain concerned about a possible serious conflict of interest between your academic employment by UCL, and your involvement with Carmel ... This concern arose originally because the company's business plan appears to depend on premature, scientifically unjustified publication of results, which do not conform to the rigorous academic and scientific standards that are generally expected."[15].
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:09 PM
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http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/n...bowel-problems

Feb. 13, 2007 -- The FDA today announced that 28 U.S. babies reportedly developed a potentially deadly bowel problem after getting the RotaTeq vaccine.
The babies developed intussusception, a serious and potentially life-threatening condition in which the intestine gets blocked or twisted.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:11 PM
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http://www.naturalnews.com/027017_HP...ine_blood.html

Just as NaturalNews has consistently reported, the vaccine has caused an extraordinary number of adverse side effects (http://www.naturalnews.com/026722_G...). And now comes word from the JAMA report that the HPV vaccine has unexpectedly caused episodes of fainting and life-threatening blood clots. In fact, in a statement to the media, these events were called "disproportional" -- meaning these side effects are anything but rare. What's more, among the 12,424 adverse reaction reports about the HPV vaccine, 772 (6.2 percent) were serious and included 32 reports of death.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:13 PM
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5253431.shtml

This raises questions about the CDC’s recommendation that the series of shots be given to girls as young as 11-years old. “If we vaccinate 11 year olds and the protection doesn’t last... we’ve put them at harm from side effects, small but real, for no benefit,” says Dr. Harper. “The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed, unless the protection lasts for at least 15 years, and over 70% of all sexually active females of all ages are vaccinated.” She also says that enough serious side effects have been reported after Gardasil use that the vaccine could prove riskier than the cervical cancer it purports to prevent. Cervical cancer is usually entirely curable when detected early through normal Pap screenings.

Dr. Scott Ratner and his wife, who’s also a physician, expressed similar concerns as Dr. Harper in an interview with CBS News last year. One of their teenage daughters became severely ill after her first dose of Gardasil. Dr. Ratner says she’d have been better off getting cervical cancer than the vaccination. “My daughter went from a varsity lacrosse player at Choate to a chronically ill, steroid-dependent patient with autoimmune myofasciitis. I’ve had to ask myself why I let my eldest of three daughters get an unproven vaccine against a few strains of a nonlethal virus that can be dealt with in more effective ways.”
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:16 PM
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http://www.judicialwatch.org/gardasil

Special Reports

Documents Uncovered

Litigation Documents

Press Releases

News Stories, Reports and Informational Links

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Old 04-05-2011, 07:17 PM
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Like I said, stuff your children with it, I won't.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:17 PM
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This concern arose originally because the company's business plan appears to depend on premature, scientifically unjustified publication of results, which do not conform to the rigorous academic and scientific standards that are generally expected
That's a valid point that goes both ways. Scientific community earns crap, and most of their reward seems to come from making publications, because publications invite grants, so of course there are bad apples that publish bad science. However, the publication process is many times LESS rigourous than the clinical trial process. In fact, many times the detractors point to failed clinical trials as evidence of how evil drugs are, when it is precisely the opposite: Every drug that fails is evidence that the process works as intended.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RedG View Post
Like I said, stuff your children with it, I won't.
You over react. You can search back my explanations on risk/benefit when approving drugs. But even leaving that aside, show us what you have against the following vaccines:

Measles
Mumps
Rubella
Diphteria
Tetanus
Pertussis
Hep A
Hep B
Polio
Varicella

You can please look up possible side effects and the chance for those, and also look up disease symptoms/consequences and the chance for those when there is no vaccine. Then you can make an objective decision for each vaccine not based on fear.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nola View Post
You over react. You can search back my explanations on risk/benefit when approving drugs. But even leaving that aside, show us what you have against the following vaccines:

Measles
Mumps
Rubella
Diphteria
Tetanus
Pertussis
Hep A
Hep B
Polio
Varicella

You can please look up possible side effects and the chance for those, and also look up disease symptoms/consequences and the chance for those when there is no vaccine. Then you can make an objective decision for each vaccine not based on fear.
This has morphed into a side effects discussion. That's a heck of a lot more productive IMHO than some of the usual vaccine denier advocacy of homeopathy and claims of government/big pharma conspiracies.

But, it's still throwing the baby out with the bath water. Risks/harm without vaccine are generally going to be much more severe than with vaccine.

Folks have been spoiled by the success of these vaccines and the resulting herd immunity. As a result, they are feeling a false sense of security until the reality of a crumbling herd immunity hits home a little more.

The tragedy is that those most likely to suffer are children who are not able to participate in this debate, look at the data, etc. Even if they could, parents grinding the anti-vaccine ax would override any rational analysis.

No different than the faith healers who end up on trial for homicide.
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