Skylaw

I have been away from MBWorld for a time, but thought that this would be useful.

My dealer informed me, and MBUSA has now confirmed, that there will be no more nav map updates for NTG 3.5 (MY 2010-2013 S-Class and CL). The last release was BQ 6 46 0341, v.14.0, for calendar years 2015-2016.

The MB nav map update site for MY 2007-2009 S-Class and CL indicates that v.15.0, BQ 6 46 0340, also covering calendar years 2015-2016 is the last release for NTG 3.0 systems.

Personally, I find that infuriating. V.14.0 was the only update for NTG 3.5 after the 2013 model was produced. Its road data dates from 2014, and it contains errors that were a problem even when the discs came out (among other things I am constantly told to take an exit on I-275 in Tampa where none exists; they were detours during road construction). Cutting W221 and CL owners off after just one update is simply ridiculous, and will have me looking at other brands for my next car purchase.

The message for NTG 3.5 owners from MBUSA said specifically:

"We can confirm that there will not be additional navigation updates for the NTG3.5.

"We appreciate the time you have taken to share your thoughts We welcome your feedback as it is invaluable in our on-going efforts to provide a product that meets the demands of our customers.

"While we cannot promise this will change in the future, it is comments such as yours that help us to provide feedback to the appropriate individuals within our organization, so they can consider improving upon the features available for our products."

That language suggests that perhaps with enough feedback from W221 and CL owners, perhaps they could reconsider and at least one more update might be released. I note that for the '05-'06 W220s, map updates were released covering dates through 2014, eight years after the last W220 was produced. Here, we get three. That is a sorry decision by Mercedes, and we owners should say so. The email address is support@mbusa.com

So, for newer maps we are left with workarounds. There are several ways to get smart phone data displayed on your COMAND screen. That can include the maps, including those with turn-by-turn instructions, often used in iPhones, Android phones, and iPads.

One such solution was presented by BW member hilarushi at https://www.benzworld.org/forums/aud...es-comand.html - it is a wireless solution using the phone as a wi-fi hot spot transmitting to a wi-fi rebroadcaster (such as Anycast) with an HDMI output that in turns feeds into a device that converts the HDMI output to analog RCA output, , in turn feeding into the MMI aux inputs that can be selected and displayed on the COMAND screen. One would have to use that somewhat balky setup with a Video In Motion device (I would recommend the one by NAVIKS, having used one for a brief time). The setup can be used with either iPhone or Android.

A second method is wired; using an Apple Lightning to HDMI output cable (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/M...5c5f5782896ea6), one that then connects via an HDMI cabe to the same HDMI-to-analog device used in the wi-fi connection above. Selection of the RCA video is again made on the "Video" menu of COMAND. I do not know if iPhones having 30-pin output will work as well, but there are a number of HDMI adapters for various Apple devices. I have not explored similar cables for Android.

Both methods transmit audio together with the smart phone map display, so you can get turn-by-turn instructions. Neither method offers nav data on the multifunction display. Both methods involve a bundle of unsightly wires that would need to be hidden, and require a power source. Frankly, I would only use such a setup if I were traveling in an area I am totally unfamiliar with, and I'd be tempted to do it just using an iPad instead of using all that stuff.

Thanks loads, Mercedes! I will certainly keep this lack of support in mind the next time I go car shopping.

steveb9771

The honorable thing for Mercedes to do if they are not interested in providing further updates is to release detailed documentation about the format of the navigation disks which would allow others that might be interested to develop newer maps.

EasyPhil

This is something that the company that creates the mapping software could do but they won't because it's not profitable.

Skylaw

I can't address the profitability for HERE! maps, which manufactures the discs - but they already have the nav data - they're using it in newer cars. They have the software necessary to make the discs load and work in NTG 3.5 COMAND units. There is NO investment in developing anything new. I believe the problem is with Mercedes dealerships and the outrageous gouging that some of them resorted to with NTG 3.5 updates. Mercedes owners may have resources, and like to drive their cars - but no one likes being taken for a ride.

With NTG 3.5, MB added an anti-piracy feature which used the disc set and the VIN to generate a code unique to that particular car. One could only use the disc set with that car; and you needed the generated code to load it. Generating the code required dealer equipment, and loading the data took over two hours.

I had a bad experience with one dealer, updating my 2010 S550. I bought the disc from the dealership and paid the $249 plus tax. Then the dealer tried to charge me an additional $250 to install it. However, when I questioned that with the parts department, the head of the department told me that the disc set was supposed to sell disc set $20 or so, and the $230 difference was applied to the license (i.e., getting the code that enabled installation); and the $230 was also to cover installation. It caused a row at the dealership; they ultimately charged me the $249 plus tax, "because I had been provided faulty information by an employee" (the Parts Dept, manager). That left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I never went back to that dealer (there were other, non-nav related problems with them as well).

The next time I needed service, I took the car to a newly-opened MB dealership, and I inquired about the cost of nav updates. They told me $249, which covered the cost of the disc set, the licensing fee (code), and installation. They told me that of that price, $20 was the price of the disc set, and that if MB set a different price for newer discs, the price would be adjusted to reflect it. They continued to verify that information every time I inquired. When I traded the MY '10 for the MY '13, they installed the newest disc (V.14.0) set as part of the deal, an once again confirmed the price as discussed.

I think $250 is in line with updates for other models. $500 is ridiculous! It is cheating the customer. As for the code generation scheme that lets them get away with it, my bet is that new update discs could be programmed to allow use of the prior code used with the car - the code is written on the box for my disc set. I don't believe the costs to produce the update would be frightfully high - but a fair price for the set would take care of the profitability angle. I guarantee you - I will be looking at other cars when buying again. Lincoln's new Continental drives very nicely, has great features (including a much better audio system that Mercedes - their THX certified system is the best I have heard on a production car), reasonably priced nav updates, and the dealerships treat you well. Unless MB changes its tune on this issue, my '13 is the last Benz I'll ever buy.

lionsfan54

Waze is better anyways

atikovi

I have a $150 Garmin that I can swap between my cars as well as rentals and has free lifetime updates.

Skylaw

Yes, I have those apps on my iPhone, and I have a Garmin unit that will no longer accept the updates I paid for (it has malfunctioned). Still, trying to look at a small screen on a phone or a Garmin device, or running wires all over the place to feed the video output from a smart phone to the COMAND screen is not the experience I bought when I chose Mercedes.

I understand that Mercedes will eventually not support old nav systems. However, why they have to do so with the W221 and CL models after only ONE update after the last production year is simply mind boggling, and is screwing their owners.

Not any more.

Polar Bear

Jason B

The only way to get anything done is to keep emailing. They will do it eventually.

steveb9771

The license number is unique based on your VIN. When you purchase a license, a unique code is generated for your VIN and the version of the map update DVD. Your vehicle will not load the disk if the license was generated for a different VIN.

This only applies to 2010 and newer vehicles.

Jason B

With how good hackers are etc, I can't believe someone hasn't found a way around this. Makes me laugh. A jailbreaker could prob hack this in no time. No way it's that hard. But I know nothing about that, lol. I just know nothing is impenetrable these days.

EasyPhil

What probably is happening is that the VIN is used to create an encrypted key by the dealer and the software decrypts the key with the VIN and allows the map to install. A hacker would need to know the encryption algorithm in order to crack it.

megacrazy

It would require quite a bit of work to hack something like this. It's not just maps, it's an entire operating system that boots and loads maps (linux). It's not impossible but the reward is way too little for all the work involved. Nobody will do it especially when you can simply upgrade your headunit to something more modern that possibly runs android.

Skylaw

UPDATE: After a month of trying, I did receive an updated response from Mercedes Customer Assistance today:

"I have confirmed with our product specialists that there is not a new update out for the NTG 3.5 systems, and we do not have knowledge of when an update will be released.

"Should you need to contact us via email in the future, please visit the www.MBUSA.com Contact Us page."

While that is a disappointing outcome, it does not seem to foreclose the possibility that another release could occur in the future. I suggest that MY 2010-2013 W221 (S-Class) and 2009-2014 W216 (CL Class) owners make such contact, and let them know of your interest in an update.

Jason B

You gotta keep writing if you want anything to ever get done. Keep writing. From different email accounts.

Ellton

Indeed. Maybe it would be possible to create an updated "v14.5" map disk with injected data from a newer W222 disk. The whole "authorisation / cracking" would be another topic but something tells me that it shouldn't be an issue for a dedicated cracker.

Someone will have to take a look at the DVD container and format used for the NTG3-3.5 and NTG 5 system.

Might be mistaken but I believe there was some software navigation forum that delved into the map nav data topics.

Jason B

I'm telling you, anything can be done, just need the right person. can't be harder than cracking iphones to jailbreak. They do it all the time when apple says it can't be.

Ellton

Will take a look at the structure if I manage to find the NTG 3.5 / NTG 5 / W222 images - there seems to be an online tool for NTG5

So far:
Update:

So after going through several forums in several languages it has become evident that NTG 3.5 info is actually quite hard to come by.

NTG 4 / 4.5 users managed to find a way to replace their internal HDDs (which were too small) with larger HDDs/SSDs to accomplish being able to use newer Nav DVDs that require more space.
Unlocking Pass protected HDD / re partitioning / reinstalling Nav Data via DVD onto new empty drive with HDD being relocked again by COMAND.
-possible to update map in comand NTG 4.5 without pincode with ece maps.

Upon first glance (without having data to inspect / compare) NTG 4 / 4.5 actually seem to be a close relatives to NTG 3/3.5 in terms of the way the COMAND Windows CE interface looks. Maybe the Nav Data for NTG 4/4.5 is structured in a similar way to NTG 3.5.

A forum that delves into such topics is *******. They would probably be the closest bet to making this work.

Wanted to take a brief look at the db files for the latest NTG 3 DVD but haven't found a way yet.

EasyPhil

I've had a chance to look at the structure of the 20 gig hard drive in NTG3 command unit. It has 4 QNX4 partitions:

Partition 1. 1 gig
Partition 2. 1 gig
Partition 3. 9 gig - Old maps: USA / Canada Version 3.0
Contents of config.nfm file

Partition 4. 9 gig - Current maps: USA / Canada Version 15.0
Contents of config.nfm file
This corresponds to the files contained on the update DVD for NTG3.

Jason B

So this means cracked the code to give up the latest update? haha

EasyPhil

Stay tuned...

Ellton

When I checked the NTG3 DVD I didn't find a way to look into the DB files.

One of the theories that I didn't get to test was that maybe some of these files just hold the current information (maps/locations etc). - dumb interchangable files.

How it is perceived by NTG3 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 is another matter. (the smaller files on the DVD are most likely some forms of install scripts and config data)

Injecting newer information files from 4/4.5 into 3 / 3.5 in that case would solve half the problem.

NTG 3.5 needs an activation code of sorts which apparently can be circumvented.

Another thought that came to mind is that maybe the interchangable (if that is really the case) dumb files come with more / and less data depending on which NTG they were made for.
Some cars had small HDDs so newer NTG DVDs didn't work . not because they were not compatible but because the internal car HDD was too small.

I would have hoped that it is similar in this case where only a small amount of hexing the data and activating it is required.

W222 and newer cars can load maps directly from the Daimler servers. Gradual installation is carried out whilst the car is driving. - they should really do something about the bandwidth speeds.
Maybe these newer map packages can be used. Or maybe they have to be stripped of excess data first. Maybe the format won't even match.
Best to obtain map packages that are closer to our NTG.

A lot of stumbling blocks and not enough expertise on my part.

Wish you luck EasyPhil!

Arrie

This is a little bit old thread but as I stumbled to it - Isn't there a law in the U.S. that a car maker must provide spare parts for a car for 10 years after the model year. For a 2013 model this would mean spare parts from MB should be available until end of 2023, and I think a navigation disk is a spare part as the car was made with the system.

pillowshot

Well they will still provide you with a navigation disk if you want one. It just won't be the most up to date version possible.

Also, unless I'm mistaken this only affects Ntg3.5 and onwards. If you have a prefacelift vehicle with Ntg3 you can still enjoy up to date maps.

BOTUS

I'm aligned, pretty sure must provide parts for 7 years if you want to sell cars in European market...

as the last w221's would have been sold in 2013 I can't understand why owners didn't kick off during a 3 year warranty period wanting their free 2016 maps. and then the rest want to pursue parts availability under the 7 to 10 year framework

NTG 3.5 map updates in Europe stopped in 2015 too (with speed limits after a firmware update on the last ones - and FYI the last cars got steering assist with the disctronic plus too)
oddly the NTG 3.0 carried on getting maps up to v17 (2019 to 2020) but they didn't release anything LY

for those that like to play these would be interesting:

1) as the mapping is much the same pretty sure it could be pushed on to NTG 3.5 units by someone clever.
2) speed limits ought to be another simple fix for units without it
3) speed camera warnings
3) postcode input of 7 digits ought to go from the 3.5 back on to the 3.0 system seems possible.... NTG 3.0 systems for the UK have a list that's NOT the one on the disc... and its not been updated since 2009 and stuck at 4 digit input. The reason it matters, in the UK the "zip code" (called 7 digit postcode) gets you to a specific address, rather than some where close as the rest of Europe use and is a far simpler way to input an address. Particularly as many people don't actually know the town they live in ! and incorrectly inform you of a road which doesn't exist in the town they claim to live in. With the postcode you just get it 100% right