SW20S

And you don’t realize that until you experience it in an excellent car. Not a Tesla.

js_cls

Exactly. Even an Ioniq6 feels so refined and hushed. EV’s can make economy cars so much nicer than they currently are. The only problem is they haven’t found a way to make EV’s affordable for the masses. The Ioniq6 is an excellent car, but it’d be even better if it was priced like a Sonata and not a 3-Series.

SW20S

They'll get there I'm sure

My only concern is when traveling. For day to day use it would be great, but travel is the X Factor.

js_cls

Agree, travel is indeed tough. Hopefully the Supercharger network opening will help.

SW20S

Doesn't sound like BMW is planning on being a part of that unfortunately...

MBNUT1

Thanks for mentioning the Ioniq6. Thinking I need to try one. I can tell you in certain settings (non noisey road surfaces) even our lowly Kia Niro EV is a nice car.

MBNUT1

I can state one thing for sure and that is there won't be any complaints about transmission shift quality (other than maybe a Taycan / Audi GT)

UrBusted

Wish I could've experienced it. They gave a Cayman GTS 4.0 instead since they don't have any Cayennes available for a while. Everyone rates the car a 9/10 or 10/10, I don't think I need to speak to how beautiful it sounds or how it drives. Only issue I see is that it still has the old Porsche infotainment system which will probably be upgraded in the facelift.

js_cls

I tested out the Limited top model, and really enjoyed it. Its very comfortable, quiet, and composed. Not a canyon carver, but a very nice daily driver with little road noise, a suspension that soaks up bumps even on large rims, and the best regenerative braking system in any EV I’ve driven with 4 different settings. The issue is, EV’s are still too expensive for the mass market. At $56k with AWD it has a lot of harder interior materials (luckily the areas you touch most have some texture/padding), and the sunroof is only available on the top trim. At that point, I would just stretch to an i4 or Polestar 2, even though the BMW doesn’t look as good as the Hyundai (weird times we live in where Hyundai’s look better than BMW’s).

I also drove the EV6 later that day, and found the extra ride height allows for suspension travel and more bounce when driving. The particular EV6 I drove as well had a vibration issue at highway speeds.

MBNUT1

Thanks again for the review. I agree on the pricing. Would only consider one with a significant discount to MSRP.

crabman

You don't love your dog because it sits, begs, rolls over, on command. You love it because of it's personality. Personality means something, it matters. Some people like engines. To me an electric drivetrain doesn't elevate the car, it diminishes the car. Now instead of something alive you've got an electric razor. A space heater. A blender.

Of course some blenders do work better than others, I'm not against them, everyone needs a tropical foo-foo drink now and then. But I never met a blender I loved. I never dreamt about owning one. I don't think back with nostalgia over the times we shared, can't even remember anything about them weeks after getting a new blender.

I've loved cars, dreamed about the next, and I remember every car I've owned. They're not all fond memories but man, lol, I've got some memories.

I had a Taycan Turbo for a few days. I've test driven most everything of interest. I like EVs within a defined window: They would make a good daily, and so long as you can always charge at home, they make good luxury cars. I'll own one soon enough I think. But I don't dream of the day. Imagine what it will be like to get behind the wheel and hear the engine come to life. It will be just like every other appliance I've owned, buy it, use it, don't care enough to remember it when it's gone.

I recognize this viewpoint is going to be in the minority and that it's strictly subjective, but I'd be lying if I said something else.

SW20S

I have been doing nothing but thinking of and watching videos of that i7 since I drove it, so I would challenge that EVs don’t have any personality.

superswiss

Interesting conundrum. I've long thought like crabman. EVs lacking a soul, however, I've started to nuance my opinion after driving the AMG EQE 53 on a road course in Austria earlier this year. The car had a personality. No it wasn't the sound, it was how it drove. To be honest, the vast majority of ICE cars out there don't really have much of a soul. Think economy boxes, Toyota Camry etc. They are largely forgettable cars. They get you from A to B reliably, but they don't make that journey particularly memorable. Calling it a personality is probably a good choice of words, because there are many different personalities and we like some, but dislike others.

MBNUT1

They are worse than not having much soul. A lot of them sound and feel like **** compared to an EV.

superswiss

That is true. Most people I know that went electric and like it come from one of these crap boxes. The EV they drive now offers performance they've never experienced in a car before, so it's not surprising that they are announcing to the world that they will never go back to an ICE.

A good example is one of my business partners. Until 2019 he was driving a 1990s something Lexus. Don't ask me which model, but it was one of the larger ones. He bought it new in his younger years with some money he made back then. He was never a car guy. He then got a ride in a friend's Model S and was hooked. Ended up buying a long range Model 3 and became an enthusiast. I keep making fun of him. He always keeps boasting how his car is faster than my AMG and makes fun of Mercedes. It's all in good spirit and we are having fun.

However, a few weeks ago after one of our company lunches, we left the parking lot together heading for the highway. He was behind me. Unbeknownst to me, he wanted to show me how he could keep up with me. The highway onramp had a sweeping 90+ degree turn and a long stretch before merging. Once the light turned green I proceeded onto the onramp in my usual spirited driving style going around that turn with some gusto, but not even close to the limit, then merging onto the highway, quickly zipping past other cars changing lanes to the fast lane and I was off. I was doing something like 85 when I remember looking back and he was way way back just about to merge. I had no idea he was actually trying to keep up with me. Next time we saw each other he was telling everybody that that's what he was trying to do, but just couldn't keep up with me. We had a good laugh. His Model 3 has similar power to my C63, but it is heavy and simply doesn't have the chassis and dynamics to keep up. He told me he already had to ease off around the sweeping turn. Needless to say, he's not boasting as much anymore . All comes down to what cars one has experienced before.

SW20S

I know lots of people who went EV from having other high end luxury cars and all are happy.

superswiss

Not saying there aren't. The high end luxury car segment is another one where an EV is better. It's completely silent and has usually even more sound insulation to keep out other noises that would be bothersome w/o an engine drowning them out and no transmission that needs to shift gears. Just ultimate silence and smoothness, and the extra weight doesn't matter one bit. I'm surprised it took RR this long to come out with an EV.

MBNUT1

Yeah EV's don't make great sports cars. Driven a Taycan RWD and it had good stick but you definitely could feel the weight.

js_cls

Agreed, I am all for EV's for commuters and luxury, but when it comes to sports cars or engagement behind the wheel, give me a good engine, transmission, exhaust, and chassis.

PEagle

I personnally do not understand the EV world and how "conventionnal" brands (i.e Merc, Ford, BMW, VW) can't compete with new comers the likes of Tesla and the chinese MG.

From what I read, the Tesla outrank any other brand on all segments and you need thrice to 5 times the price to even come close to the quality, power and range.

A car guy at work made the switch from ICE (320HP Series 3) to dual motor extended range model Y after having tried a lot of other EV models (hyundai ioniq 5, BMW I4/250kW, EQE 215kW) and vows only by Tesla now, and when he explains, I understand why.
He found no equivalent for his Tesla as the infotainment system in all other cars were terrible (worst offender being BMW), none was as powerful as the Tesla and given the price tag, the Tesla was the much better equiped one.

As for me, I'd like to have an Electric city dweller to replace our jack of all trade diesel car, but I can't find any within a reasonnable budget.

superswiss

Tesla has only been profitable since 2020. Before that they were burning through billions of venture capital and also received billions in tax breaks. The conventional car brands have to finance their R&D from their ICE sales and can't burn venture capital like it grows on trees. This has helped Tesla to establish themselves w/o having to worry about being profitable. The other newcomers such as Rivian and Lucid are essentially at the brink of bankruptcy, so it doesn't look like there's gonna be another Tesla anytime soon. It's like Uber and Lyft that were undermining the taxi cab companies, because they had billions to burn and didn't need to be profitable. Nowadays an Uber ride costs as much or more than a cab ride, because you can't burn cash forever, and Lyft is in danger of going bankrupt. Tesla is making a nice profit, but Merc etc. didn't have the luxury of burning cash like that. It also didn't help that they waited this long to enter the market. They just don't have the experience and the efficiency that Tesla has acquired over the years.

I just read an article the other day about how the so-called disruptive technologies of recent years such as Uber, streaming companies etc. are now more and more looking like the old businesses they were trying to replace. As said, Uber is starting to cost as much and operates like a taxi company. A bundle of streaming services now costs on average as much as cable service used to cost, so we've come full circle. At some point these companies have to sustain themselves and face the reality of needing to survive w/o venture capital. That will inevitably lead to increased prices and they start to resemble today's so-called legacy companies. It will happen to Tesla eventually. They only sell 4 models now and while they've been getting software updates, the design and exterior is starting to feel long in the teeth. The established brands fully refresh their products about every 7 years and have a mid-cycle refresh after about 3-4 years. Tesla doesn't refresh their cars at the same rate and they don't have the breath of products that traditional car makers have.

The other issue is the raw material. Tesla has had a lead start to build battery factories and secure the lithium supplies etc. The other brands are fighting for what's left. It is well known at this point, that there isn't enough lithium to go around. All the projections show that including all the new mines that are planned to open by 2030/35 we can't even cover 50% of the projected lithium demand. Prices will only go up in the near term as the lithium supplies can't meet the demand anymore.

PEagle

Your message sounds very worrisome.
I'm not convinced Tesla not changing design is a problem, Audi and BMW had the same look on all their car for 15 years with only minor facelifts and no one batted an eye.

But regarding Lithium, that means Tesla has theirs secure and all other will be facing major prices increase meaning only them will have affordable prices...
I was seeing Musk burning Tesla to the ground but with such an advantage, I feel like we'll soon have little choice and the big companies going down one after the other.

I really do hope we'll see other fuel or battery technologies emerge, but from what arised in the last 30 years, I'm quite doubtful of anything in that domain (one that is promised to have a huge capacity with low risk and small size and we have heard about for a decade without anything coming to fruition).

I hope I'm wrong but only time will tell.

Thanks for all those elements I wasn't aware of.

SW20S

Tesla beat them all to the market and has a massive head start. thats why. They also understand the millennial consumer far, far better.

Drone_S213

​​Have invested in both TSLA and RIVN. TSLA came to my El Segundo workplace in 2008 along with other local companies at a Technology Bazaar held on our Raytheon Campus and later snagged alot of our Engineering Talent. RIVN picked up a few friends years later as the Defense Budget shrunk after the military drawdown in Central Asia. Old Engineering Colleagues seem to be doing well on LinkedIn at both companies. The Rivian looks much better in person when finally saw one recently at my local NM Wal-Mart Neighborhood Store. Amazon Delivery EV Van orders should boost profitability. Hope to buy the new AMG GT in 2026 when Son graduates GA Tech in 2026...lol

superswiss

Rivian is trying to get out of the Amazon deal, because Amazon ordered only the bare minimum.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/13/2...ns-shaky-start