VinnyT

I know here in US, they're limited to 155. I've tried searches here and on Google, but haven't found a good answer. Anyone have an idea of what the true top speed would be for this Merc?

Yes, just bought an '06 S65 and love it!

Thanks

Welwynnick

Bizarrely, they're a bit under-geared for true top speed. It would probably get close to the rev-limiter, which is around 200. Similar to the big Bentleys.


Nick

VinnyT

I wonder what it would do if it had a 7 speed?

maw1124

The 1000 Nm of torque would shred it to pieces, which is why it still sports the 722.6 -- it was the only trans MB had at the time that could handle the power. It wasn't until well into the W221, or possibly with the W222 that 65 series cars got the 7 speed.

And even now, I see more 65s (SL mostly) with shredded transmissions than anything. After that, coil packs and (I think) ignition modules (the one in the engine bay). Those are the top 3 faults (and ABC makes 4) that I see on those cars.

So Vinny T if you haven't already, change your trans fluid and filter, as well as your ABC fluid and filter, save yourself several grand. Yes, I said several. As for coil packs and modules, pray.

maw

VinnyT

Thanks maw.

I see from previous records that a lot of stuff was already done. Coil packs, bearings, plugs, suspension components, etc.

Hopefully this will have resolved many issues. I will have the tranny fluid changed as I do not see that being done.

Welwynnick

What is it that gets shredded? Gear sets? clutch packs, thrust bearings?

Nick

maw1124

I don't know, Nick. I don't get into it. Failed transmission turns my ears off. These are often other customer cars at shops that take care of my cars. Sorry.

There was a new member here last year who bought an S65 and I think transmission was almost the first thing he had to do on it. See here...https://mbworld.org/forums/s55-amg-s...-2006-s65.html

maw

Quadrobenz

I saw a video some years ago that had the W220 S65 at 202MPH after tuning to eliminate the speed limiters. I recall it was RPM, not power limited. I had mine tuned and it really woke up the car. The W220 had no built in torque or power limiters in the TCU &ECU that could not be bypassed.
I now have a W222 S65 with the 7sp. The factory HP is up about 20HP as well. Stock it is definitely faster than the stock W220 and highway MPG is about 3 MPG better. The W222 TCU has some "unbypassable" torque limiting features to protect the transmission. So a tune nets little improvement between about 2K and 4K RPM but outside that rpm band a tune can add significant power.
I strongly recommend anyone with a W220 S65 get a tune, you will regret you waited when you drive the car afterwards. Other chan changing fluid and filters I never touched my S65 transmission in 10 years and 90K miles of driving with an ECU tune. I also up sized the tires to 285/35's on the rear for better traction at launch. It made a difference over the 275/35's.
Enjoy the car!

maw1124

Good info there. Never knew that about the W220 vs W222 computers. I saw that the W222 computers had been upgraded but didn't know the change. Now the W222 is a bit heavier than the W220, so do you really think it's faster, or just has more power to compensate for the extra heft? I ask because I'm due for some 65 car before all is said and done.

Cheers,

maw

Quadrobenz

The difference in weight is small, not more than 100lbs. The 7spd makes a bigger performance difference than I expected. It much more than makes up for the small weight difference. The peak HP increase is misleading because the power is up at all RPM compared to the W220 except in the 2k to 4k band where the TCU is limiting the torque to 1,000NM. The W222 factory tune seems much better than what was released on the W220. The only slightly negative W222 comment is most of the power delivery is in the final 1/3 of the throttle travel, the W220 was more linear. I know the Eurocharged tune fixes that but I have not yet had the new one tuned.
We have a 2014 E6S so I am quite familiar with the AWD V8. I was right at the point of approving a custom S63 order when I changed my mind a got the S65. I am absolutely happy I got another 65. No regrets whatsoever.

maw1124

Thanks Tom, that all makes sense. We know it takes MB a few years to dial in the computers for real world use vs. their assumptions. I'd be interested to know what you think after an ECU tune to awaken the throttle. I almost traded my 55 for a W221 65, but didn't because of that very issue. You had to put your foot into it, then wait on the turbos to spool up, and by the time you did that you were in somebody else's back seat. Whereas "jumpy" is what I'd call my 55 -- you flick your ankle and off you go, immediately if not sooner. It's clear the 65 is faster, but the 55 felt nimbler and quicker. Of course, the W221 65 was WAY heavier than my W220 55.

Good convo.

maw

Quadrobenz

Maw, we have owned 1 NA V12, 4 V12TT's, 1 NA 6.2L V8 and 1 V8TT. we have driven many miles in all of them, they do not sit around gathering dust. Your comments on the feel of the car are what we saw. The 6.2L E63 V8 7spd was much lighter and felt very hard hitting, no waiting. The 2005 SL600 and the 2006 S65 felt heavy and lazy. I had both tuned, totally changed the feel of the cars. In addition to increasing the power the tune program provides much more throttle response with small throttle movements than the factory setting so the "feel" was much closer to the E63. In fact the S65 became jumpy after the tune so it was hard to make smooth starts. Just like you said, from day one the 2009 SL600 was far better from the factory than the 2005. It was so good I never bothered to tune it. I think the weight difference between the S55 and W221 S65 is about 250lbs, definitely noticeable.
I think the S55 and S65 used almost identical torque converters. The S65 flash stall was about 2200 RPM where the tuned engine was making over 700ft-pounds of torque. The turbos may not have been up to speed but the traction control light was already on, even with the upsized rear tires.
Frankly the W222 is such a great car I do not mind that I have to retrain my ankle to make bigger motions on the throttle. I never knew I needed a full leather headliner, etc, etc, etc until I had them.
I have such a heavy travel schedule I will likely not be able to get it tuned until late fall. I could do the W220 and R230 at home myself with the computer and the OBD 2 port adapter whenever I had a spare 30 minutes. The W222 ECU has to be removed and sent to The tuner to be physically modified to load a new tune program. At least for me that is less convenient.

maw1124

I think "ponderous" is the word that used to always describe MB factory tuning. Seems like they got that sorted out with the W222, at least in AMG trim. And the level of interior lavishness typically reserved for the 65 cars... jeez. Thanks for your thoughts.

And I'm with you -- I wouldn't be sending my ECU anywhere just yet. It looks like they put a lot of thought into it, and the new engine management system is something I'd let the outside world catch up to first.

Cheers,

maw

Welwynnick

I've had five W220's: one 500, two 600's and two V12TT's, which I still own.

It was interesting to compare 500 & 600, airmatic vs ABC. The latter was MUCH better, but I did strangely enjoy being a hooligan in the 500 with the damping turned to stiff. It was an extreme, dramatic difference compared to the subtle ABC switch, and the 500 bobbed and jinked and darted down a winding road like a small car. The 600 felt a bit aloof in comparison, and I think MB missed a trick by not making ABC sport mode more aggressive.

I used to experiment with everything, and found that soft springs and hard rear dampers make the front end very pointy, like its got no weight there, but the rear end was still stable, and would follow obediently. Great fun. You can't play tricks like that with ABC because you need some rolling movement in the dampers.

My 160k mile silver TT is Eurocharged, and is much faster and much more unreliable than my stock black TT. The latter is a good car of course, but feels like it stays within its own limits; not scary at all.

My second V12NA had delightful handing, and the TT's were a step backwards - nose heavy, ponderous, noisy and harsh. Partly down to poor tyres and suspension condition, but the staggered wheels did no favours. I now run rear wheels and tires at the front on both cars, and they're a delight on all roads - pointy and stable, grippy and comfortable, responsive and relaxed. Staggered wheels are just miserable to drive.

My contribution to the community (besides the signature threads) is to encourage everyone with ABC to fit 275 wide tires all round, and reap the rewards.

Nick

Welwynnick

Not making excuses for Mercedes or beating my own drum or anything, but -

coil packs can be protected with better heat shields that provide an air space behind the shield:




and in any case coil packs can be repaired rather than replaced:




ABC flexible hoses can be protected with fire-sleeves:




ABC strut top bushes can be rebuilt:




And failed ABC hoses can be repaired with commonplace, industry standard hoses and fittings:




There's a lot that a resourceful owner or tech can do avoid the worst problems.

Nick

Quadrobenz

Nick, you have done some amazing things with the S class. I always enjoy reading your posts.
Today I pretty much just drive them when I am home and not away on travel. When they need service they go to the dealer. That is a big change from when I was younger and did all my own work, but they were US cars then and much simpler.

nanoera

Tom,
Just a quick question about the rear 285 35 R20. I assume you do not have to use spacer and it won't grind the inner liner? Thanks.

Welwynnick

I think Tom meant 285 35 19 on his W220.

285 35 20 may be OK on the W221, though.

I run 285 30 20 on my black w220, and I'm going to drop it back to 275 30 20 (partly because I don't want ANY rubbing ever, and partly so I can still swap front & rear).

I think the square wheel configuration is a big win for any ABC-equipped car; there's so much potential unrealised without it.

Changing a single width size (10mm) doesn't make a huge difference in itself - not like changing one step (5%) in profile (which is equivalent to one inch rim diameter).

However, if you make one of those changes and fit different tires, the tire may over-shadow the other changes. The make, model, age and condition of the tire has a profound effect.

Nick

Quadrobenz

As Nick commented, I was referring to the W220 S65, so I upsized my rear tires 10mm to 285-35-19. A 285-35-20 will not fit and the rolling circumference is far too large. A 285-30-20 should fit. Good luck finding a 20" rear wheel if you have the W220 S65. Nick is driving an S600 which uses the standard offset wheel. The W220 S65 had a one model, one year only rear hub that requires a 60mm offset wheel. Some manufacturers will custom make a set for you.
Spacers are not of any use on the rear of a W220 S65, they make the fitment problem worse.

AmorSrdanovic

im not sure about flat out top speed but I've had mine up to 170 in 4th with rpm to spare the gears are super tall in the V12 cars
only the W222 V12 cars have the 7 speed every one before has the 5 it was just plain stronger than the 7 at the time