2007 S-65 Died while driving
12-21-2018, 12:18 AM
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2007 S65
2007 S-65 Died while driving
After driving a few minutes the other day, my 2007 S-65 lost power and died (like it ran out of gas, but did not run out of gas). Car would not turn over. All accessories work. Code on my fixed was "unstable voltage and injector errors". Tried to jump the battery, but of course, no joy. Checked the fuel pump fuse, it was fine. I had previously replaced the voltage transformer with one from v12icpacks.com (great service) as I was having intermittent coil errors, and that fixed that problem. Thought I might have blown a fuse or two in the voltage transformer, but nope.
Had the car towed to the dealer and they could not find the problem on the first day. Second day, nothing. Third day, they report internal resistance of the throttle valve exceeds specs and want to replace the throttle valve for $1400 and change, but are not sure that will fix the problem. I could not find this problem on the web, so it seems rare (if ever) on this vehicle, and I would have thought that a throttle valve issue would have shown up in performance before catastrophic failure, but I am no mechanic, so what do I know. I am, however, afraid that the dealer is on a fishing expedition and that this is going to get really expensive with the very real chance of not actually fixing the problem. As such, any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Scott
Had the car towed to the dealer and they could not find the problem on the first day. Second day, nothing. Third day, they report internal resistance of the throttle valve exceeds specs and want to replace the throttle valve for $1400 and change, but are not sure that will fix the problem. I could not find this problem on the web, so it seems rare (if ever) on this vehicle, and I would have thought that a throttle valve issue would have shown up in performance before catastrophic failure, but I am no mechanic, so what do I know. I am, however, afraid that the dealer is on a fishing expedition and that this is going to get really expensive with the very real chance of not actually fixing the problem. As such, any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Scott
12-21-2018, 07:07 AM
#2
This is a good one for sure... My first gut feeling was fuel issues but that would not cause a no turn over. I am hopeful they checked the engine battery and ruled that out but I really don't have much faith anymore with the dealer. Once you figure this out please post the solution but I will certainly keep thinking about it all.
Good luck.
Johan
Good luck.
Johan
12-21-2018, 09:16 AM
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My guess, and this is only a guess, is that your throttle valve is stuck or sticking (oil, dirt, both, whatever), and so the sensor is reporting too much voltage to actuate it. It would tell them to replace the throttle position sensor and clean the throttle body first. If you have a good Indy around you, (where are you by the way?), they can do it. That might fix it, short of just chucking a new one in there the dealer way, save you a lot of money, and be consistent with what fails on these things. Some probably consider that a DIY fix.
After that, then I’d look at rebuilt throttle bodies.
GL and please report back.
maw
After that, then I’d look at rebuilt throttle bodies.
GL and please report back.
maw
12-21-2018, 10:56 AM
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OP what do you mean by "won't turn over?" Does not crank on the starter? Cranks at normal speed but will not start? What codes are in it? What codes immediately return once cleared? Alternator is charging as it should? Dealerships who don't deal with the bent-12 with regularity are even more inclined to 'fire the parts cannon' in trying to fix it.
12-21-2018, 08:30 PM
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OP what do you mean by "won't turn over?" Does not crank on the starter? Cranks at normal speed but will not start? What codes are in it? What codes immediately return once cleared? Alternator is charging as it should? Dealerships who don't deal with the bent-12 with regularity are even more inclined to 'fire the parts cannon' in trying to fix it.
$274 to test it (after testing was initially free)... this is a sunk cost
$1495 to replace the throttle valve (needed to get the car running, allegedly)
$2,332 to replace a leaking shock/strut (I never noticed a problem with the ride in the past 6 months I owned the car, but these are a problem on these cars)
$6,275 driver turbo coolant return line leaking fluid, remove engine to replace line seals (never saw any coolant on the ground and I park in a garage)
$522 recommend replacing motor mounts while they are in there
$195 to update the command software, which has hung on the NAV system occasionally (yes, this is not needed, but you would think they would throw that in for free)
Oh, and they also noticed that the brakes are really thin, but don't have a number listed to do that, but I am sure 4 brakes and rotors are at least 5-6K.
So, notwithstanding that the car drove totally fine a week ago and the interior is nearly in new condition, the car is not worth fixing. Time to consider other options.
12-21-2018, 08:42 PM
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Won't turn over. I do not hear the starter cranking, but I was alone and inside the car, so hard to tell for sure. In any event, here is what they are now telling me at this very large MB dealership:
$274 to test it (after testing was initially free)... this is a sunk cost
$1495 to replace the throttle valve (needed to get the car running, allegedly)
$2,332 to replace a leaking shock/strut (I never noticed a problem with the ride in the past 6 months I owned the car, but these are a problem on these cars)
$6,275 driver turbo coolant return line leaking fluid, remove engine to replace line seals (never saw any coolant on the ground and I park in a garage)
$522 recommend replacing motor mounts while they are in there
$195 to update the command software, which has hung on the NAV system occasionally (yes, this is not needed, but you would think they would throw that in for free)
Oh, and they also noticed that the brakes are really thin, but don't have a number listed to do that, but I am sure 4 brakes and rotors are at least 5-6K.
So, notwithstanding that the car drove totally fine a week ago and the interior is nearly in new condition, the car is not worth fixing. Time to consider other options.
$274 to test it (after testing was initially free)... this is a sunk cost
$1495 to replace the throttle valve (needed to get the car running, allegedly)
$2,332 to replace a leaking shock/strut (I never noticed a problem with the ride in the past 6 months I owned the car, but these are a problem on these cars)
$6,275 driver turbo coolant return line leaking fluid, remove engine to replace line seals (never saw any coolant on the ground and I park in a garage)
$522 recommend replacing motor mounts while they are in there
$195 to update the command software, which has hung on the NAV system occasionally (yes, this is not needed, but you would think they would throw that in for free)
Oh, and they also noticed that the brakes are really thin, but don't have a number listed to do that, but I am sure 4 brakes and rotors are at least 5-6K.
So, notwithstanding that the car drove totally fine a week ago and the interior is nearly in new condition, the car is not worth fixing. Time to consider other options.
Dude, you’re tripping. Take the list and tell them thank you. Start with the throttle position sensor and the crank position sensor (both cheap, known to go, even though the CPS is prolly not the problem). If the car starts, drive it out and find an independent.
Again, where are you located?
maw
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12-22-2018, 09:41 AM
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I think there’s a Eurocharged Dealer in Austin. I would call them and see who they recommend. I’d also tell them the symptoms and the resistance code the dealer gave you and see if they suspect those sensors. Since the car is DOA at the dealer, I’d try those sensors to see if that gets it up and running. If so, great, you can drive it to where it needs to go. Worst case hopefully, you can tow it to where it needs to go. But that dealer is not the place. They have to pay for all that overhead.
If you search for those sensors in your car you will not come up empty. It would not be the first valve position or crankshaft position sensor to go in a MB V12 AMG, leaving an owner stranded. In fact, those sensors are known to leave owners stranded, some even keep an extra CPS in the car.
GL
maw
If you search for those sensors in your car you will not come up empty. It would not be the first valve position or crankshaft position sensor to go in a MB V12 AMG, leaving an owner stranded. In fact, those sensors are known to leave owners stranded, some even keep an extra CPS in the car.
GL
maw
Last edited by maw1124; 12-22-2018 at 01:27 PM.
12-22-2018, 01:23 PM
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OK this is interesting. Can't help with your no start problem but a couple things I'd like to add:
Car is worth fixing you just can't get it "fixed" a the dealership.
Do your own brake work or find a good indy. The price the dealership charges is amazing. The brakes are no different than on any other car and you can get parts much cheaper now than back when these cars were newer.
Coolant o-ring is a cheap fix. I got new tires at my dealership on my '08 S65. They told me I had the same coolant line leaking at the DS turbo and quoted me the same $6K to fix it. This was exactly 2 years ago. I replaced the o-ring in my garage it is a couple dollar part. Mine was barely weeping but yes it was leaking. This one o-ring seems to fail as others have replaced it also if you search you can find a thread on it. The coolant enters from the bottom and goes through the turbo and exits on the top so the coolant is hotter and seems to degrade the o-ring. The dealership wants you to pay to replace them all but most likely only 1 is leaking. The lines on the bottom would require a lot of work but the lines on the top are much more accessible. DS is tight and took some patience. PS looks much easier to access if/when it leaks. If you are not comfortable doing it yourself find a good indy that will help you. Coilpack has to come out so if you're doing the plugs would be a good time since you'll have everything out of the way.
Dealerships are wrecking the ownership experience and scaring people all for more $$$. They work on commission. I have a good friend in Austin who had her oil changed at the dealership (probably same one - she always went to Georgetown MB this was her first time to use the dealership in Austin) and got a list of "needed" repairs that totaled $15K. They told her the car was unsafe to drive. She declined everything and brought the car to me. I pulled up her DTC's and there were a bunch due to low voltage. She had replaced the battery a couple months prior and the codes weren't cleared. Dealership just wrote them all up rather than clearing them and seeing if the issues were real. Again - they get paid on commission. I ended up buying $200 in parts and fixed 2 big oil leaks she had in a couple hours. Her CEL was on and she needed an inspection including emissions. I cleared the codes and drove the car for several days until it was ready to be inspected and had no issue getting it to pass. Dealerships really wreck the ownership experience by scaring people rather than doing the right thing. I understand why most people will not own these cars without a warranty.
Don't panic and don't trust the dealership. Dealerships just replace parts to solve issues. They don't take the time to fix things which can be much cheaper. Take the car to a good indy shop that you can build a good relationship with.
Randy
Car is worth fixing you just can't get it "fixed" a the dealership.
Do your own brake work or find a good indy. The price the dealership charges is amazing. The brakes are no different than on any other car and you can get parts much cheaper now than back when these cars were newer.
Coolant o-ring is a cheap fix. I got new tires at my dealership on my '08 S65. They told me I had the same coolant line leaking at the DS turbo and quoted me the same $6K to fix it. This was exactly 2 years ago. I replaced the o-ring in my garage it is a couple dollar part. Mine was barely weeping but yes it was leaking. This one o-ring seems to fail as others have replaced it also if you search you can find a thread on it. The coolant enters from the bottom and goes through the turbo and exits on the top so the coolant is hotter and seems to degrade the o-ring. The dealership wants you to pay to replace them all but most likely only 1 is leaking. The lines on the bottom would require a lot of work but the lines on the top are much more accessible. DS is tight and took some patience. PS looks much easier to access if/when it leaks. If you are not comfortable doing it yourself find a good indy that will help you. Coilpack has to come out so if you're doing the plugs would be a good time since you'll have everything out of the way.
Dealerships are wrecking the ownership experience and scaring people all for more $$$. They work on commission. I have a good friend in Austin who had her oil changed at the dealership (probably same one - she always went to Georgetown MB this was her first time to use the dealership in Austin) and got a list of "needed" repairs that totaled $15K. They told her the car was unsafe to drive. She declined everything and brought the car to me. I pulled up her DTC's and there were a bunch due to low voltage. She had replaced the battery a couple months prior and the codes weren't cleared. Dealership just wrote them all up rather than clearing them and seeing if the issues were real. Again - they get paid on commission. I ended up buying $200 in parts and fixed 2 big oil leaks she had in a couple hours. Her CEL was on and she needed an inspection including emissions. I cleared the codes and drove the car for several days until it was ready to be inspected and had no issue getting it to pass. Dealerships really wreck the ownership experience by scaring people rather than doing the right thing. I understand why most people will not own these cars without a warranty.
Don't panic and don't trust the dealership. Dealerships just replace parts to solve issues. They don't take the time to fix things which can be much cheaper. Take the car to a good indy shop that you can build a good relationship with.
Randy
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maw1124 (12-22-2018)
12-22-2018, 01:31 PM
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They get paid on commission AND by fixing and reselling cars they convince owners to give up on. Let’s not forget that part, if the techs don’t buy it off the dealership first. Bottom line is, they have zero, ZERO incentive to fix your car cheaply or quickly. The folks at Eurocharged will likely have an Indy recommendation, and may even be able to work on the car themselves.
maw
maw
12-22-2018, 07:24 PM
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Won't turn over. I do not hear the starter cranking, but I was alone and inside the car, so hard to tell for sure. In any event, here is what they are now telling me at this very large MB dealership:
$274 to test it (after testing was initially free)... this is a sunk cost
$1495 to replace the throttle valve (needed to get the car running, allegedly)
$2,332 to replace a leaking shock/strut (I never noticed a problem with the ride in the past 6 months I owned the car, but these are a problem on these cars)
$6,275 driver turbo coolant return line leaking fluid, remove engine to replace line seals (never saw any coolant on the ground and I park in a garage)
$522 recommend replacing motor mounts while they are in there
$195 to update the command software, which has hung on the NAV system occasionally (yes, this is not needed, but you would think they would throw that in for free)
Oh, and they also noticed that the brakes are really thin, but don't have a number listed to do that, but I am sure 4 brakes and rotors are at least 5-6K.
So, notwithstanding that the car drove totally fine a week ago and the interior is nearly in new condition, the car is not worth fixing. Time to consider other options.
$274 to test it (after testing was initially free)... this is a sunk cost
$1495 to replace the throttle valve (needed to get the car running, allegedly)
$2,332 to replace a leaking shock/strut (I never noticed a problem with the ride in the past 6 months I owned the car, but these are a problem on these cars)
$6,275 driver turbo coolant return line leaking fluid, remove engine to replace line seals (never saw any coolant on the ground and I park in a garage)
$522 recommend replacing motor mounts while they are in there
$195 to update the command software, which has hung on the NAV system occasionally (yes, this is not needed, but you would think they would throw that in for free)
Oh, and they also noticed that the brakes are really thin, but don't have a number listed to do that, but I am sure 4 brakes and rotors are at least 5-6K.
So, notwithstanding that the car drove totally fine a week ago and the interior is nearly in new condition, the car is not worth fixing. Time to consider other options.
So your car will not operate the starter? Pretty distinct sound that goes with a bent-12 cranking. If it is cranking when asked but not starting it will crank for a period of time and stop. Push button to turn electronics off to repeat or turn key off and repeat.
If it is not cranking via keyless go or by putting the key into the slot and a twist of the wrist we start with what is wrong there. Usually a starter battery or a starter.
IF it is not cranking and why it is not cranking did not make it on to the dealer's shopping list of things to do on your car.... They don't even deserve to be paid for diagnosis. Seriously.
ABC strut that is leaking.... Have you ever come out to your car to find one corner down? Have you needed to top-up ABC oil more then every six months?
If NO then scratch that off the list of things to do NOW.
Coolant return line for the turbo leaks how much? Do YOU see/smell steamy coolant when the car is turned off? Smells sweet. I had O-Rings for my turbo coolant pipes that managed to make stains under the hood of that by some manner of miracle never required the coolant to be topped off. Engine mounts are good practice to do with an engine out.... But does this really NEED to be done?
Ccommand software... Meh... Your call.
So it needs brake pads and maybe rotors... So what. Rotors on hats are available for less then OEM rotors.
Still need a real answer for why it doesn't run.
Guys are crank position sensors a common failure for the 275 like for the bent eights?
12-22-2018, 08:31 PM
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And the motor mounts can be R&R'd fairly easily. I actually had the dealership do it and they only charged me $530 labor plus $490 for the mounts. Must have only been about an hour job for them! 
12-22-2018, 09:46 PM
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maw
12-22-2018, 10:47 PM
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12-26-2018, 08:17 PM
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Yeah, MB learned to make motor mounts easier from the 140 chassis forward. On my W124 500E, it’s a real science project, damn near disassemble the car sort of thing (just in case you didn’t realize it was a Porsche). On the W220, easy peezy. I have to imagine the W221 is just as easy or easier. Drop the subframe a bit, voila!
OP..... Tell stories of what our dear friends at the dealership know of your S-65 since last week! I'm eager to hear that "It ummmm turned out to be a bad starter battery and well... Um... It turns out our lube tech didn't actually... Like have a clue that there is more then one battery in your fancy-fangled S-65 critter an well we are um.... So embarrassed about this that the service manager like made him replace it and like... We're not going to like charge you for this cuz he's embarrassed about it and I'm like voiding the work order so you don't get a survey from Mercedes cuz I just know that I'd get lit up for sure."
Hope that I'm pretty close with my (slightly) tongue in cheek WAG at what the service writer will have to say!
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maw1124 (01-06-2019)
01-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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I recall getting to do engine mounts in my 124-036 back in the nineties. Good times. Doing the A/C evaporator.... That was a treat. When you get to do it... Give it a heater core at the same time!
OP..... Tell stories of what our dear friends at the dealership know of your S-65 since last week! I'm eager to hear that "It ummmm turned out to be a bad starter battery and well... Um... It turns out our lube tech didn't actually... Like have a clue that there is more then one battery in your fancy-fangled S-65 critter an well we are um.... So embarrassed about this that the service manager like made him replace it and like... We're not going to like charge you for this cuz he's embarrassed about it and I'm like voiding the work order so you don't get a survey from Mercedes cuz I just know that I'd get lit up for sure."
Hope that I'm pretty close with my (slightly) tongue in cheek WAG at what the service writer will have to say!
I hope this guy didn’t dump this car.
Cheers,
maw
Last edited by maw1124; 01-07-2019 at 10:26 AM.
01-06-2019, 10:06 PM
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So you’re one of those who let a .036 go?! Wow. At the moment, I can’t really imagine that. I’ve met guys along the way who’ve let one or two go, but when they got that 3rd one, you’ll bury them in it. I think they’re like air cooled 911 turbos or 928 GTS... there’s just something about them that you know is special — and special doesn’t come along very often. Yes, when I do the evaporator, everything else that’s 25years old in there will be replaced at the same time, just because the disassembly is ... well... Porsche like.
i hope this guy didn’t dump this car.
Cheers,
maw
Nary a peep from OP. Agreed... Hope he didn't get abused.
01-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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The 124-036 was just the thing in the nineties! Blistered fenders... Great seats... Not enough brakes.... Loved it. Put 130,000 miles on that car. Alas... I got the bent-12 bug and fell for a 140-120. Another steed with nowhere near enough brakes and the flexible chassis that has improved so much in newer cars. I'd have got an E-55 in 2004 but at the time had um... Rather more girth then fit comfortably in the seat. Alas... Fifty less pounds solved that five years later. Lol..
Nary a peep from OP. Agreed... Hope he didn't get abused.
Cheers,
maw
01-07-2019, 01:20 PM
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Funny. I've always had M120 lust issues, in either a W140 or R129, both with a .6 transmission. But directly to your point, having a W220 M113k with a .6 has all but cured me of all of that. Why bother? I have my 90's vintage in spades with the .036, and my 2000's vintage in spades with the W220 M113k. As for the .036 brakes, the R129 M120 brakes are an easy upgrade that many people do. I haven't had the need for it, since I don't drive it all that hard, and I fitted new drilled rotors all around on it as soon as I got it. The E46M takes most of the hard driving duty -- the .036 is a more an athletic executive saloon (similar to the S55). Also mine has the original aluminum Brembo brakes from '92 which are somewhat coveted these days, so I haven't pulled the trigger on a brake "upgrade". Mine did the One Lap of America race in 1997 on stock brakes, so I'm not all convinced it actually needs more braking power, as much as that seems to be popular rhetoric. The blue fluid helps. The W140 M120 needs my W220.174 brakes all around, and to lose weight. Still, the right 140 or 129 with a M120 may yet find its way to the stable.
Cheers,
maw
Cheers,
maw
If you're not a savage in the 500E stock brakes are fine.
01-08-2019, 07:00 PM
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Still at the dealer. I reluctantly let them replace the valve, which now works and the starter would now try to crank, but then would immediately blow a main fuse running off the voltage module. They removed the voltage module and said the car would crank without blowing the fuse, so they think it is voltage module. I had previously replaced that module as noted above, and Clark was very quick to send me a replacement, which I dropped off at the dealer today. So hopefully something failed in that module and was shorting and the new/rebuilt module will solve the problem (which if the case was probably the problem in the first place).
01-08-2019, 07:12 PM
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Still at the dealer. I reluctantly let them replace the valve, which now works and the starter would now try to crank, but then would immediately blow a main fuse running off the voltage module. They removed the voltage module and said the car would crank without blowing the fuse, so they think it is voltage module. I had previously replaced that module as noted above, and Clark was very quick to send me a replacement, which I dropped off at the dealer today. So hopefully something failed in that module and was shorting and the new/rebuilt module will solve the problem (which if the case was probably the problem in the first place).
maw
