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I decided to upgrade the high beams, fog lights, and backup lights on my GL. Shopping around for lights on Amazon - it's a mess! There is a whole slew of cheap LEDs, but many are not CAN bus compatible, and the top of the range costs 20X the bottom. Many are dim. Many use a large number of LEDs that fail. Clearly this hasn't been sorted out yet.
Any recommendations on BRIGHT bulbs that don't break the bank? And that have CAN bus fixes that aren't stupid?
Last edited by eric_in_sd; 07-16-2018 at 02:33 PM.
High beam: Sylvania Silverstar Ultra H7, 12.8V,55W
Fog Lights: Sylvania Silverstar High Performance H11ST,12.8V,55W
Low Beam: Osram Xenarc DIS/D2S, 66240CBI, Cool Blue Intense, 5000K, 3200 Lumens. These were purchased online, and for safety reasons, were installed by my local MB dealer.
Thanks for the detailed reply, but I'm specifically looking for LED bulbs. I think they have finally reached performance and life equivalence with HID - the ballasts for which I don't have anyway.
I haven't read anything that would tell me LED's have reached the point of HID. The light wavelength is just different and doesn't illuminate as far. Not sure if they have been able to overcome that with a single LED bulb in an H7 projector.
Although lumens and longevity has reached HID levels, problem with LEDs in any forward projecting lighting is light spread. Unless the housing was designed specifically to capture LED surface mounted light spread, you will end up with reduced throw distance, light scatter, and dark spots. LEDs are ideal for indication lighting (parking lights, signals, etc) or short throw lighting (interior, rear plates, fogs, etc), but HIDs are still better performers for lows.
Unless the housing was designed specifically to capture LED surface mounted light spread, you will end up with reduced throw distance, light scatter, and dark spots.
Not true. The bare LED has a very narrow beam light distribution; it's not difficult to mount a lens directly on the LED and make the distribution hemispherical. Two or more hemispherical faces, and you have the point source distribution you're looking for.
Think about it: LED flashlights have been the default for a long time now. Beam dispersal was figured out a while ago.
Whether manufacturers do this correctly, though, is another question.
The other problem is getting the LED's heat away. Otherwise the lenses discolor and the output drops. Again, we are seeing solutions that look like they work. But there is a ton of mis-engineered junk out there.
I haven't read anything that would tell me LED's have reached the point of HID. The light wavelength is just different and doesn't illuminate as far. Not sure if they have been able to overcome that with a single LED bulb in an H7 projector.
LEDs have better light spectra than HID now. Have been for a while. The stumbling blocks have been high enough power per LED and getting the heat away from them reliably. The crossover point is about now.
But there is still a ton of junk out there. I try to wade through the Amazon listings and it's maddening.
Take a light meter against the LED and rotate, you'll see shift in lumens at different focal points. New LED headlights use reflection to simulate 360 illumination, but you're not getting true 360 at equal brightness.
Heat is a problem. Current solutions are cheaper ribbon heat sinks or more expensive fan cooling. Although fan cooling is the better cooling solution, most don't like the fan whirling sound.
Take a light meter against the LED and rotate, you'll see shift in lumens at different focal points. New LED headlights use reflection to simulate 360 illumination, but you're not getting true 360 at equal brightness.
Heat is a problem. Current solutions are cheaper ribbon heat sinks or more expensive fan cooling. Although fan cooling is the better cooling solution, most don't like the fan whirling sound.
No offense, but you're grasping at straws. If you have to use a light meter, the situation has gotten silly. If the light distribution on the road is good, then end of story.
The ribbon heat sinks are nonsense. The ribbon just doesn't have the heat conductivity.
I'm puzzled by the fan noise comment. Like when you're standing next to the car with the engine off and headlights on?
Look, not going to argue with you, was just presenting an easy way for people to see uneven light distribution. We've gone through numerous designs in numerous housings during testing. Light distribution on road will not be as good as HID.
As for the ribbons, their purpose us to bleed heat from the unit.
And as for fans. They are on when your low beams are on which doesn't necessarily mean when your engine is on so you hear them. These are complaints we have from customers as we offer fan and ribbon type cooling LEDs.
Passing a light meter in front of a headlight is a dumb way to test it. What the beam is like a foot away from the light does not have much to do with what the beam will look like 50-100 feet away.
The ribbon heat sinks are silly. It's a clever idea, but it's difficult to get the heat into the ribbon, and the ribbon does not have much surface area.
The fan noise complaint is interesting. It never occurred to me as possibly being a problem.
Again, there's no good reason LEDs don't work. I've seen supposed aerial photos of beam patterns on the road, looking quite good. Whether it's real, I don't know.
The problem is that you want an LED bulb to work in a H7 housing. You really need a specially designed LED housing to get optimal performance. Don't think we are there yet with a retrofit. I would not go with LED's for your low beams. Maybe in a fog light but not for your main lights.
Passing a light meter in front of a headlight is a dumb way to test it. What the beam is like a foot away from the light does not have much to do with what the beam will look like 50-100 feet away.
The ribbon heat sinks are silly. It's a clever idea, but it's difficult to get the heat into the ribbon, and the ribbon does not have much surface area.
The fan noise complaint is interesting. It never occurred to me as possibly being a problem.
Again, there's no good reason LEDs don't work. I've seen supposed aerial photos of beam patterns on the road, looking quite good. Whether it's real, I don't know.
Never said put a meter in front of the headlight. Point was you're not getting same intensity reflected forward evenly across the whole assembly.
As for ribbon, there is quite a bit of surface area actually.... About 4 feet worth. Again, never said they were the most efficient, just stating two current industry standards for cooling.
All that said, if you're happy with it, that's all that matters I'm just presenting details and customer feedback from the perspective of someone who actually has tested pretty much all spread designs and taken measurements with actual data at the labs. I have no horse in this race as I offer both HID and LED options to our customers.
The problem is that you want an LED bulb to work in a H7 housing. You really need a specially designed LED housing to get optimal performance. Don't think we are there yet with a retrofit. I would not go with LED's for your low beams. Maybe in a fog light but not for your main lights.
I would not go with LED's for your low beams. Maybe in a fog light but not for your main lights.
Yup. I said high beams, fogs, and backup lights. I want to dump a bunch of lumens out there, mostly for off road at night.
One reason I wont immediately change the lows is because I have a supply of good H7s. That, and I just don't care that much about how I've illuminated the low beam path. If I care that much about beyond the low beam path, I'm over-driving the low beams anyway and should either slow down or put the high beams on.
Well, I tell you what, boys, I'll buy a couple of good LED H7s, and if the beam patter on the road looks good, I'll brag about it, and if not, I'll send them back.
There's no reason LEDs can't work very well, even in a standard halogen housing. I already said exactly why this is true. Whether people have done it right, or not, is another question.
You're the one that brought up using a light meter. If you don't put it in front of the headlight, where do you put it? Pointing up at the sky? It's simple: Go out on a dark road and turn on the headlights and look at the light pattern.
No way are those ribbons four feet. Plus, they're folded, so the copper on the inside of the fold is not well ventilated. They're terrible heat sinks, or people would use them in computer power supplies.
Fan cooling is the only way to go. As efficient as they are, LEDs still dump something like half their power into heat. The heat degrades the plastics used to cover the diode, and the output drops. Heat removal is the only solution, and I would certainly use active cooling, especially in a small space.
Well, I tell you what, boys, I'll buy a couple of good LED H7s, and if the beam patter on the road looks good, I'll brag about it, and if not, I'll send them back.
There's no reason LEDs can't work very well, even in a standard halogen housing. I already said exactly why this is true. Whether people have done it right, or not, is another question.
You're the one that brought up using a light meter. If you don't put it in front of the headlight, where do you put it? Pointing up at the sky? It's simple: Go out on a dark road and turn on the headlights and look at the light pattern.
No way are those ribbons four feet. Plus, they're folded, so the copper on the inside of the fold is not well ventilated. They're terrible heat sinks, or people would use them in computer power supplies.
Fan cooling is the only way to go. As efficient as they are, LEDs still dump something like half their power into heat. The heat degrades the plastics used to cover the diode, and the output drops. Heat removal is the only solution, and I would certainly use active cooling, especially in a small space.
Ok, maybe what I wrote wasn't clear, but when I said take a meter to the LED and rotate, I meant rotate around the LED itself, outside the housing that way you see level of brightness spread.
And it is about 3 to 4 feet of surfacearea on the ribbon depending on how many folds. They are big and bulky so not great for computer as they'd restrict airflow in the compact enclosed space and you'd need a bigger fan to pull heat. Again, never said that was the best cooling method, just what's available for those more budget minded. Fans are obviously more efficient.
Look, you're right, you have a belief based on your research... We have a belief based on test data. In the end, none of that matters. If you're happy with it, then that's all that matters.
Ok, maybe what I wrote wasn't clear, but when I said take a meter to the LED and rotate, I meant rotate around the LED itself, outside the housing that way you see level of brightness spread.
And it is about 3 to 4 feet of surfacearea on the ribbon depending on how many folds. They are big and bulky so not great for computer as they'd restrict airflow in the compact enclosed space and you'd need a bigger fan to pull heat. Again, never said that was the best cooling method, just what's available for those more budget minded. Fans are obviously more efficient.
Look, you're right, you have a belief based on your research... We have a belief based on test data. In the end, none of that matters. If you're happy with it, then that's all that matters.
"feet" is distance, not area, which is square feet.
The beam dispersal from the bare bulb doesn't mean much. A lot happens between the bulb and the street.
The only "test result" that counts is what the beam pattern looks like on the pavement.
I don't "believe" anything. I know the technology is in place for these things to work great as direct replacements. Whether or not people have it worked out is another question. All I asked was whether anyone had found good drop-in replacements, and if your answer was "no", then no need to say anything. Fair enough?
Here are the things you want to look for:
- A small number of LEDs. You want the light from the LEDs to go through a lens so it's dispersed in a hemisphere, like the filament on the halogen bulb.
- A fan cooling system. LEDs still make a bunch of heat at the source, which is bad for the lens. 9W household bulbs need healthy size heat sinks to stay cool. You can't afford a big heat sink in the engine compartment, so you need a fan.
- A separate resistor to fool the CAN bus into thinking a 55W bulb is still there. This resistor gets hot, so it should be kept well ventilated. Sad the system can't be reprogrammed to accept LEDs, but it is what it is.
It's confusing. There are a few manufacturers, and many resellers that put on their own color and spiffy box, etc. Not shilling for MicTuning, but they were pretty cool and comped me for the adapters (story to follow) and the bulbs seem to work quite well.
Now for the real fun. If you've changed a H7 halogen bulb, you know how weird that little metal bracket is that goes between the plug and bulb and mounts the bulb to the reflector. Well, you have to get a special one of those designed for LED retrofits. It's a European car problem, apparently. I used these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/371725615238
Here's the good. When you get them done, the result is fantastic (high & low beam, shining on a posterboard about two feet from the front):
This doesn't tell the whole story, because the LEDs are much brighter. Here is the halogen picture with the exposure adjusted to match:
The fog lights are a similar improvement:
The dark spot in the center of the low beams is irritating. It's not as big of a deal as the close-up beam pattern makes it look, and the spot is in the distance when on the road. Still, it's a puzzle, and is probably due to the reflector.
Here's the bad: Know how hard it is to get the low beam halogen bulbs in? Take that x10 for setting up these little clippy things. They cannot be used as is, and have to be customized. It's also insanely difficult to figure out from the outside just how they have to be adjusted. Here's what you're faced with:
Yeah, they aren't supposed to splay out like that. Take a pair of channel-lock pliers and squish them so the sides are snug up against the body of the LED.
Then it comes to fitting the LED assembly to the reflector. Not gonna lie, this is really frustrating. Bend the locking tabs toward the front of the bulb; if the bulb won't then easily rotate into position, bend the tabs further toward the front. After you get it so it rotates into position, if it's loose, bend the tabs back a bit. Trial and error, and don't force anything. The plastic of the LED bulb is not as sturdy as the metal and will give first. Go easy.
You'll discard the rear covers for the lights. Pretty sure they're just cosmetic, anyway.
So it's definitely doable, and the results are terrific, but this is no cakewalk. I lived with only the high beams as LED for quite a while, dreading the work on the low beams, but finally did it and am glad I did.
I'll follow up with tips on the H11 fog light bulbs. They're easier but involve an adventure.
Last edited by eric_in_sd; 05-17-2017 at 04:33 PM.
Our GL550 came with xenon main beams, but everything else is halogen. So...I sorted that out.
Fog lamps. H11 Philips Ultinon LEDs - the ballast is minuscule and no fans or heatsinks on the bulb itself. They're fairly expensive but I have had a set in one of my Ducatis for 3 years and they've held up great. To get rid of CANBUS error, which is critical because a CANBUS error at the foglamps also shuts down the parking proximity sensors, I used Philips resistors. It took some time to wire in the resistors, but installing the bulbs themselves took no longer than a normal bulb change.
High beams: I went with pretty much the same type of bulb as above. BE CAREFUL not to press too hard on the high-beam reflector - otherwise it'll pop out of it's leveling mechanism, and you have to disassemble the entire headlight to pop it back in. I didn't put CANBUS resistors on the high beams and haven't had any issues. The LED ballast was small enough so that I could tuck all the wiring inside and close the cap normally.
Good stuff. LED retrofits have finally come of age.
Great tip about the high beam reflectors. I didn't have any problem with them, but the general rule is, DON'T USE FORCE! When the parts fit, they fit just fine.
Regarding heat sinks, etc.: I've noticed the Philips bulbs use lower power across the board. The units I got are supposedly 30W, which seems to jibe with how much brighter they are than the 55W halogen. The 9W Philips should be about the same brightness as the 55W halogen - but being 6000K would look a good deal brighter at night (at low light levels, your eyes are more sensitive to the blue end of the spectrum).
I looked into 194/W5W LED lights, and the Philips units were lower power. I'd like to set up the front marker lights as pseudo DRL lights to spare wear and tear on the low beams.
FYI, the "ballast" for the LEDs includes the resistor. Possibly also voltage control for the LEDs to allow them to be hooked up + or -. That's why you didn't need anything else for your high beam lights.
I've read through the whole thing and it's kind of amusing.
So you put LED bulbs in the two most ill-suited applications - your fog lights and your low beams - after being advised against that by a manufacturer of LED bulbs who's done controlled lab research on the matter, which you call "grasping at straws". The results basically are:
Fog light cutoff, probably the most important aspect of a fog light, has gone to sh*t. So when actual fog occurs, your "fog" lights will create a nice white curtain for you to enjoy.
Low beam hot spot, probably the most important aspect of a low beam - the central spot that provides you the brightest and furthest illumination of the road directly where the car is going. That's now a nice black spot in front of your car to keep things interesting.
And then you state that LED retrofits have come of age after proving with your own tests that the exact opposite is true? You can't make this stuff up
To top it all off you state that the human eye/brain perceive the blue-ish light as brighter, which is true enough. But you've missed the bigger part of the story. 6000 K light gives less definition and contrast than lower, warmer temperatures, leaving you with the impression of a bright light, but with less actual data for your brain to process.
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PS: I couldn't care less what bulbs you use. I'm not subscribing to this thread, so no point in a reply directed at me.
I'm just leaving this here for others to see, because I don't like misinformation and ignorance
Last edited by shadenfroh; 05-18-2017 at 04:04 AM.
Haha what, are you the forum seagull? Fly in, crap everywhere, squawk a lot, and leave?
Everything you wrote is wrong. "AZN Optics" is some dude running a HID retrofit shop. That dark spot? Like I said, not an issue. It's at the furthest point. The beam pattern is better than with halogen.
Oh, by the way, if I wanted true fog lights, I would have put in amber. I want short range flood lighting for off road.
Delete your post. Better yet, delete your account.
Last edited by eric_in_sd; 05-18-2017 at 09:22 AM.
...problem with LEDs in any forward projecting lighting is light spread. Unless the housing was designed specifically to capture LED surface mounted light spread, you will end up with reduced throw distance, light scatter, and dark spots.
Originally Posted by AZN Optics
Look, not going to argue with you, was just presenting an easy way for people to see uneven light distribution.
Originally Posted by eric_in_sd
The fog lights are a similar improvement:
The dark spot in the center of the low beams is irritating. It's not as big of a deal as the close-up beam pattern makes it look, and the spot is in the distance when on the road. Still, it's a puzzle, and is probably due to the reflector.
I don't think anything I said was incorrect and your post here corroborates my statement. You're seeing that dark spot and uneven lighting specifically because of the previously mentioned light spread on surface mounted LEDs in housing not designed to capture. It's more pronounced up close against a wall and does inhibit illumination as you observed (we observed the same thing in our testing as we informed you earlier). With HIDs, you won't have that dark spot.
10-21-2016, 07:29 PM
I'm just presenting details and customer feedback from the perspective of someone who actually has tested pretty much all spread designs and taken measurements with actual data at the labs. I have no horse in this race as I offer both HID and LED options to our customers.
