When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Why is there an initial break-in for cars? Especially cars like the GTR? You know, where you gotta keep it under a certain RPM for X number of miles.
Aren't all these engines put through the paces at the factory on an engine dyno before ever being put into a car? Or is more a drivetrain thing with the transmission and diff and all that?
Pistons move up in down in the cylinders . There’s always some wear on the engine block when first using the engine. If you change oil on a new car after several hundred miles there is lots of metal particles / dust. You don’t want to flog the engine too hard during the initial break in period .
After the parts are appropriately “ worn” , and the oil has been changed, you can go hog wild.
Premature over use may may prevent piston rings from setting up properly and may lead to premature engine wear.
Pistons move up in down in the cylinders . There’s always some wear on the engine block when first using the engine. If you change oil on a new car after several hundred miles there is lots of metal particles / dust. You don’t want to flog the engine too hard during the initial break in period .
After the parts are appropriately “ worn” , and the oil has been changed, you can go hog wild.
Premature over use may may prevent piston rings from setting up properly and may lead to premature engine wear.
Yeah, I get that. But that's not what I'm asking. These engines are run for a hundred miles or more at the factory, before they are ever installed in a car. No? I've seen video of this. Engine on a dyno being run up to redline and back down for like 24 hours or something.
Why is there an initial break-in for cars? Especially cars like the GTR? You know, where you gotta keep it under a certain RPM for X number of miles.
Aren't all these engines put through the paces at the factory on an engine dyno before ever being put into a car? Or is more a drivetrain thing with the transmission and diff and all that?
i believe your are correct, it’s the married drivetrain. My car is significantly smoother all around after 2000 miles.
AMG GTR, G63, Mclaren 675 LT S, 991 GT3 RS, 991 GT3, many more
Originally Posted by thecutter64
Pistons move up in down in the cylinders . There’s always some wear on the engine block when first using the engine. If you change oil on a new car after several hundred miles there is lots of metal particles / dust. You don’t want to flog the engine too hard during the initial break in period .
After the parts are appropriately “ worn” , and the oil has been changed, you can go hog wild.
Premature over use may may prevent piston rings from setting up properly and may lead to premature engine wear.
Its a combination of components, drivetrain, discs, pads, tires, and cya. Most importantly proper engine and oil temperature, varied RPMs, no lugging before going crazy. That being said, I am usually, 3 tanks of gas and let it rip. My performance cars/race cars, and bikes have always run strong this way.
Yes, I always warm up properly. First 1000-2000 miles I drive in comfort and vary rpms and never floor it to avoid kick down.
My neighbor only drove his 458 Italia on the weekend and would warm up the engine while still parked in the garage and then go WOT. He would also rev the engine to redline before turning it off. Obviously doing it wrong.
I always drive in Comfort mode until the engine oil reaches appropriate temperature usually after several minutes and than switch to my Individual setting which has Race transmission.
My round trip work commute is 12 miles so it takes me too long to reach 2000 miles so I've used 500 miles as a threshold. So far I'm at 450 miles owning the car since September 1st. The engine does seem to perform better at 450 miles compared to delivery with 25 miles on the odometer.
My neighbor only drove his 458 Italia on the weekend and would warm up the engine while still parked in the garage and then go WOT. He would also rev the engine to redline before turning it off. Obviously doing it wrong.
I always drive in Comfort mode until the engine oil reaches appropriate temperature usually after several minutes and than switch to my Individual setting which has Race transmission.
My round trip work commute is 12 miles so it takes me too long to reach 2000 miles so I've used 500 miles as a threshold. So far I'm at 450 miles owning the car since September 1st. The engine does seem to perform better at 450 miles compared to delivery with 25 miles on the odometer.
For me the car drove better after a few hundred miles but it got much much better around 2000. I really only have 2800 miles to date.
According to the factory reps, when asked this question, they always give the same response. It's not to break-in the engine as in days of old, the production values are much too good for that. It's to allow all the adaptations to build up in the computers, for the specific tolerances to learn to each other. The transmission shift behavior, engine airflow characteristics, voltage variances, etc. They also stress, the break in period should be done in Comfort mode, as the other modes will run off an adjusted value based on what the comfort mode learning has been.
You certainly won't blow up the engine with some full throttle right out of the box, god knows it happens all the time with salesmen/porters driving the newest and fanciest cars on the lot, hard to resist the temptation to give it some throttle. But if it was driven like a race car from day one, it will never learn how to be smooth and relaxed when you want it to be. Teach it to be normal, then use Sport+ or Race to make it run like a race car. That's the engineering intention.
AMG GTR, G63, Mclaren 675 LT S, 991 GT3 RS, 991 GT3, many more
Originally Posted by ItalianJoe1
According to the factory reps, when asked this question, they always give the same response. It's not to break-in the engine as in days of old, the production values are much too good for that. It's to allow all the adaptations to build up in the computers, for the specific tolerances to learn to each other. The transmission shift behavior, engine airflow characteristics, voltage variances, etc. They also stress, the break in period should be done in Comfort mode, as the other modes will run off an adjusted value based on what the comfort mode learning has been.
You certainly won't blow up the engine with some full throttle right out of the box, god knows it happens all the time with salesmen/porters driving the newest and fanciest cars on the lot, hard to resist the temptation to give it some throttle. But if it was driven like a race car from day one, it will never learn how to be smooth and relaxed when you want it to be. Teach it to be normal, then use Sport+ or Race to make it run like a race car. That's the engineering intention.
Does this imply if you drive it hard in comfort, the other modes will be more aggressive?
At least it's not 2000 mile recommended break in like Porsche.
I always follow protocol in the owner's manual. Why deviate from that? Maybe some people think that they know more than the manufacturer who built the car.
Does this imply if you drive it hard in comfort, the other modes will be more aggressive?
At least it's not 2000 mile recommended break in like Porsche.
Not exactly.
The things it's learning are mainly transmission gear change adaptations, times and pressures to get desired shift quality. The "desired" window for a comfort shift is longer than one in a more aggressive mode, but driving harder won't give you harsher shifting all the time, it will just take longer to learn it's points.
When we do an adaptation drive after a repair or reset, it requires 5 repeated gear changes, for each shift, at a specified low torque and engine speed. It's trying to learn how to shift in normal driving, not *****-out. From there, when you put your foot in it, it knows to go faster and harder. If it never learns what it takes for a nice smooth shift, it just goes off the factory default, instead of adjusting to the specific characteristics of your actual powertrain.
I always follow protocol in the owner's manual. Why deviate from that? Maybe some people think that they know more than the manufacturer who built the car.
Maybe the manufacturer has a slightly different agenda.... longevity of component life to reduce warranty claims
The things it's learning are mainly transmission gear change adaptations, times and pressures to get desired shift quality. The "desired" window for a comfort shift is longer than one in a more aggressive mode, but driving harder won't give you harsher shifting all the time, it will just take longer to learn it's points.
When we do an adaptation drive after a repair or reset, it requires 5 repeated gear changes, for each shift, at a specified low torque and engine speed. It's trying to learn how to shift in normal driving, not *****-out. From there, when you put your foot in it, it knows to go faster and harder. If it never learns what it takes for a nice smooth shift, it just goes off the factory default, instead of adjusting to the specific characteristics of your actual powertrain.
Are you 100% certain of what you speak, both above and your previous post?
I ask because I’ve been led to believe, as well as read, that ECU’s/TCU’s are constantly adaptive in modern high performance vehicles. Meaning that the drivetrain characteristics will ‘change’ relatively rapidly; (within 10-20 miles?), depending on how the driver is actually driving in real time. Hence, you could be in ‘Comfort’ mode because the road is crappy, but actually driving the car briskly; hence the engine and transmission will respond more quickly than if you’re just tooling around. Conversely you could be in Sport/Sport + type modes but driving ‘sedately’; hence the gear changes, etc. are less brisk than if you were driving in ‘earnest’.
There are no doubt baseline maps, but the adaptive maps will ‘over-write’ those given the way in which the car is actually driven by the owner.
Are you 100% certain of what you speak, both above and your previous post?
I ask because I’ve been led to believe, as well as read, that ECU’s/TCU’s are constantly adaptive in modern high performance vehicles. Meaning that the drivetrain characteristics will ‘change’ relatively rapidly; (within 10-20 miles?), depending on how the driver is actually driving in real time. Hence, you could be in ‘Comfort’ mode because the road is crappy, but actually driving the car briskly; hence the engine and transmission will respond more quickly than if you’re just tooling around. Conversely you could be in Sport/Sport + type modes but driving ‘sedately’; hence the gear changes, etc. are less brisk than if you were driving in ‘earnest’.
There are no doubt baseline maps, but the adaptive maps will ‘over-write’ those given the way in which the car is actually driven by the owner.
Bish
Hey Bish,
My experience has been as you describe. In my GTS it changes depending on the kind of driving I do. For instance if I am in the hills on windy roads in Sport+ and I'm working the car, it quickly adapts and holds shifts much longer - becomes a beast. When I get back to town, let's say the next day I am in Comfort but then select Sport+ but I'm not flogging it, it will upshift much sooner - it'll still hold a gear longer than in Comfort, but not like it did when being flogged in the hills. Seems quickly rapidly adaptive to me.
Are you 100% certain of what you speak, both above and your previous post?
I ask because I’ve been led to believe, as well as read, that ECU’s/TCU’s are constantly adaptive in modern high performance vehicles. Meaning that the drivetrain characteristics will ‘change’ relatively rapidly; (within 10-20 miles?), depending on how the driver is actually driving in real time. Hence, you could be in ‘Comfort’ mode because the road is crappy, but actually driving the car briskly; hence the engine and transmission will respond more quickly than if you’re just tooling around. Conversely you could be in Sport/Sport + type modes but driving ‘sedately’; hence the gear changes, etc. are less brisk than if you were driving in ‘earnest’.
There are no doubt baseline maps, but the adaptive maps will ‘over-write’ those given the way in which the car is actually driven by the owner.
Bish
Originally Posted by California John
Hey Bish,
My experience has been as you describe. In my GTS it changes depending on the kind of driving I do. For instance if I am in the hills on windy roads in Sport+ and I'm working the car, it quickly adapts and holds shifts much longer - becomes a beast. When I get back to town, let's say the next day I am in Comfort but then select Sport+ but I'm not flogging it, it will upshift much sooner - it'll still hold a gear longer than in Comfort, but not like it did when being flogged in the hills. Seems quickly rapidly adaptive to me.
Different types of adaptations.
What I'm talking about is the software learning the hardware. The exact shift times and such will vary from one transmission to the next, the software compensates to make, in theory, every car drive the same, once the adaptations are set. This is different than the car reacting to how you're driving and holding gears longer, that's not adaptation, but a response to your aggressive inputs. This behavior happens quickly but also goes away quickly. If you stop for coffee and then drive normally home, the car won't be holding shifts and preparing for aggressive driving.
We were discussing break-in, which absolutely is designed to give the car time to learn everything, mate that engine and transmission together with any production variations and make it all play nice. I'm an MB tech, this is what I do.
What I'm talking about is the software learning the hardware. The exact shift times and such will vary from one transmission to the next, the software compensates to make, in theory, every car drive the same, once the adaptations are set. This is different than the car reacting to how you're driving and holding gears longer, that's not adaptation, but a response to your aggressive inputs. This behavior happens quickly but also goes away quickly. If you stop for coffee and then drive normally home, the car won't be holding shifts and preparing for aggressive driving.
We were discussing break-in, which absolutely is designed to give the car time to learn everything, mate that engine and transmission together with any production variations and make it all play nice. I'm an MB tech, this is what I do.
On my last car—a Lexus IS300—whenever you disconnected the battery, you'd have to help the ECU re-learn the fuel maps. No sure how many miles it took. But if you drove like a grandma, the car would perform like one. But if you drove it like you stole it, the car would respond in kind. It was a manual, so it's not like it was learning the transmission or anything. It was strictly air/fuel.
On my last car—a Lexus IS300—whenever you disconnected the battery, you'd have to help the ECU re-learn the fuel maps. No sure how many miles it took. But if you drove like a grandma, the car would perform like one. But if you drove it like you stole it, the car would respond in kind. It was a manual, so it's not like it was learning the transmission or anything. It was strictly air/fuel.
Throttle response and timing, not air/fuel.
A/F targets are always stoich out of power enrichment, and a set power enrich setting at enough throttle. Changes screw with emissions so adaptations don't adjust that.
The timing, most Japanese manufacturers have 3 maps, a middle "stock" map, and aggressive, and a retarded map. You can manually set + or - 2 degrees of timing using the factory scan tools on nissan stuff. If you drive like a putz all the time, it will end up on the softest map by default. If you are always playing Ricky Bobby, it will end up on the advanced map.
What I'm talking about is the software learning the hardware. The exact shift times and such will vary from one transmission to the next, the software compensates to make, in theory, every car drive the same, once the adaptations are set. This is different than the car reacting to how you're driving and holding gears longer, that's not adaptation, but a response to your aggressive inputs. This behavior happens quickly but also goes away quickly. If you stop for coffee and then drive normally home, the car won't be holding shifts and preparing for aggressive driving.
We were discussing break-in, which absolutely is designed to give the car time to learn everything, mate that engine and transmission together with any production variations and make it all play nice. I'm an MB tech, this is what I do.
ItalianJoe1, as a tech, Have you ever had a situation with a tuned 2k mile GTS where after driving long enough in town to warm up, the 'engine warning' light lit up, the car felt like it was leaving a stop light in third gear and running on three cylinders? Stop the car, let it rest and it resets....5o miles later it does it again? Could this be a turbo boost issue and unrelated to the tune?
ItalianJoe1, as a tech, Have you ever had a situation with a tuned 2k mile GTS where after driving long enough in town to warm up, the 'engine warning' light lit up, the car felt like it was leaving a stop light in third gear and running on three cylinders? Stop the car, let it rest and it resets....5o miles later it does it again? Could this be a turbo boost issue and unrelated to the tune?
Not specifically, but if the light is on, there's a code. Have it scanned and see what it is.
On tuned cars, I've seen plenty of instances of codes setting related to parameters changed by the tune, unfortunately the first step to making sure the parts are working properly is to put a factory calibration back in it and see if it returns. On my tuned CL, there's very little in the way of airflow diag. On these new 177/178 engines, they check everything, and there's stuff the tuners can't see or don't know needs to be addressed. The increased airflow from the tune can cause strange issues.
Not specifically, but if the light is on, there's a code. Have it scanned and see what it is.
On tuned cars, I've seen plenty of instances of codes setting related to parameters changed by the tune, unfortunately the first step to making sure the parts are working properly is to put a factory calibration back in it and see if it returns. On my tuned CL, there's very little in the way of airflow diag. On these new 177/178 engines, they check everything, and there's stuff the tuners can't see or don't know needs to be addressed. The increased airflow from the tune can cause strange issues.
Thanks again for the technical insight. Question, are you referring to the can buses that store engine information outside of ECU, that cannot be seen by tuners. ? If so can you elaborate?
My understanding is that guys who get second ECUs on tuned cars, don’t understand that this information is stored in those buses and therefore the second ECU is useless.
10-19-2017, 04:12 PM
