SICAMG

OK shopping around for a machine shop that can install Darton sleeves into a M113 block on the East Coast. Any recommendations that are reasonable. Weistec wants $5,000.00 and seems a bit high to me but it does include the sleeves as well.

seanol

Darton should be able to direct you to a qualified shop. I know the sleeves are expensive and the machine work is extensive so that does not sound out of the ballpark for what is required. Are they also honing the sleeves for your piston and ring package?

BlownV8

If he is going with sleeves, he will be using steel and won't need to hone the bore.

seanol

Unless it is a cheap build you would always hone the bore to finished size and surface condition. The act of pressing them in will not guarantee they are perfectly round. All sleeves I have done needed final bore or hone to proper piston and ring size/surface finish.

SICAMG

You are correct. That much I know but when it comes to aluminum blocks I have know expertise. I have built many Ford small block Renegade engines in the 25-30psi of boost so know my way around the fundamentals of a stout build. I no longer have an engine machine shop so need to investigate this as well.

BlownV8

You are correct.

pjw1967

Thank you for this informative thread. While I highly doubt I'll ever sleeve a block, it was interesting to know that it can be done with certain MB blocks. I know it's done with diesels, as I saw it on one of the innumerable automotive cars shows on tv. All knowledge is good.....

JoeJErnst

Are the Darton sleeves our only option on this platform? Their "Modular Integrated Deck" seems pretty slick, but can't we just bore the block oversize by a few mm and press in an iron sleeve?

I know nothing about sleeving aluminum blocks so I'm on a hunt for information here.

JoeJErnst

Anyone have any experience with Dan Benson Racing?

http://www.bensonsmachine.com/about.html

It looks like he's got at least one M113 block in his gallery. May be worth checking out.

SICAMG

Just called and left a message. will see what he says . Thanks Joe !!
Also it would be real nice to be able to swap pistons and rings. The block bores them selves hold up well but it is really the piston/ring gap that gives us the problems. Wouldn't be bullet proof like a sleeved block but surly A LOT better.
Just for some insight ...how many runs do you think you have on your car Joe and how many miles on the engine? Thanks

JoeJErnst

I'm following this thread with anticipation, even though I'm probably 3 or 4 years away from doing it!

SICAMG

Joe check out the rest of my post. Couple questions in there.

JoeJErnst

I have over 180 passes on the car and it just went over 90k miles about a month ago. My engine is fine, but the tranny is starting to go. :-(

SICAMG

See this is my argument...These engines are really strong and maybe I should not even look into the hassle of building a short block.
What do you see for Timing on a pass...,IAT's and AFR

JoeJErnst

IATs before the Killer Chiller would start somewhere around 100 degrees and climb to 160. Since the Killer Chiller (with front-mount tank) they start at about 60 and climb to 120. Timing and AFR were only ever logged once when doing a dyno run. Tony said they looked good so I haven't checked them since.

It's worth noting that I only race my car at the track, so those IATs are during summer months, after sitting in the staging lanes prior to a run. I never do back-to-back highway runs "in Mexico" so if you drive your car that way your results may be different. I also never got to run a 1/2 mile event so I don't have any data for that either.

IMO, the M113k shortblock is easily good to 17 lbs of boost on a daily driven car. Sleeving and going to forged pistons and better rods should only be necessary if you want to play with ~20 psi and/or nitrous.

SICAMG

Ok just talked to Dan and got a price of $2,400.00 and that is half the cost from Darton. That's sleeve's Hone,Deck,line bore. Just slap the rotating assembly in. Sounds like a good deal. Now to find pistons.

E55amg0220

i mean i worry a bit as well being the pistons are hypereutectic ..... least thats what im told .... an made by mahle .... dam good company ..... i have checked my compression ( consistant on every cylinder within 5 psi of ea other ) and i did a leak down and it was fantastic for a motor with 135k on it. I think forged pistons are great but they come with their own problems as well. I figure if your tune is good u should be fine.

I dont think my car has ever been raced or abused it was never modded before me. An it had a great vehicle history report. Only thing i have noticed is last owners musta not have cared to much bout oil changes cause when i tore the covers off to do gaskets in ea of the upper headbolt holes there was some nasty carbon sludge ewwww!! I had to thoughly clean it up cleaned the covers ... the breathers ... the valve train and then have run only 5w40 moly lube ... my engine loves that stuff. An normally i run a can of BG 109 cleaner and some crap high detergent fresh oil through before i put my new molylube in. I figure do this for the next year an the insides will clean right up. But the car barely uses 1/2 quart in 6000 miles and im a spirited driver for sure.

i heard some scarey stories bout the 2003s i dont know if mines a early or later one but some were saying they have high failure rate on the pistons but ive only been able to find a handful. An besides if it hasnt happened by 135k i figure i got a good one.

on another note Joe contact me i have a new trans with only 10k on it just doing nothing. I got MB to install a brand new trans an converter under warranty an for some reason they gave me the old one. Come to find out the trans was perfect an new it was just installed at 126k by previous owner its in the history report an it says mb reman right on it, it was just the converter. I had it looked at by a trans specialist he says it shows no wear at all. I have a new mb one and its under warranty for 3 years 36k lol im good

MACEDON

So how fast are you going to make this car?

Is it still with the stock blower?

VictoryRoadPerformance

The cost of the sleeves alone is about $1500, Our machine shop will do darton sleeves for $3,700. I wouldn't trust other sleeves unless you can find reviews from someone else here, the risk is if they were to come delaminated.

shardul

iTrader: (1)

Pressing sleeves into a block is the easy part.
Assembling a rotating short block assembly is where the costs increase.

seanol

Is there any reason a forged piston with the proper ring package wouldn't work in the stock bore? If it is just stronger rotating assembly I am sure one of the piston manufacturers can make pistons to suit and most custom rod manufacturers can make the proper rods. Balance the crank will mallory metal unless you can get the lighter and you should be good for over 800hp on rotating assembly.
Just a thought.

SICAMG

Do you mean a stock/stock bore? There is something about the walls and the expansion rate of wall and piston. It would be nice to pop in some custom pistons into the stock bores. That would be great !! Mabe shardul would know.

seanol

Centrline made comments on Facebook that he had forged parts in stock bore. Not sure if that means drop in's or sleeved. I know JE or Mahle could make something that works. Now if it would be reasonable, that I can not say. No reason a forged piston with proper rings could not run in an Alusil bore, the clearances would be the difficult part.

BlownV8

Centerline is running a sleeved engine. Do not attempt to use JE's in the stock bore. Go with Mahle or Kolbenschmidt if you plan to use the stock bore and make sure the pistons have the correct coating.

seanol

Aside from coating the only other thing needed is barrel faced rings. No reason any piston manufacturer would not work. Maybe not off the shelf but we are beyond that in this discussion. Porsche and Audi also make Alusil lined engines and JE has been used in those very successfully.
Not a vendor, have no affiliation with JE other than as a customer. They can turn around a piston as quick if not quicker than anyone. Now as to what coating to use, the piston manufacturer can tell you that as well as clearances required. From the light reading I have done bore prep is the most important step and it is possible from the right shop. What shop? I would say any german racing shop that deals with those types of engines (Porsche, Audi).