E55 FBO Rich Condition 9.4 AFR
10-14-2018, 02:52 PM
#1
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E55 FBO Rich Condition 9.4 AFR
I wanna thank Jimmy from CT THE SHOP, For letting me do a pass on his mustang dyno. For time purpose I'm making roughly 505whp and 610whtq with the 15% conversion factor from a mustang dyno to a dynoJet 4th gear pull. The car went from 10.1AFR then 4500-6000rpm 9.4AFR. Ive Data-logged this car left and right, so Its not because of heat soak. My car cruises 14 over and I'm tired of people confusing me, its not heat soak causing this. Its 40 degrees out in new york, the second I touch the gas it goes right to 10 AFR. I HAVE NO MISFIRE, NO CEL, Car does not feel like its missed a beat. This car has hit the target AFR of 11.5-11.8 in February and now it won't hit it anymore. Like i said, the car feels just like it felt then so i don't know what it could be. I do not think its the tune before people start asking me, this exact tune has hit proper fueling in February so its def mechanical. Im writing on the forums because I'm curious if this has ever happened to anyone, AGAIN, it goes right to rich AS SOON AS I TOUCH THE GAS AND LOAD THE CAR!!! Doesnt have to be full throttle..... Also my gauge is on point before anyone refers to it being off, it was dyno verified. ALSO, this car has the recalled new pumps installed and i personally installed the harness because it was running 13.9AFR without it, then it went immediately to 11.6-.8AFR up top, but then this rich condition happened about a month after. I have new spark plugs waiting to be installed but again, wouldn't it cause a misfire if they weren't working to optimal conditions(in regards to the old spark plugs). I'm left with the theory of a vacuum leak, and i say this because it can cause the system to read lean and then force the ecu to compensate and go pig rich. Just very curious if anyone had this problem.
10-14-2018, 02:58 PM
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10-14-2018, 03:03 PM
#5
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This is the Rich Condition being showed at Full Throttle. NOTE: AEM 30-4110 Will not read Lower then 10.0AFR so its definitely in the 9's in this video.
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10-14-2018, 03:03 PM
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This place is a joke.
How many miles on the filters? You can't tell if they are good by looking at them. Fine dust can clog them. How many miles on the car? Have you ever sent the injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested? Have you tried resetting the mixture adaptations with STAR diagnosis?
10-14-2018, 03:06 PM
#7
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How many miles on the filters? You can't tell if they are good by looking at them. Fine dust can clog them. How many miles on the car? Have you ever sent the injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested? Have you tried resetting the mixture adaptations with STAR diagnosis?
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10-14-2018, 03:13 PM
#8
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How many miles on the filters? You can't tell if they are good by looking at them. Fine dust can clog them. How many miles on the car? Have you ever sent the injectors out to be cleaned and flow tested? Have you tried resetting the mixture adaptations with STAR diagnosis?
10-14-2018, 03:47 PM
#9
Who did your tune? Both my EC and RaceIQ tunes were pig rich(pegged 10) until I sent logs to get corrected. Also when you say before you saw 11.6-11.8 was that logged at redline or just you trying to look at your gauge during a pull? Both of their tunes spike pretty lean early on 4500ish and after 5k come down a lot. If you happened to see 11.6 ish at 4500 it still couldn've been 10 by redline still.
10-14-2018, 03:54 PM
#10
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Who did your tune? Both my EC and RaceIQ tunes were pig rich(pegged 10) until I sent logs to get corrected. Also when you say before you saw 11.6-11.8 was that logged at redline or just you trying to look at your gauge during a pull? Both of their tunes spike pretty lean early on 4500ish and after 5k come down a lot. If you happened to see 11.6 ish at 4500 it still couldn've been 10 by redline still.
feb with tony tune
look at afr
10-14-2018, 03:56 PM
#11
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[QUOTE=drothgeb;7577100]Who did your tune? Both my EC and RaceIQ tunes were pig rich(pegged 10) until I sent logs to get corrected. Also when you say before you saw 11.6-11.8 was that logged at redline or just you trying to look at your gauge during a pull? Both of their tunes spike pretty lean early on 4500ish and after 5k come down a lot. If you happened to see 11.6 ish at 4500 it still couldn've been 10 by redline still.[/QUOTE
yeah well any any kind of load this car pings on 10 so it’s a different scenario it’s under 10 afr all around dyno confirmed
yeah well any any kind of load this car pings on 10 so it’s a different scenario it’s under 10 afr all around dyno confirmed
10-14-2018, 10:38 PM
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You don't believe it can be your tune. Maybe it is. Maybe its not. Do not discard a possible solution because you think "that cannot be the problem".
First place I would look is the tune. What is the temperature compensation for air/fuel based upon intake air temperature? What about compensation for coolant temperature? Could someone have "fat-fingered" in an incorrect value? I know that in the past I have. I would look at the logs for the readings of the coolant temperature sensor and the intake air temperature sensor and compare both to air/fuel ratio. I have had both of these provide me with fuel/air ratios *far* outside of what I thought I had programmed. In one case it was an intermittent connection that literally took me six months to figure out. In another I misplaced a decimal in the fuel map. Oops! 10:1 air fuel ratios. Or the time the car would only run under full throttle because the fuel enrichment thought (yes, anthropomorphism) intake air temp was negative 35 degrees Celsius and was adding a *tad* more fuel to the mixture.
Car goes "rich" as soon as you touch the throttle. What are the acceleration enrichments? For how long?
You're going to have to log as much data as possible in an attempt to discover the cause (and there is a cause). Intake air temp. Coolant temp. Acceleration enrichment. Manifold air pressure reading. Throttle position. These are just some of what will impact the fueling.
One of the problems of trying to figure these things out is the tuners do not want to reveal the recipe for their "secret sauce". I can understand that but that means you are going to have to verify all of your sensors via data logging. I would recommend verify sensors but also request from whoever created the tune that they verify the enrichments across the board.
And the above is why I now leave my cars virtually stock. FWIW.
First place I would look is the tune. What is the temperature compensation for air/fuel based upon intake air temperature? What about compensation for coolant temperature? Could someone have "fat-fingered" in an incorrect value? I know that in the past I have. I would look at the logs for the readings of the coolant temperature sensor and the intake air temperature sensor and compare both to air/fuel ratio. I have had both of these provide me with fuel/air ratios *far* outside of what I thought I had programmed. In one case it was an intermittent connection that literally took me six months to figure out. In another I misplaced a decimal in the fuel map. Oops! 10:1 air fuel ratios. Or the time the car would only run under full throttle because the fuel enrichment thought (yes, anthropomorphism) intake air temp was negative 35 degrees Celsius and was adding a *tad* more fuel to the mixture.
Car goes "rich" as soon as you touch the throttle. What are the acceleration enrichments? For how long?
You're going to have to log as much data as possible in an attempt to discover the cause (and there is a cause). Intake air temp. Coolant temp. Acceleration enrichment. Manifold air pressure reading. Throttle position. These are just some of what will impact the fueling.
One of the problems of trying to figure these things out is the tuners do not want to reveal the recipe for their "secret sauce". I can understand that but that means you are going to have to verify all of your sensors via data logging. I would recommend verify sensors but also request from whoever created the tune that they verify the enrichments across the board.
And the above is why I now leave my cars virtually stock. FWIW.
10-15-2018, 07:06 AM
#14
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Thread Starter
You don't believe it can be your tune. Maybe it is. Maybe its not. Do not discard a possible solution because you think "that cannot be the problem".
First place I would look is the tune. What is the temperature compensation for air/fuel based upon intake air temperature? What about compensation for coolant temperature? Could someone have "fat-fingered" in an incorrect value? I know that in the past I have. I would look at the logs for the readings of the coolant temperature sensor and the intake air temperature sensor and compare both to air/fuel ratio. I have had both of these provide me with fuel/air ratios *far* outside of what I thought I had programmed. In one case it was an intermittent connection that literally took me six months to figure out. In another I misplaced a decimal in the fuel map. Oops! 10:1 air fuel ratios. Or the time the car would only run under full throttle because the fuel enrichment thought (yes, anthropomorphism) intake air temp was negative 35 degrees Celsius and was adding a *tad* more fuel to the mixture.
Car goes "rich" as soon as you touch the throttle. What are the acceleration enrichments? For how long?
You're going to have to log as much data as possible in an attempt to discover the cause (and there is a cause). Intake air temp. Coolant temp. Acceleration enrichment. Manifold air pressure reading. Throttle position. These are just some of what will impact the fueling.
One of the problems of trying to figure these things out is the tuners do not want to reveal the recipe for their "secret sauce". I can understand that but that means you are going to have to verify all of your sensors via data logging. I would recommend verify sensors but also request from whoever created the tune that they verify the enrichments across the board.
And the above is why I now leave my cars virtually stock. FWIW.
First place I would look is the tune. What is the temperature compensation for air/fuel based upon intake air temperature? What about compensation for coolant temperature? Could someone have "fat-fingered" in an incorrect value? I know that in the past I have. I would look at the logs for the readings of the coolant temperature sensor and the intake air temperature sensor and compare both to air/fuel ratio. I have had both of these provide me with fuel/air ratios *far* outside of what I thought I had programmed. In one case it was an intermittent connection that literally took me six months to figure out. In another I misplaced a decimal in the fuel map. Oops! 10:1 air fuel ratios. Or the time the car would only run under full throttle because the fuel enrichment thought (yes, anthropomorphism) intake air temp was negative 35 degrees Celsius and was adding a *tad* more fuel to the mixture.
Car goes "rich" as soon as you touch the throttle. What are the acceleration enrichments? For how long?
You're going to have to log as much data as possible in an attempt to discover the cause (and there is a cause). Intake air temp. Coolant temp. Acceleration enrichment. Manifold air pressure reading. Throttle position. These are just some of what will impact the fueling.
One of the problems of trying to figure these things out is the tuners do not want to reveal the recipe for their "secret sauce". I can understand that but that means you are going to have to verify all of your sensors via data logging. I would recommend verify sensors but also request from whoever created the tune that they verify the enrichments across the board.
And the above is why I now leave my cars virtually stock. FWIW.
Video evidence and I have 3 logs with a dyno graph to support that the car is not running right. With this exact tune I’ve ran 11.6 in the past
10-15-2018, 11:06 AM
#15
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It's possible that certain problems with the tune could be intermittent (ie. if they depend on other variables such as temperature). Do you have the ability to re-flash the factory tune, just to make sure? (I know you can with eurocharged, but not sure about other tuners.) Even if you think the tune is fine, it might be worth swapping tunes just to rule it out 100%.
I don't suppose the tune was done while it was running lean from the pump problem? (Obviously, that would cause it to run rich now that you have ample fuel.)
It might be worth checking fuel pressure. While unlikely, a problem with the new fuel pressure regulator could cause excessive fuel pressure (thus running rich). What do your long term fuel trims look like?
I don't suppose the tune was done while it was running lean from the pump problem? (Obviously, that would cause it to run rich now that you have ample fuel.)
It might be worth checking fuel pressure. While unlikely, a problem with the new fuel pressure regulator could cause excessive fuel pressure (thus running rich). What do your long term fuel trims look like?
10-15-2018, 11:20 AM
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'99 and '05 E55 AMG
If nothing in the tune has changed, then that leaves a few areas that can affect fueling. Five of the following could have failed or degraded since the time the car was running correctly.
-Air intake temperature compensation; the colder the intake air, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Coolant temperature compensation; the colder the coolant, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Manifold Air Pressure; the more manifold pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor.
-Fuel rail pressure; the higher the pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the fuel rail pressure; I regard this as unlikely but it's an easy check.
-Acceleration enrichment; the faster the throttle is opened, more fuel is added for an amount of time programmed to prevent a bog. This cannot be checked except in the tune.
-Throttle Position Sensor; the greater the sensor value, the more fuel is added. I would expect a CEL but it would not hurt to verify proper operation with STAR.
Understand that I've never had a "boxed" tune. Many years ago, I was the second individual in the USA (Shiv Pathak out in California was the first) to install Electromotive TEC Engine Control Units on forced induction Miatas. I literally had to wire into the harness, set the computer's initial operating parameters from scratch to get the car to start, and then dial in the engine across all operating parameters (coolant temp, air temp, rpm, MAP, enrichments, etc). It's a lot harder than people think to tune the operating parameters so the car is comfortable to drive. I'm constantly amazed at how effective Mercedes engineers were with the programming of the stock E55. So...my point is that if the tune hasn't changed, then the output of one of the sensors that affects the fueling has changed or fuel pressure has changed.
Be sure to post the solution for us and I hope you get it worked out.
-Air intake temperature compensation; the colder the intake air, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Coolant temperature compensation; the colder the coolant, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Manifold Air Pressure; the more manifold pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor.
-Fuel rail pressure; the higher the pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the fuel rail pressure; I regard this as unlikely but it's an easy check.
-Acceleration enrichment; the faster the throttle is opened, more fuel is added for an amount of time programmed to prevent a bog. This cannot be checked except in the tune.
-Throttle Position Sensor; the greater the sensor value, the more fuel is added. I would expect a CEL but it would not hurt to verify proper operation with STAR.
Understand that I've never had a "boxed" tune. Many years ago, I was the second individual in the USA (Shiv Pathak out in California was the first) to install Electromotive TEC Engine Control Units on forced induction Miatas. I literally had to wire into the harness, set the computer's initial operating parameters from scratch to get the car to start, and then dial in the engine across all operating parameters (coolant temp, air temp, rpm, MAP, enrichments, etc). It's a lot harder than people think to tune the operating parameters so the car is comfortable to drive. I'm constantly amazed at how effective Mercedes engineers were with the programming of the stock E55. So...my point is that if the tune hasn't changed, then the output of one of the sensors that affects the fueling has changed or fuel pressure has changed.
Be sure to post the solution for us and I hope you get it worked out.
Last edited by bbirdwell; 10-15-2018 at 11:27 AM.
10-15-2018, 12:19 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
If nothing in the tune has changed, then that leaves a few areas that can affect fueling. Five of the following could have failed or degraded since the time the car was running correctly.
-Air intake temperature compensation; the colder the intake air, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Coolant temperature compensation; the colder the coolant, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Manifold Air Pressure; the more manifold pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor.
-Fuel rail pressure; the higher the pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the fuel rail pressure; I regard this as unlikely but it's an easy check.
-Acceleration enrichment; the faster the throttle is opened, more fuel is added for an amount of time programmed to prevent a bog. This cannot be checked except in the tune.
-Throttle Position Sensor; the greater the sensor value, the more fuel is added. I would expect a CEL but it would not hurt to verify proper operation with STAR.
Understand that I've never had a "boxed" tune. Many years ago, I was the second individual in the USA (Shiv Pathak out in California was the first) to install Electromotive TEC Engine Control Units on forced induction Miatas. I literally had to wire into the harness, set the computer's initial operating parameters from scratch to get the car to start, and then dial in the engine across all operating parameters (coolant temp, air temp, rpm, MAP, enrichments, etc). It's a lot harder than people think to tune the operating parameters so the car is comfortable to drive. I'm constantly amazed at how effective Mercedes engineers were with the programming of the stock E55. So...my point is that if the tune hasn't changed, then the output of one of the sensors that affects the fueling has changed or fuel pressure has changed.
Be sure to post the solution for us and I hope you get it worked out.
-Air intake temperature compensation; the colder the intake air, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Coolant temperature compensation; the colder the coolant, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor and sensor connectivity.
-Manifold Air Pressure; the more manifold pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the sensor.
-Fuel rail pressure; the higher the pressure, the more fuel is added. Check the fuel rail pressure; I regard this as unlikely but it's an easy check.
-Acceleration enrichment; the faster the throttle is opened, more fuel is added for an amount of time programmed to prevent a bog. This cannot be checked except in the tune.
-Throttle Position Sensor; the greater the sensor value, the more fuel is added. I would expect a CEL but it would not hurt to verify proper operation with STAR.
Understand that I've never had a "boxed" tune. Many years ago, I was the second individual in the USA (Shiv Pathak out in California was the first) to install Electromotive TEC Engine Control Units on forced induction Miatas. I literally had to wire into the harness, set the computer's initial operating parameters from scratch to get the car to start, and then dial in the engine across all operating parameters (coolant temp, air temp, rpm, MAP, enrichments, etc). It's a lot harder than people think to tune the operating parameters so the car is comfortable to drive. I'm constantly amazed at how effective Mercedes engineers were with the programming of the stock E55. So...my point is that if the tune hasn't changed, then the output of one of the sensors that affects the fueling has changed or fuel pressure has changed.
Be sure to post the solution for us and I hope you get it worked out.
10-20-2018, 08:04 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies everyone. Sadly I figured it out on my own and lost a lot of brain cells and maybe grew some gray hairs from the solution lol. Turned out to be my theory of resetting the fuel trims via removal of rear battery. I unplugged it and replugged it and my afr’s went up instantly. This car is not mod friendly. Feel free to watch my vids on Instagram, @alen_germoney
10-21-2018, 04:58 AM
#20
Super Member
Thanks for all the replies everyone. Sadly I figured it out on my own and lost a lot of brain cells and maybe grew some gray hairs from the solution lol. Turned out to be my theory of resetting the fuel trims via removal of rear battery. I unplugged it and replugged it and my afr’s went up instantly. This car is not mod friendly. Feel free to watch my vids on Instagram, @alen_germoney
10-21-2018, 06:47 PM
#22
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. Sadly I figured it out on my own and lost a lot of brain cells and maybe grew some gray hairs from the solution lol. Turned out to be my theory of resetting the fuel trims via removal of rear battery. I unplugged it and replugged it and my afr’s went up instantly. This car is not mod friendly. Feel free to watch my vids on Instagram, @alen_germoney
https://youtu.be/cr0nX-v-Svg
https://youtu.be/cr0nX-v-Svg
Nonetheless, I'm glad you found a temporary fix. Thanks for sharing it with us!
10-21-2018, 07:30 PM
#23
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So...it's a problem with the tune. At least one sensor's values are being misinterpreted by the programming and the code is overrunning the boundary conditions. This is an issue for the software programmer to address and correct. You should not be needing to pull power from the motor electronics in order to force the computer to boot to the original base code.
Nonetheless, I'm glad you found a temporary fix. Thanks for sharing it with us!
Nonetheless, I'm glad you found a temporary fix. Thanks for sharing it with us!
10-21-2018, 07:58 PM
#24
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This place is a joke.
My car would go lean on long highway drives 2+ hours, to the point when I got off an exit the idle would surge and be around 15.8 AFR at idle. Cycle the key it would go away until the next trip. The cause? Dirty air filters.
10-22-2018, 05:23 PM
#25
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ben young (08-08-2021)
