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i'm writing this thread as sort of a follow up to my previous thread and to give a heads up to other early m157 owners (before 2013)
before I begin let me give a recap.
First off I have a 12 CLS63 with 102k miles on it. its been great up until recently ive been getting a p0017/ p0018 code and the car would take a little longer to crank
didnt think much of it until i did some research and found out it could be serious.
sometimes my car fires up totally normal with no issues
I was in denial of a major issue because I had no other symptoms and usually other people have a plethora of other symptoms such as misfiring and timing chain rattle etc.
at this point i've gotten several opinions and we have concluded one thing for certain. the timing is off.
Fortunately every shop and the dealer tech all agree that I haven't sustained engine damage YET but it is definitely possible if I would have left the issue unsolved even longer to the point of catastrophic failure.
i either have faulty camshaft adjusters or a stretched timing chain, but regardless the valve covers have to come off and itd be foolish to change a camshaft adjuster and not change the timing chain. Mercedes has updated the timing chains to a stronger design after 2012 and also updated tensioners and added a check valve.
the repair cost i'm looking at is 3-5k indy shop and $7k+ at the dealership
Where did I go wrong?
Let me back track a bit to see how we got here. My car is tuned, has been for like 30k miles, but the tune is not the issue. I've kept up with the maintenance and gave her the love she deserved. but this is somewhat inevitable for early m157 due to the timing chain, the tensioners, and lack of a check valve. Most people experience a timing chain noise at start up and are able to get these replaced under warranty early in ownership. unfortunately I do not and never did have any sound. I have been an advocate speaking highly about how reliable the m157 is until now and although my opinion isn't changed much, I want to spread the word to help people avoid this altogether. To begin with, I'm not a fool I bought this car with a warranty on it and even purchased an extended warranty on it. As reliable as it has been, I would still advise anyone to get a warranty on a used amg regardless. I was definitely one of the more annoying AMG owners to the dealership I would pop in to have them check out all kinds of non existant noises hoping to get some repairs out of my warranty. but just my luck. this car maxed out the entire warranty (ended at 85k) without needing any major repairs besides the starter which the warranty denied and i paid $1400. Now we are getting to MY mistake.
When the warranty ended, truth be told I should've done what everyone else does, got rid of the car and got something newer. But I was still in love, I took great care of the car, and I truly felt that it was still the same car I bought 2 years ago. (in fact it was better due to mods) and I was not afraid of reliablitiy issues because its been great, so I kept it. I've been daily driving this car for over 2 years now.
Whats Next?
well its not the end of the road. say what you want but I don't think the m157 is junk because of this repair. It sucks, but it'll get dealt with. Its annoying because the shops and techs ive worked with have implied that I should just get rid of the car and not foot the bill as if it wouldnt be worth it or something. I highly disagreee. a lot of people including myself spend more than that on mods alone. I like to look at the bright side. now I can replace multiple other thiings while i'm in there and even put some meth nozzles into the manifold. also will upgrade HPFP. I'm going to bite the bullet and keep the car. I am really plotting hard on that GT63 I hope to get it in the next few years so the CLS will be more than enough to hold me off until then
How can YOU avoid this?
well the simple answer is to buy a 13+ where this issue has been revised. If you are shopping for a 11-12 or you are wondering if your timing chain is the updated one its very easy to check. simply open your oil cap and look at the chain. if it is the older multi link chain, each link will have I believe 4 smaller links connected together side by side. the newer one has less but more thick links. if you have a 2013+ you may be safe from the timing chain issue but not from the rattle. its important to listen for a rattle noise on start up that is caused by oil starvation on a cold start. this can be easily fixed by adding a check valve and/or updated tensoiners. a much cheaper job and something that should be done under warranty. I wish I had pics to help you idenitfy your chains i know tasos has a video about it on youtube. I'll try to hunt down some pics for reference.
IF YOU DO EXPERIENCE SIMILAR SYMPTOMS its important to know that there is a few other cheaper issues that could be causing it such as :
camshaft position sensors (common issue)
camshaft adjuster magnets (also common)
wire in harness (common)
bad ecu (a little less common)
crankshaft position sensor (less common)
definitely check all of these first. like i said, I was in denial at first thinking that I could get away with replacing cheap sensors for the whole life of the car to resolve my issues. it has worked up until this point.
I hope this info can help all my fellow amg owners out there. Still have a lot of love for the engine. To be fair, I drive this thing like a stolen fighter jet. perhaps I couldve squeezed a lil more life out of it by driving like a grandma but hey I'm here for a good time not a long time.
on another note does anyone know if theres upgraded HPFP offered for m157? also if anyone has suggestions for other parts I should upgrade/ replace while in there please let me know.
14 E63, 05 E55, 03 Evo 8, 08 F250, 06 R6R, 92 Talon TSI, and instability
Originally Posted by amgboy916
if you have a 2013+ you may be safe from the timing chain issue but not from the rattle.
I have a 2014, and sure as **** I have the older timing chain design. The later year models may not be exempt from the issue as they get up in mileage. Below is a video by a guy out of the UAE named Tasos who posts extensively about the M157 engine. Pretty detailed about what you will have to change out to support the revised setup.
I will say the jury has yet to convene as to whether or not the revised designs fixes the issue for longer. The new setup does look beefier, but let's face facts; hydraulic tensioners eventually wear out regardless of make and all chains have a service/wear life of some sort. It is indeed annoying that these chains seem to go at such a low(er) mileage than most. Given how extensive this issue appears to be, MB ought to revise the service guide to list this as a "replace at set mileage interval" item for the years this chain was installed rather than "replace if symptoms exist".
I'm at 37k now. I'm thinking I'll make the revision to the updated setup at around 60k one fine Saturday over a few beers in my garage unless I exhibit symptoms before then.
sorry to hear that, man!!! sounds like it couldve been a LOT worse.
just so im clear...if someone with a healthy M157 wants to change the adjuster and chain, its gonna run about $3-5K? or does that include the tensioners and check valve?
I have a 2014 built in 11/2013. I just checked, it has the newer timing chain. However, it had the older chain tensioners and no check valves, and the chain did rattle on warm starts for less than 2-3 seconds. The dealer replaced the tensioners and added the check valves at about 22k miles per the service bulletin.
I'm just going to throw it out there, chain stretch, timing creep, and chain rattle is becoming normal in more or less every vehicle with variable valve timing. Even the newer hondas have made timing chain replacement a 125k mile service item though some people have seen timing creep as early as 80k miles... Just a part of life in the era of VVT. If you don't like it we can always go back to the days of the small block?
It's really not a big deal... The newer 4.0 will have issues like this aswell to one degree or another. At a minimum the chain will stretch over time and the timing will walk... It's unavoidable as the issue is inherent to the design. GM, ford, VW/Audi, MB, BMW, etc all have this "issue"... And I wouldn't even really call it an issue, it's just a maintenance reality. You can't spin a chain under tension at 3000 RPM for 1000-3000 hours and not expect stretch. Even in the era before VVT chain stretch was a reality, but it was less critical and the engines were not zero tolerance like the new ones have to be. Honestly, address the issue. You made it 100k miles and new a new timing chain? Not a big deal in my eyes. This is not considered a major repair and does not contribute to the B10 or B50 life factor of the engine
Hate to say I told you so. As for causes of this.. What oil brand and weight and what brand oil filter are you using? How often is oil changed?
yeah the worse case scenario ended up being true. As for oil changes I’ve been doing every 5k miles using Mobil 1 as instructed with the car but for the more recent changes I was trying liqui moly. I keep my car well maintained but I am pretty hard on it. It’s hard to say what caused it but from what I hear there’s not a lot that can be done to avoid it besides getting updated parts of early on in the warranty
I'm just going to throw it out there, chain stretch, timing creep, and chain rattle is becoming normal in more or less every vehicle with variable valve timing. Even the newer hondas have made timing chain replacement a 125k mile service item though some people have seen timing creep as early as 80k miles... Just a part of life in the era of VVT. If you don't like it we can always go back to the days of the small block?
It's really not a big deal... The newer 4.0 will have issues like this aswell to one degree or another. At a minimum the chain will stretch over time and the timing will walk... It's unavoidable as the issue is inherent to the design. GM, ford, VW/Audi, MB, BMW, etc all have this "issue"... And I wouldn't even really call it an issue, it's just a maintenance reality. You can't spin a chain under tension at 3000 RPM for 1000-3000 hours and not expect stretch. Even in the era before VVT chain stretch was a reality, but it was less critical and the engines were not zero tolerance like the new ones have to be. Honestly, address the issue. You made it 100k miles and new a new timing chain? Not a big deal in my eyes. This is not considered a major repair and does not contribute to the B10 or B50 life factor of the engine
I agree with this 100% it’s a headache indeed but I don’t think it’s a game changer. Still love the car still think it’s worth every penny and it’ll get dealt with. Just wish it wasn’t such a pricey job or wish it was something I could pull off but it doesn’t really seem like it
sorry to hear that, man!!! sounds like it couldve been a LOT worse.
just so im clear...if someone with a healthy M157 wants to change the adjuster and chain, its gonna run about $3-5K? or does that include the tensioners and check valve?
$3-5k is the estimate I’ve gotten from a couple indy that’s including the chain and check valves and tensioners I believe. Dealership was talking over well over $7k I would strongly advise against going there unless you have a good warranty. The dealership is will make it seem like it’s the end of the world when it’s really not
Somebody on the other thread mentioned that the pulse wheel could be off and the timing chain isn’t stretched. I’m still looking into this but it’s hard since there’s not a lot of info about these engines online. Gonna have to talk it over with my mechanic
Somebody on the other thread mentioned that the pulse wheel could be off and the timing chain isn’t stretched. I’m still looking into this but it’s hard since there’s not a lot of info about these engines online. Gonna have to talk it over with my mechanic
sad to say this, but if you already in far enough to check on the pulse wheels, you may as well do the whole damn thing. The bulk of the $$ is in the labor.
sad to say this, but if you already in far enough to check on the pulse wheels, you may as well do the whole damn thing. The bulk of the $$ is in the labor.
I get what you’re saying. Idk much about the pulse wheel setup I was thinking it was something easier to change or get to but if it’s also under the valve cover I’m definitely doing all of it
I have a 2014, and sure as **** I have the older timing chain design. The later year models may not be exempt from the issue as they get up in mileage. Below is a video by a guy out of the UAE named Tasos who posts extensively about the M157 engine. Pretty detailed about what you will have to change out to support the revised setup.
I will say the jury has yet to convene as to whether or not the revised designs fixes the issue for longer. The new setup does look beefier, but let's face facts; hydraulic tensioners eventually wear out regardless of make and all chains have a service/wear life of some sort. It is indeed annoying that these chains seem to go at such a low(er) mileage than most. Given how extensive this issue appears to be, MB ought to revise the service guide to list this as a "replace at set mileage interval" item for the years this chain was installed rather than "replace if symptoms exist".
I'm at 37k now. I'm thinking I'll make the revision to the updated setup at around 60k one fine Saturday over a few beers in my garage unless I exhibit symptoms before then.
To be honest, after watching that video, I am not so sure the newer timing chain is any better than the old one except for it not making as much noise as quickly.
I predict it will also stretch and make noise maybe 20-30k more miles than the old, but inevitably it will also make noise.
Forgot to mention the Mercedes fault code is p001885 that’s the only code
Thats an adjuster failure code. So you MAY only have a failed chain tension adjuster solenoid. If it's anything like the older ones, you will NOT need to remove the timing cover and it SHOULD be a relatively simple R&R once you get access. I'm surprised you're getting that and not something related to the CPS aswell... I'm pretty sure that thing is on a CAN bus and you should be able to test it, I'd have to hook upto a car and see what I can do.
This alone COULD be your problem... Has your tech tried testing it with no luck?
Thats an adjuster failure code. So you MAY only have a failed chain tension adjuster solenoid. If it's anything like the older ones, you will NOT need to remove the timing cover and it SHOULD be a relatively simple R&R once you get access. I'm surprised you're getting that and not something related to the CPS aswell... I'm pretty sure that thing is on a CAN bus and you should be able to test it, I'd have to hook upto a car and see what I can do.
This alone COULD be your problem... Has your tech tried testing it with no luck?
that would explain my lack of symptoms and both shops thinking it could be a camshaft adjuster too. But how can I test it? I guess I can bring it to the shop
again and have them run a test but I’d have to describe it for them
that would explain my lack of symptoms and both shops thinking it could be a camshaft adjuster too. But how can I test it? I guess I can bring it to the shop
again and have them run a test but I’d have to describe it for them
I actually looked it up and you do have to pull the cover but it's immediately infront of you once you pull the cover. I actually did some digging, it's not a smart tensioner... It's actually pretty dumb. From what I'm seeing it's literally ran straight off of oil pressure, nothing special, kinda old school honestly.
I did some more digging and you may have an issue finding the old style tensioner because apparently the new style chain uses a new tensioner, new gears, etc... So I think you may be SOL dude... If you *CAN* find one that is the correct P/N the R&R is still simple. Any swinging dick can do this at their house. Nothing special.
If you can still procure the parts and they're say... under $500 maybe give it a shot... If not... Well you're only out $500... Also if you have that timing cover off you can tell pretty quick with your hand if you got chain stretch...
I actually looked it up and you do have to pull the cover but it's immediately infront of you once you pull the cover. I actually did some digging, it's not a smart tensioner... It's actually pretty dumb. From what I'm seeing it's literally ran straight off of oil pressure, nothing special, kinda old school honestly.
I did some more digging and you may have an issue finding the old style tensioner because apparently the new style chain uses a new tensioner, new gears, etc... So I think you may be SOL dude... If you *CAN* find one that is the correct P/N the R&R is still simple. Any swinging dick can do this at their house. Nothing special.
If you can still procure the parts and they're say... under $500 maybe give it a shot... If not... Well you're only out $500... Also if you have that timing cover off you can tell pretty quick with your hand if you got chain stretch...
yup I heard if you get new tensioner and adjuster you need new chain and all that but I’m definitely gonna look into this that video adding a check valve looked easy I’m sure the tensioner isn’t much harder. Thanks for the info
yup I heard if you get new tensioner and adjuster you need new chain and all that but I’m definitely gonna look into this that video adding a check valve looked easy I’m sure the tensioner isn’t much harder. Thanks for the info
For those that are interested, there are applicable part numbers for the check valve and the tensioners depending on your engine date. Assuming your car does not already have the check valves then you will also have to replace the tensioners. Check valves are super cheap around 20 bux depending on the part number, tensioners are 100 bux each and the push in tool is 200 bux. I haven't had to deal with any of these issues yet but as far as I know the check valves will alleviate the ticking on cold start and fresh tensioners may or may not help with a high mileage chain but the reality is that at some point the chain and all the supporting parts will need to be replaced. I currently have 105k miles on my 2012 cls63 and have no issues with the timing chain so will see how much longer I can go without symptoms. I have attached some pics and the check valve instructions.
I have the updated chain in my car late 2013 production does anyone know how long the labor is to just install the check valves?
I saw a quote that was 600-850 in labor alone, so I'm not sure what the book value is. It honestly seems like something you could do in one afternoon as long as you had the tech data and tooling.
02-20-2019, 12:06 PM
