Some people are reporting that the GT 43 is to be replaced by the GT 53 with Mercedes’ new M256 EVO w/mild hybrid (not plug in). It produces around 450 HP in various specs.

Assuming this report is accurate, what does that mean for the 55? I would argue that the underrated 55 is and will be way faster than the M256, even if Mercedes were to up the output to match the V8 “on paper.” I also believe the GT 55 currently outsells all other variants by a large margin. Has Mercedes ever kept a 53 and 55 in the same lineup?

If this is true, I would definitely buy a 55 while they are still around. No idea on the release date.

 

The 55 stays as before. They just killed the 43 4banger as the engine wasn't EURO7 compliant. The i6 is a much better choice and the V8 models stay. The 55 is needed to provide a moderate V8 option, price wise.

 

As said by @Wolfman , the 43 models are all going away along with the GLC/C63 SE, because the M139 is not Euro7 compliant. High strung engines that use high boost to make power with low displacements is a dead-end at this point due to lambda=1 requirements and hp/l limits.

However, there's a clear distinction between a 53 and 55/63. They are built and tuned for different purposes. The 53 is much more daily driving friendly than both the 55/63. For example the 53 has a torque converter automatic, whereas both the 55 and 63 have the MCT. AMG themselves have stated over in the Private Lounge, that the 55/63 are intended for higher speeds and the open road. They are the more true grand tourers, whereas the 53 are for lower speed, city driving and commuting. I've long said, the 55/63 models in the AMG lineup aren't really daily drivers. They can be daily driven, but that's not their forte. They are much happier out on the open road, a fun canyon road and even the track. The electric compressor combined with the mild hybrid assist and a torque converter in the 53 is much more geared towards responsiveness and drivability at lower speeds around town, but they still have some hooligan in them as you can option them with Race and Drift mode. They are just not as hardcore. I actually quite liked driving the CLE 53. It makes a lot of sense for people who use these mostly as daily drivers over a 55/63.

 

The 55 designation dates back to the W210 it was always about the V8 and still is and forever is. The W206 C 63 got the M139 four banger but that was a one off and we all associate the 63 moniker with a V8 so clearly doesn't work for us enthusiasts and as others had mentioned, M139 not meeting Euro 7 standards.

The 43 models (the modern ones) was MB's way to dilute amg same as 45 and 53. That said, I mentioned specifically modern ones because W202 C 43 was a V8. MB just happened to re-use the 43 naming scheme when c450 sport didn't sound sexy enough to them in the W205.

The 53 on the other hand was mainly used on M256 cars with the C257 CLS and W213 E. The higher number 53 was meant to mean it is an E instead of C. Especially in North America. The W205 C 43 had a M276 while the W206 C 43 has the M139. W214 E 350 has the same engine as the W206 C 300. Notice the number 350 is higher than 300? That said, all is changing with the introduction of the 53 models in the X254 GLC 53 and W206 C 53 and bringing the M256 over.

Edit: W205 C 43 was always called the fake amg along with the W213 E 53 and I still agree but story for another time.

 

Forgot to talk about the 35 models as well.

 

I’ve always called the wife’s E53 an AMG Lite, much to her annoyance. Same 429 hp M256 variant goes into a normal S500.

 

The real vs fake AMG logic has never quite held water IMO. Of course some models are tarted up and not every AMG has gotten the full performance treatment but there are different price points in every brand.
As for the 1 man, 1 engine discussion, the M139 is a hand built AMG engine, same as the M177. In some cases it's installed in a dedicated AMG model (like the SL43) and sometimes in a standard Mercedes. But several of those cars still had additional AMG components (suspension, etc.). The 53 on the other hand is a stock MB engine but in the case of the GT53 4 door, this is a dedicated AMG model rather than a Mercedes one. Not AMG enough? One can argue that both of these examples are legit AMG.
It gets fuzzier in the GLE53 for example as that car has a stock Mercedes engine in a Mercedes model with primarily cosmetic treatments. Here the terms AMG Lite feel like a fit but I always felt that if AMG has it in its lineup, it is an AMG. The rest ist just like BMW with their M-Sport; AMG line are marked up body panels...

 

There is an argument to be made to differentiate what are the 35, 43 and 53 models. These used to be called AMG Sport if I remember correctly. Like BMW has M and M Sport, and Audi has S and RS. The "AMG Sport", "M Sport" and S models are more like standard models of the brand with a touch of sport added by the high performance department, but still largely daily drivers. Some of that is signified by differences in the transmission, where as the lighter sport models got torque converters and the full performance models had dual clutch transmissions or multi clutch in case of AMG. But things have gotten fuzzy. AMG started to add the MCT in 43 models, and both Audi and BMW are putting the ZF8 into every model now and I'd argue that today's 43 and 53 models are more AMG than they ever were. But I think there's room for a series between the regular models of a brand and the top performance models for people who do want some sport, but still want all or most of the daily driving comfort. They don't need things like Race mode, although, even with some of the latest AMG 53 models you can now optionally add Race and Drift mode, so the lines continue to get fuzzy. But as said above, there are different price points. Somebody may not wanna spend 63 money if they rarely really use the additional performance it offers.

 

Ya that is why I didn't want to talk about it anymore since the debate never really ends. I am holding firm on the opinion of 35,43,45 are "fake" amg so we can agree to disagree, to me a "real amg" are those with V8 and hand-built (both) what we can both agree on I think is fake amg or not, it doesn't make them a bad car at all. They are a great car and good daily drivers instead of the track ready 63 models. If I hate "fake" amgs I wouldn't had purchased a C 43 in the first place not to mention to amg tax with insurance premium.
Real or fake amg or not doesn't stop me from buying it them, so there is that.

 

You are right, it is a lite. Anyways there are so many threads on this one and I guess there is no need to discuss this topic further. Reason why I brought it up was because the topic was on the "55" which OP brought up 53 thinking the number is similar so they are similar in anyways, 55 is a different beast much closer to the 63 models. 53 is comparable to the 43 although the 53 like I previously mentioned in my other post is that it was E-Class and CLS exclusive and for the M256 with super charger etc. My intention was not to stir up a real amg vs fake amg discussion, I apologize if it became that.
fake or real amg or not all great cars with different personalities and I hope everyone enjoy them in different ways.

 

Forgot to answer your comment on the SL 43, honestly that model is great in different ways, first it is RWD, the four cylinder is also lighter, reminds me of the z4 30i, much lighter in the twisties than the 40i model. Thing is the SL 43 could had been the 450 but the 43 name or amg branding most likely made MB more money than selling a regular SL 450.
I too agree the 53 model is the sweet spot in the GLE lineup until I realized the GLE 580 is there, a nice V8 without the stiff chassis but like I said, the 53 is good for those who want good performance, more than 450, with a nice inline-6 while hauling a bunch of people.

Either way great discussion let's agree to disagree.

 

Last but not least I always question on amg to develop the dedicated amg gt platform but put a non hand-built 53 (256.930) engine in it what made it even more confusing is they also have a GT 43 (256.930 2) four-door model in the first gen GT four door and then they put the M256 in that as well. Regardless, we can all agree the amg gt in any engine forms are great cars.

Thanks all for the discussion.

 

I just don’t think there’s enough room or sales volume to justify a 53 and 55. That’s why I personally think the 55 will go the way of the dodo when and if the 53 does come out. Hopefully, I’m wrong because unless the 53 is significantly cheaper than the 55, no one will buy the 53 imo. The V8 is so awesome. Man it sounds good.

 

I think what you miss in the discussion is that AMG designs cars and so does Mercedes. These are two distinct entities and the GT as well as the R232 SL are 100% AMG creations. So the SL43 is as much an AMG as a GT63, hand build engines and all.

By your definition even the V12 AMG’s were fake ones too

 

Yes I am aware of the amg gt being designed by amg I thought I wrote that in my previous post. What I have a problem is them putting a serial production non hand-built non V8 engine, the M256 engine in (great engine though). The amg gt needs the M176/M177/M178 engines to make sense for me.

Shoot you are right I forgot about the V12 yes V8 and V12 are both real amg in my eyes. S 65, or the good old sl72 amg.

 

Personally, I view the OMOE thing as a differentiator for the top AMG models. Not all AMGs necessarily have to have it. Also, the engine in the CLE 53 and such while based on the standard Mercedes engine got heavily revised by AMG. Similar to essentially what somebody like Brabus does. They take the AMG engine and revise it for even higher power levels. Don't have to necessarily build an entire new engine from the ground up for it to be a proper performance model.

 

I respect your opinion on that. I am aware the M256 M engine is very different to the regular M256 engine in the 450 models, the supercharger is one example of being different.

 

Sorry OP for the derailment, long story short they will be keeping the 55. Rumour say even the GT EV is getting a 43 or 53 version but will be fully electric, so far only the 63 EV is out. Since that is electric and doesn't have an engine let alone a hand built "motor" we can continue the conversation on the fake amg thing. Just kidding.

 

It was clear that the 55 stays. There is a world of difference between the 53 and the 55

 

Agreed. In the end, AMG provides performance and cosmetic treatments to Mercedes models and also designs and builds standalone engines and cars. They also design non-AMG versions of their engines like the M176 V8. It's simply that the price point of the cars defines the type of components and level of modifications.

 

The specs and output for the M256 in the 2022ish GLE53 and 2023 S500 were identical: 429 HP and 384 lb-ft

 

Any technical differences with the engine itself between the two?

 

Absolute power output is not everything. There's also engine mapping, which controls how the power is delivered. These are things like throttle mapping. An S500 has an extremely lazy way of delivering the power, where as an AMG such as the GLE53 delivers power more immediately. Throttle response is much faster than in a S500. This makes the car feel faster, because less pedal travel results in a more immediate response, whereas with an S500 the time stands still when you step on the throttle. I've had performance cars in the past that shared engines with normal models and practically had the same power output, but the driving experience was night and day due to the different engine mappings.

 

I did a U-turn with my thoughts on this, to revisit this topic, I spent some additional time yesterday and today researching about this topic, re-reading both of your posts. Fair to say I am (finally) convinced.

Thanks again for both of your opinions on this amg or not amg thing. I especially want to thank forum member superswiss for bringing the CLE 53 up. Since that vehicle is what really convinced me that it is worthy of the badge as there were so much attention spent on that vehicle, which I will discuss further in this post.

Alright so let's talk amg, I almost forgot amg was tuning Mitsubishi back then before MB acquired them.

To be fair, I do want to also say thank you to Wolfman too for your comment as you also have a point on the X290 GT 43 and 53 being a unique amg chassis how is it not an amg? That said, wasn't that GT-4 door using the E-Class platform? (The regular C190 GT coupe was a dedicated platform after all.) My main problem with those two specific cars is that they don't have a hand-built V8 and the MCT. Like I said, I was stubborn, my thinking was how true amg is the vehicle if it does not have the beating heart of the amg even though it has the body built by amg, it doesn't have the muscle/joints (MCT) of a German muscle car? Something just doesn't feel right, I respect those who buy these cars like I always said, I never hated the customers who buy them since they honestly are some amazing vehicles, I just find the lineup a little "strange". Of course we can say the same about the CLE 53, let alone that it is based on a regular MB chassis unlike the GT but I digress and will be talking about that further in my post.

I think my stubbornness was due to my earlier experience on how say, MB renamed the C 450 to C 43 (actually they did that with the E 43, SLC 43 first if I recalled correctly, that came first before the W205 C 43) and did pretty much nothing other than swapping the 7G to the 9G and that transmission. It was the same transmission as the "pedestrian" MB models, just amg sprinkled some seasoning and repackaged it, made it shift quicker "speedshift?" etc. not to mention dealerships were helping customers to rebadge their C 450 to the C 43. I think I was also affected by the C 63 S folks, that talk down on these customers, anyhow, I debadged mine for that reason as not even myself can accept driving a fake amg, I rather it wasn't called amg because the insurance premium is obviously higher but if amg didn't played around with that vehicle, the shifts won't be swift, the exhaust wouldn't sound good so at the same time, I am glad amg did what they did to enhance the experience. https://mbworld.org/forums/c450-c43-...-real-amg.html https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-c63s-...-real-amg.html and many more threads on C 63 S owners hating on the C 43 owners.

Personally, I purchased the W205 C 43 because I liked the adequate performance (for me), the exhaust sound, 4MATIC (the most important for me when I daily drive all seasons with winter tires and hate garage queens). I would had got the C 63 S if it had both a V8 and 4MATIC although I understand why people would prefer a RWD vehicle for that, for example forum member superswiss and I agree with him on those reasons he mentioned.

Another thing though, I wasn't one of them but what frustrates a lot of people was they reused the "C 43" moniker when the W202 C 43 had a V8 which was also one of the first amgs with a V8 so that was a very important vehicle for MB. It feels "disrespectful" to the original W202 C 43. Me driving one feel "disrespectful" to the W202 C 43 and their owners. I almost feel ashamed driving my car everytime because of that history piece. A serial production engine, not hand-built and "just" a V6. Well, the W206 C 43 got a hand-built engine but it is a four banger, so...

Anyways, when it comes to brakes, the W205 C 43 (pfl) was just using the at that time "sport package" also called "amg line" brakes from a W205 C 300, just re-badged the caliper (this was confirmed by a forum member in a thread).

Then there is also the A35, which was also another lazy attempt and to possibly compete with the audi s3. Of course there were more serious machines such as the first gen A 45 and the newer gen A 45 S which quite a bit was changed but I always felt amg didn't do enough to badge those vehicles as those vehicles, until the CLE 53 came out. Well, actually credit goes to both of you for convincing me. Small gripe with the CLE 53 though, it doesn't have the very nice MCT, are there any M256 models with the MCT yet?

To be fair, I had the CLE 53 on my shopping list for a while but it wasn't because it was a "real or fake" amg or whatever, I just felt that vehicle was appropriate and fast enough for my needs, well, faster than what I need it for. I like the look of it and always wanted to be back in a sporty coupe.

Back to the CLE 53 that got me convinced, that vehicle was a transition point/product for MB, the wide wheel arches, the wheel designs, performance modes (such as Race) and I am sure I missed a lot more stuff were all reserved for the 63 model not too long ago. As we all know they messed up the C 63 S E Performance, customers hated that vehicle, it was heavy and not fun on the track, physics is physics no matter how MB tries. not to mention how much delay that car had before it finally hit the market. Same goes with the R232 SL, delayed at the VPC and took a long time to be released. They also spent time to develop the Mythos Purespeed. Back then, they were also focusing on experimenting the E Performance drive train with the Model Year Mercedes-AMG GT 4-door GT 63 S E Performance 4MATIC+ coupe (a mouthful).

MB also felt a sense of pride of their achievement as evident of spotted P3 Hybrid CLE 63 S on the road before they scrapped it. That might also explain why MB paid so much attention to the CLE 53 and gave it 63 features, so 63 customers can get that, 53 customers can get that while they wait for the full fledged model? Shall we call that damage control? Oh and now the Euro 7 incompliance, what a waste of development money. MCT with the M139 (the W206 C 43 specifically) that is "not compatible" what I mean by that is they never really perfected software and the engine speaks German and the transmission speaks Gibberish, they can't communicate with each other. Does that mean the MCT (the joints and muscle of an amg) hates all engines other than the V8? Even the transmission thinks other than the V8, nothing are "real amg", haha just kidding.

Don't forget about the money they spent on the EQS sedan (and EQ lineup in general). Which to be fair was a vehicle that MB wanted to be unique and looked different, a futuristic spaceship (hyperscreen) I wished it was like the concept (exterior) but I understand regulations come to play but did they have to make it so different to the concept? Unless my memory is playing tricks with me but didn't MB have production vehicles that looked like concepts before? All the eggs in one basket not thinking how the infrastructure, range, and mindset, customer acceptance of electric only vehicles and how firm the 2035 electric EV only deadline was (well, looks like that was extended) which lead to MB resuming ICE development after halting it back then. To be fair, EV probably helped lower MB's fleet emissions especially from their truck division. If only amg was separate from MB then this wouldn't had been an issue.

Alright so that's how I did my u-turn on this. now that amg has also gone electric, ie. amg gt ev, without a hand-built "motor" not even ICE. Those are the new fake amgs, just kidding : ).

Thanks for reading and your time and attention to this post.

 

I didn’t read all of that but I gave you an upvote for effort lol.