SL55/63/65/R230 AMG: Update on SL65 Engine Work
07-08-2015, 04:59 PM
#201
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V12-Biturbo
lol you are def odd no jealousy or into man loving embraces, I like pretty women thnx.. You should do a simple search, the heads added 15 BHP to the sl65 build I'm referring to IE about 7-10 WHP it was mostly in the top end as per memory.. It was done by Vadim who originally fabbed up the big IC kits & Scorpion air intakes etc etc I was good friends w/him, he talked openly on the phn & on the boards w/me frequently on actual factual results etc.. I don't speculate or make up random krap to annoy/discourage you lol..
Merely trying to save you the hassle but go right ahead & spend all the $ you want.. Then redyno @ a 3rd party shop w/NO personal interest in the build to realize rwhp results or and please 1/4 mi it & realize the REAL WORLD RESULTS & see I'm just trying to help..
I spoke directly w/Vadim/tuner/builder he told me the Ported heads ALONE netted 7-10 whp, add the Cam & Port matched Intake they saw 15-20 whp..
NO speculation here guy.. The original owner speaking on mods done some 7 odd yrs ago, & again just 1 of many including BRABUS who's tried improving Heads/Cams & found little to no gains & never made/sold a Head/Cam pkg/upgrade to the public for the m275.. You need to realize others here actually know much, much, more than you & are again simply trying to help you
They NEVER saw 800 whp anything.. Note they also had a Port matched intake added..
Unfortunately his project never reached his goals & ended with this.. He wasn't running bigger billet turbo whls (though have been shown multiple times to only net 40-45 whp on last 1500-2k rpms, he had a rear mounted much larger Garrett turbo system added to the stock 65 setup...
Again take away the Port matched intake & Cams, add your billet turbos & this pkg you have will net somewhere between 600- @ best 620 whp again just my opinion
Slightly more if you tune efor 100-116 octane.. (Although not mentioned Vadim had replaced the entire Fuel system w/larger Injectors & pump etc etc)
If you want to realize 750-800 whp you absolutely have to replace tiny stock manifolds & turbos & install much larger shorty style header/manifold w/GT30/35's & custom tune w/at least 50/50 93/100 octane mix
Merely trying to save you the hassle but go right ahead & spend all the $ you want.. Then redyno @ a 3rd party shop w/NO personal interest in the build to realize rwhp results or and please 1/4 mi it & realize the REAL WORLD RESULTS & see I'm just trying to help..
I spoke directly w/Vadim/tuner/builder he told me the Ported heads ALONE netted 7-10 whp, add the Cam & Port matched Intake they saw 15-20 whp..
NO speculation here guy.. The original owner speaking on mods done some 7 odd yrs ago, & again just 1 of many including BRABUS who's tried improving Heads/Cams & found little to no gains & never made/sold a Head/Cam pkg/upgrade to the public for the m275.. You need to realize others here actually know much, much, more than you & are again simply trying to help you
Vadim has bypassed the rear turbos and is slated to go on the dyno this week.
The reason: He wants to get the tune right in stages.. ie, not have too many upgrades at one time.. so as to help with any troubleshooting that may pop up.
So, the last time the car was on the dyno it ran 571whp, with the scorpion intake and the upgraded intercoolers.
Now, it will run with the bigger cams, and ported and polished heads, and a port matched intake..
We are expecting about 15-20whp increase this week with those upgrades.
Then he will plumb back in the rear turbos, to make sure that there is only one "variable" to deal with during the final tuning stages..
The reason: He wants to get the tune right in stages.. ie, not have too many upgrades at one time.. so as to help with any troubleshooting that may pop up.
So, the last time the car was on the dyno it ran 571whp, with the scorpion intake and the upgraded intercoolers.
Now, it will run with the bigger cams, and ported and polished heads, and a port matched intake..
We are expecting about 15-20whp increase this week with those upgrades.
Then he will plumb back in the rear turbos, to make sure that there is only one "variable" to deal with during the final tuning stages..
The only upgrades on that dyno run were the intercoolers, intakes and a tune..
This dyno run will have that, plus cams, heads, and port-matched intake..
The final run will have all of that plus the 2 rear turbos..
So, 571, plus 20ish will be 590-600whp, expected on this dyno run..
Then slightly above 800whp on the final dyno run, w the turbos..
This dyno run will have that, plus cams, heads, and port-matched intake..
The final run will have all of that plus the 2 rear turbos..
So, 571, plus 20ish will be 590-600whp, expected on this dyno run..
Then slightly above 800whp on the final dyno run, w the turbos..
Unfortunately his project never reached his goals & ended with this.. He wasn't running bigger billet turbo whls (though have been shown multiple times to only net 40-45 whp on last 1500-2k rpms, he had a rear mounted much larger Garrett turbo system added to the stock 65 setup...
Here's a quick update..
But before I start, I want to say that NO ONE wants this car done more than me, it has been a terribly long build job, and one that should have been completed long ago..
Anyway, about 2 weeks ago Vadim got the beast on the dyno and she ran 607whp..
The rear turbos were plumbed, but one of the turbos wasn't working correctly, (bearings) and so that dyno run Vadim thinks would have been about 620-630 if the turbos wouldn't have been in place to restrict the flow.
So, then Vadim took off the bad turbo, sent it in to Garrett, and had them rebuild it..
He got the turbo back last Thursday, and should have it installed by today..
So, it should be on the dyno tomorrow or Wednesday..
That's the latest..
But before I start, I want to say that NO ONE wants this car done more than me, it has been a terribly long build job, and one that should have been completed long ago..
Anyway, about 2 weeks ago Vadim got the beast on the dyno and she ran 607whp..
The rear turbos were plumbed, but one of the turbos wasn't working correctly, (bearings) and so that dyno run Vadim thinks would have been about 620-630 if the turbos wouldn't have been in place to restrict the flow.
So, then Vadim took off the bad turbo, sent it in to Garrett, and had them rebuild it..
He got the turbo back last Thursday, and should have it installed by today..
So, it should be on the dyno tomorrow or Wednesday..
That's the latest..
Slightly more if you tune efor 100-116 octane.. (Although not mentioned Vadim had replaced the entire Fuel system w/larger Injectors & pump etc etc)If you want to realize 750-800 whp you absolutely have to replace tiny stock manifolds & turbos & install much larger shorty style header/manifold w/GT30/35's & custom tune w/at least 50/50 93/100 octane mix
Last edited by Thericker; 07-08-2015 at 06:03 PM.
07-09-2015, 08:40 AM
#202
MBWorld Fanatic!
Surely the way to make a turbo car more powerful, is more boost, and the
equipment such as intercoolers and ECU to handle more boost. I had my
head polished, not for more power, 10 hp or less, but it was so I could run
more boost. I also had cams fitted, extra 15hp and expensive. But fitting
bigger turbos with re maped ecu and big intercoolers should increase power
by quite a bit and have power passed the red line.
S8
equipment such as intercoolers and ECU to handle more boost. I had my
head polished, not for more power, 10 hp or less, but it was so I could run
more boost. I also had cams fitted, extra 15hp and expensive. But fitting
bigger turbos with re maped ecu and big intercoolers should increase power
by quite a bit and have power passed the red line.
S8
07-09-2015, 09:15 AM
#204
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E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
Boost is a measure of resistance. Contrary to the boost theory. If you make the engine flow better, you will create more power with less boost. Think of boost as inefficiency. It's the force required to push more air into an engine than it can flow.
The problem with the biturbo MB V12 is that the turbo manifolds are very small and don't really allow for huge increases in airflow from the small stock turbos and larger compressor wheels don't do a whole lot either. You really need to create new turbo manifolds that will flow much better to really raise the hp to spine tingling numbers. I don't know of anyone who has custom turbo manifolds readily available. I would buy them if they were out there and if someone had the tuning to back them up.
The problem with the biturbo MB V12 is that the turbo manifolds are very small and don't really allow for huge increases in airflow from the small stock turbos and larger compressor wheels don't do a whole lot either. You really need to create new turbo manifolds that will flow much better to really raise the hp to spine tingling numbers. I don't know of anyone who has custom turbo manifolds readily available. I would buy them if they were out there and if someone had the tuning to back them up.
07-09-2015, 12:41 PM
#205
MBWorld Fanatic!
Boost is a measure of resistance. Contrary to the boost theory. If you make the engine flow better, you will create more power with less boost. Think of boost as inefficiency. It's the force required to push more air into an engine than it can flow.
The problem with the biturbo MB V12 is that the turbo manifolds are very small and don't really allow for huge increases in airflow from the small stock turbos and larger compressor wheels don't do a whole lot either. You really need to create new turbo manifolds that will flow much better to really raise the hp to spine tingling numbers. I don't know of anyone who has custom turbo manifolds readily available. I would buy them if they were out there and if someone had the tuning to back them up.
The problem with the biturbo MB V12 is that the turbo manifolds are very small and don't really allow for huge increases in airflow from the small stock turbos and larger compressor wheels don't do a whole lot either. You really need to create new turbo manifolds that will flow much better to really raise the hp to spine tingling numbers. I don't know of anyone who has custom turbo manifolds readily available. I would buy them if they were out there and if someone had the tuning to back them up.
path that air passes down will cause friction and resistance. So by making
a path with less resistance would be an increase in boost, I don't think so.
You will still have to increase the boost and ok if the path is less resistant
it will stop heating issues. Boost is like force feeding an engine, this will
lead to heating and detonation ( pinking ) and you use a boost gauge to
measure how much air pressure your pumping in. I never seen a resistance
gauge
You can get most modern turbo cars chipped, or re mapped,just a little extra helps a boring family car, but for giant horse power you
need huge turbo and huge boost. I sponsor an old F1 car, a Beatrice Lola,
the engine is quite small but the turbo is the size of your head. It runs 4 bar
of boost, and the engine is rebuilt after every race, that's a petrol head
S8
07-09-2015, 08:38 PM
#206
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Boost is a measurement of air that will not flow into an engine. It's being forced into the engine. The resistance is measured in PSI it takes to force the air into the engine AKA boost.
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
07-10-2015, 12:26 PM
#207
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04 SL600
Boost is a measurement of air that will not flow into an engine. It's being forced into the engine. The resistance is measured in PSI it takes to force the air into the engine AKA boost.
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
Good post but I think your confusing some people.
For simplicity sake, this is in the twilight zone lol
At sea level ambient pressure is 14.7psi.
If you take your chevy 350 into outer space (0psi) and dyno it, you would need 14.7lbs of boost to make the same power as here on earth.
So at sea level you actually have 14.7psi applied to everything around you. But on top of a tall mountain the baro pressure drops so you would have say 12psi. This is the theoretical boost he is talking about. Engine A at sea level will make more hp/tq than the same engine on top of a mountain because of this pressure change.
Boost is pressure above the ambient pressure. So 1psi of boost on a gauge is really 15.7psi absolute if you include ambient pressure at sea level. Its all really simple stuff
The second part of the equation is the volumetric efficiency of the engine, or how easily your engine can pump in and out.
This is what changes when you do "bolt ons" or add cams and such, you are improving flow through out the system so a larger volume of air can be burned to make horsepower.
Of course you can go into engine class 102 and take everything a step farther but Ill save that for another day.
Last edited by r_martin126; 07-10-2015 at 12:31 PM.
07-10-2015, 12:38 PM
#208
MBWorld Fanatic!
Actually I think this will confuse even more. A non turbo relies on induction,
more power is available but it means head, cams, exhaust etc to get not
much more. A turbo car is force fed, and I have never seen a car with no
more power when the boost is raised. Of course you can't just turn the boost
up high before the ecu can cope and the intercoolers etc can manage a big
increase. Sorry that reads a bit strange, but I think you get what I mean.
S8.
more power is available but it means head, cams, exhaust etc to get not
much more. A turbo car is force fed, and I have never seen a car with no
more power when the boost is raised. Of course you can't just turn the boost
up high before the ecu can cope and the intercoolers etc can manage a big
increase. Sorry that reads a bit strange, but I think you get what I mean.
S8.
07-10-2015, 01:38 PM
#209
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E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
An engine is an airpump. The faster you can get air in and out, given proper fuel and timing, the more power you can make. The problem with the MB V12 is that you can get a bunch of air in but there is severe restriction after it tries to exit the heads. That's the problem tuners have with this engine. Just no space to do anything. If you could make better turbo manifolds and make room for larger turbos the sky would be the limit.
07-10-2015, 03:09 PM
#210
Super Member
Boost is a measurement of air that will not flow into an engine. It's being forced into the engine. The resistance is measured in PSI it takes to force the air into the engine AKA boost.
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
I understand everything what you mean....
This machine bottleneck is therefore the exhaust manifold
Hope we can see some numbers about this engine soon....
07-10-2015, 04:39 PM
#211
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V12-Biturbo
Boost is a measurement of air that will not flow into an engine. It's being forced into the engine. The resistance is measured in PSI it takes to force the air into the engine AKA boost.
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
Yes, typically, when you increase boost and increase fuel you get more power. However, more boost will not always create more power. You can literally beat the air so much that it creates more boost but less hp. The air can become super heated when you run a turbo way past it's efficiency rating.
The best way to get more hp is to help the engine breathe. When you do this it will reduce boost. Think of headers on a supercharged car or higher lift cams and or better flowing heads. In every instance, you will have a car that has less boost but makes more horsepower.
Get it?
07-11-2015, 02:44 PM
#212
Super Member
Look at here what I found at Speedriven intercooler kit today when I took of this T-branch.
It looks really bad regarding the pressured air flow.
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...project-4.html
It looks really bad regarding the pressured air flow.
https://mbworld.org/forums/sl-class-...project-4.html
Last edited by Ekselent; 07-11-2015 at 03:02 PM.
07-11-2015, 07:37 PM
#213
Super Member
But since I've never seen the words "Brabus" and "Dyno" in the same sentence...
BTW i just come back from a walk on the champs elysees and saw an ultra rare Brabus S65 900Hp. Too bad we can't dyno that car
07-13-2015, 10:59 AM
#215
Out Of Control!!
How much money are we talking here? I'm pretty sure my car will make over 750whp on race gas once the 17PSI limp mode in the ECU is figured out (my pulley setup is for over 20 PSI but is limited to 17 in the tune so I'm making extra heat for nothing for now). Even at 17PSI I'm sure it makes over 700whp. Someone can buy a SL55 (or even 500) and do the same build
07-15-2015, 03:00 PM
#216
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V12-Biturbo
How much money are we talking here? I'm pretty sure my car will make over 750whp on race gas once the 17PSI limp mode in the ECU is figured out (my pulley setup is for over 20 PSI but is limited to 17 in the tune so I'm making extra heat for nothing for now). Even at 17PSI I'm sure it makes over 700whp. Someone can buy a SL55 (or even 500) and do the same build
No way the 55k will even make 750-800 rwtq let alone 850-900+ unless you Spray nitrous.. And you get the super stout Maybach 5 speed on ALL 65/600's
Last edited by Thericker; 07-15-2015 at 03:04 PM.
07-16-2015, 08:13 AM
#218
Out Of Control!!
Isn't the fastest SL currently a 55?
07-17-2015, 01:00 AM
#219
Super Member
Tyson's Automotive Machine did the heads, Zor Turbo did the custom billet wheels and turbo rebuild. I'm just twiddling my fingers at this point waiting for the shop to get space. This week was a no go since the trunk tank and meth kit for the Weistec SL63 Biturbo needs to get done along with dyno tuning before Mpact. But I'm booked in for July 6th.
07-17-2015, 02:28 AM
#220
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V12-Biturbo
According to Dragtimes a nope... but they're very close though.. And they were both ran at different tracks 65 in North Ca & 55 @ the super track MIR... W/minimal mods & nearly a 100 odd less rwhp hmm.. NOT trying to start a new argument but you gotta admit they're splits are nearly identical & the rwhp quotes for both mod lists do sound fairly accurate.. Though 2 glaring differences the 65 jolted to 1/8 @ 105+ vs 101+ on 55 even though the 55 got a better 60' the ambient temps they both ran in, def killed some back half perf on the 65, it ran in 82 deg vs 55 in 38 deg... & the 65 still ran quicker @ 10.73 vs @ 55 10.77 I'll bet if you ran both @ MIR IN SAME 38 deg air the 65 would run 10.5x or better... The heat absolutely murders the 65/600 perf.. Even though the 55 weighs less, & ran in 44 LESS degree air it still can't outrun the monster TQ
but they're very close though.. And they were both ran at different tracks 65 in North Ca & 55 @ the super track MIR... W/minimal mods & nearly a 100 odd less rwhp hmm.. NOT trying to start a new argument but you gotta admit they're splits are nearly identical & the rwhp quotes for both mod lists do sound fairly accurate.. Though 2 glaring differences the 65 jolted to 1/8 @ 105+ vs 101+ on 55 even though the 55 got a better 60' the ambient temps they both ran in, def killed some back half perf on the 65, it ran in 82 deg vs 55 in 38 deg... & the 65 still ran quicker @ 10.73 vs @ 55 10.77 I'll bet if you ran both @ MIR IN SAME 38 deg air the 65 would run 10.5x or better... The heat absolutely murders the 65/600 perf.. Even though the 55 weighs less, & ran in 44 LESS degree air it still can't outrun the monster TQ
Last edited by Thericker; 07-17-2015 at 02:55 AM.
07-17-2015, 10:27 AM
#221
Out Of Control!!
According to Dragtimes a nope... but they're very close though.. And they were both ran at different tracks 65 in North Ca & 55 @ the super track MIR... W/minimal mods & nearly a 100 odd less rwhp hmm.. NOT trying to start a new argument but you gotta admit they're splits are nearly identical & the rwhp quotes for both mod lists do sound fairly accurate.. Though 2 glaring differences the 65 jolted to 1/8 @ 105+ vs 101+ on 55 even though the 55 got a better 60' the ambient temps they both ran in, def killed some back half perf on the 65, it ran in 82 deg vs 55 in 38 deg... & the 65 still ran quicker @ 10.73 vs @ 55 10.77 I'll bet if you ran both @ MIR IN SAME 38 deg air the 65 would run 10.5x or better... The heat absolutely murders the 65/600 perf.. Even though the 55 weighs less, & ran in 44 LESS degree air it still can't outrun the monster TQ
but they're very close though.. And they were both ran at different tracks 65 in North Ca & 55 @ the super track MIR... W/minimal mods & nearly a 100 odd less rwhp hmm.. NOT trying to start a new argument but you gotta admit they're splits are nearly identical & the rwhp quotes for both mod lists do sound fairly accurate.. Though 2 glaring differences the 65 jolted to 1/8 @ 105+ vs 101+ on 55 even though the 55 got a better 60' the ambient temps they both ran in, def killed some back half perf on the 65, it ran in 82 deg vs 55 in 38 deg... & the 65 still ran quicker @ 10.73 vs @ 55 10.77 I'll bet if you ran both @ MIR IN SAME 38 deg air the 65 would run 10.5x or better... The heat absolutely murders the 65/600 perf.. Even though the 55 weighs less, & ran in 44 LESS degree air it still can't outrun the monster TQ
. He ran at ATCO right before MIR and ran 10.80 vs 10.77 at MIR. Also there have been many SL's that have run at MIR so why aren't they fast? The point is a 55 can handle it's own if it's 0.04 seconds from being the fastest SL with minimal mods. Throw a motor like mine in there and that record would easily be broken (my runs were in + DA). Obviously if they ran in the same weather the 65 would've gained mph but that's not my point. A 55 with stock blower and "minimal" mods is turning better times than 99% of the SL's out there. Imagine it with more than minimal mods.
07-17-2015, 10:53 AM
#222
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2005 SL600, 2016 ES300h, 2012 Hayabusa
I guess it depends on your version of minimal mods. Most v12 guys do an ecu/tcu tune and that's about it. 55 guys do throttle bodies, pullies, ecu/tcu, intakes, headers
07-17-2015, 11:00 AM
#223
MBWorld Fanatic!
According to dragtimes ,and "only " dragtimes ,currently I have the fastest trap for an
SL R230/R231 55/65/63 600 in the US
There are 2 SL 63 s in Abu Dhabi U.A.E. trapping 137 and 133
My trap is 130.29mph at MIR and 129.99 at Atco
Closet I can find is 129.010 SL65
However multiple E55s on the other hand trapping over 130
My car dynod 506 WHP on Enzo,s Mainline Dyno Long Island NY
I'm sure there are faster SL s out there just not on drag times, RBJ E55 is not on drag times ,case in point .
SL R230/R231 55/65/63 600 in the US
There are 2 SL 63 s in Abu Dhabi U.A.E. trapping 137 and 133
My trap is 130.29mph at MIR and 129.99 at Atco
Closet I can find is 129.010 SL65
However multiple E55s on the other hand trapping over 130
My car dynod 506 WHP on Enzo,s Mainline Dyno Long Island NY
I'm sure there are faster SL s out there just not on drag times, RBJ E55 is not on drag times ,case in point .
07-17-2015, 01:31 PM
#225
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06 SL65AMG, 13 Tesla Model S 60kwh, 02 Jaguar S-Type 3.0, 12 S550 4 Matic, 07 E320 Bluetec, 06 LX470
I got a text yesterday morning saying all the stuff I need, like oil change. strut swap, trunk tank, ic pump, rear brake pads, etc was all done this week, which I thought would have been done last week but I guess Mpact East caused back log, and no data logging till next week.
