RossN

I was curious if anyone had contacted Kleemann directly about Kompressor Systems for the new line of Mercedes engines that are coming soon, so I emailed them to ask.

They were kind enough to reply in short order and said, "they are currently working on Kompressor Systems for the M272 (V6) and M273 (V8), AND there will be a Kompressor for the new 63 AMG engine."

Kompressors for the M272 and M273 will be launched in Q3 of 2006 and the 6.3L sometime after.

Gentlemen, 2007 should be a very good year to be a Horsepower Junkie!

neilbo75

Force induction of .45 atmosphere and the 6.3 should put out 650-700 horsepower ... maybe more, giving its superb breathing ability.

Of course, torque also rises correspondingly ...

... way too much stress for the gee wheez 7 speed paddle shifter gearbox.

I don't see that this mod makes sense unless you also retrofit the good old MB 5 speed or if MB comes out with a strudier trainny which they probably will do in 2007 or 2008.

stevebez

Tranny wont cope ... I think TT would be better alternative to the S/C. It will be less stressfull on tranny (with less torque low down than S/C), and its easier to cool a turbo car than a S/C unit and we have not even got to the limited space under the hood yet ...

RossN

This brings up a interesting point, the Trannsmission being the "weak spot figuratively speaking.

The Tuner's like Kleemann, Brabus, Renntech, and MKB should be able to guide us on the Trannmission Limits question raised. Surely with their testing in developing their Kits, they will find the limits in the Drivetrain and develop outputs in accordance.

Let us just hope they share their experience as they go.

Stevebez, I understand your point completely. What we need is a Mercedes insider who can give us some insight on Specs of current and future Transmissions. Would also be interesting to see what Tranny Upgrades the Tuners can offer, as in upgraded clutch packs, etc.

Some questions for you all that relate to Upgrading the 6.3L.

1. Upper Limit the 6.3 can handle in HP?
2. Upper Limits of the current 7 Speed?
3. Upper Limits of Future Beefed up 7 Speed?
4. No Direct Injection in current version, future DI a possibilty with future HP & Economy gains?
5. Current Tuners that offer Tranny Upgrades?
6. Are any Driveline components Upgraded with the 030 option, thus making it essential for future HP upgrades?
7. Upper Limit on rpm, can it safely go beyond current 6800 limit?

RossN

I went searching for info on the 7 speed and thought there was a in depth article on WorldCarFans.com but couldn't find it.

What I did find was a link to guess who, Kleemann on the very same question we are raising. For the link, click here.

Here is what they had to say.


"Will the 7G tronic be able to handle the power of a KLEEMANN tuning solution?

The 7 speed 7G tronic transmission (722.9) is slowly being phased in to replace the 5 speed (722.6) transmission Mercedes Benz has used for the last 5 years. All new N/A V6 and V8 vehicles are now being built with the W7A 700 variant of the 7G tronic. The WA700 variant is endurance load rated by Mercedes Benz at 760 Nm (560 lbs/ft) of torque. This means the transmission will handle this amount of power continuously with out failure. There will never be a time where one can develop this kind of power continuously on the road. Momentary load ratings are easily 35 % higher than continuous ratings. The 7G tronic transmission will easily handle the performance from a KLEEMANN conversion. The 7G tronic has been available for nearly one year and KLEEMANN has modified many of these vehicles. None of these modified vehicles has had any trouble to date, many of them having logged in excess of 64,000 km (40.000 miles).

Overview over Engines, Gearboxes and Constant Loads:


Engine Gearbox Constant load

All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm

M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm

M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm

M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm

M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm

M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm"



Limit of M156, 6.3L is 630 Nm at 5200 rpm.

Here is the factory graph for the M156.

whoover

Kleeman is saying "trust us -- you don't need the Mercedes engineering margins of safety."

That approach is a crap shoot. The probability of transmission failure is higher and you gamble that the stars (and your planetary gearsets) stay aligned. That's not very comforting.

Mercedes has stated that the major reason they had AMG develop the 6.3 was to have a lower-torque, higher-rev engine to mate with the seven-speed transmission. That tells me that the tranny can't be hardened to handle high torque. Or at least, Mercedes considered a new engine development project easier and more likely to succeed.

I wouldn't want to have to convince Mercedes to replace my blown 7-speed with a printout of Kleeman's website.

It seems that the 5-speed will continue to define models of choice for the modder.

Ted Baldwin

..............yellowR1 on this board has an SLK55 S8 with the & speed tranny. Perhaps he will like to chime in.

Ted

Jakpro1

If anything, Cory and Klee go right by the book on specs for the Benz tranny. They told me all about the torque limits and how they really shouldn't exceed them. If anything, I think the Klee Kompresser will be a tiny amount of boost to bring the car right smack up against the torque limit of the car.

They did mention AMG/Benz is workin on a "bullet proof" 7 speed for the future twin turbs so maybe they are just planning for that.

Unless they yank that 7 speeder.....no way right now this can be done.

We'll see.

stevebez

The S/C also puts more strain on the drive train than a turbo car would - there just more mechanical mass/drag in a S/C setup.

MKB do a beefed up tranny conversion (for the 5 speed!) - but what it entails I have no idea.

BlownV8

A centrifugal supercharger or a good turbo system would give you all the power you needed without over powering your tranny. However, you would have to use an electronic wastegate on the turbo to limit the low end boost so as not to blow the tranny. The centrifugal supercharger would work perfectly due to its power delivery but it's not nearly as glamorous as the turbo.

HP = tq * RPM/5252. You can have more than 700 hp and not exceed the torque limitations of the tranny. How's that? If the engine revs to 6800 rpm and you could keep the torque limited to 550 lb-ft at 6800, you would have 712 hp. 550 lb-ft * 6800 / 5252 = 712. Yep, the engine has some room for tuning. A 700 hp E class might be fun!

benzmodz

You couldn't fill a 747 with the number of people that want to do this upgrade to an E63. If you could then Kleeman would be a Fortune 500 company.

I think some members have the "old fart" gene kicking in and are already showing signs of "back in the day".

whoover

Clearly two countries divided by a common language.

As you quoted my post, I guess I'm the old fart. I'm not sure what part of that post waxes nostalgic in Aussie; it must be a translation problem.

For the record, I am fairly conservative about mods because reliability is important to me. But I do love when the factory pushes the (warrantied) envelope. So I'll plead guilty to crepitator senex but certainly not "back in the day."

L8Apex

I think Kleeman is right. Mercedes, Porsche and BMW overbuild their trans and diffs and measure the capabilities by constant load (as mentioned in the article). From experience my 95 M3 had a quick spool turbo (max boost by 2k rpms) that produced 395 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels (stock was around 180 ft.lbs). The torque rating for that tranny was around 300 ft/lbs. The only issue I had was failure of the tranny and engine mounts from the extreme amount of twist the turbo produced. I put over 100k miles on it with no issues. Does anyone know the factory rating on the 55k tranny?

Blown V8 is right about the centrifugal supercharger that would definetly take some of the stress off of the tranny if it was an issue not to mention the easy of installation.

Heisenberg

There is probably a reason the SLR doesn't come with the 7sp.

Turtle25

The SLR doesn't come with the 7-speed because it wasn't developed yet when it was launched.

BiG22DuBz

Just curious...isnt the compression of the 6.3 a little too high for forced induction?

stevebez

Yes ... it would need to be dropped for sure. That alone could be a party trick of note....

Why bother with after mkt TT's / S/C's when we getting TT 6.2 in W212..?

Maybe we should drive the E63 before we want it to have more go ... but then again too much is just enough isnt it !

BlownV8

You could run low boost without too much of an issue. An extra 5psi will get the E63 engine to around 700 hp. Like I said earlier, the boost will need to come in on the upper rpm range so as not to overpower the tranny. With care, boosting the E63 will be possible and should produce some very good results.

newton22

Would a refreshed 5-speed be an option for them at all? Personally, I don't see any major con with the 5-speeds.

benzmodz

You should deny being the aforementioned "fart" but I admire your ability to embrace ideas !

RossN

Are we sure the E is getting this TT engine? The 030 is just getting announced on the E and we don't even know if it has all the goodies that are included in the CLS 030 package. To me this indicated the DC isn't pushing the E as THE sports sedan.

Besides, it will be 2 to 4 years before the TT would be available in the current E in the US. Just my opinion.

RossN

11.3 is the CR of the 63 engine. That is pretty high but get used to it, all the High Performance engine manufacturers are going this route because of improved Engine Electronics and sensor technology each year. A good Tuner shop will be able to tune a low boost S/C at safe levels, all depends on how this engine resists detonation. Direct Injection will really help if and when if ever comes on this engine.

Everything you wanted to know about the 6.3L Engine article.

RossN

Agreed. The LS2 in the Chevy line is at 10.9:1 and there are many new S/C and TT kits now hitting the market. I would not forgo a intercooler though.

BTW, 5.4L in the W210 (pre 2003 E55) came with 10.5:1 CR.

RossN

Probably correct on that assumption on #'s, those 400+ Kleemann customers are sure going to own the road.

Any company (including startups) can come up with a Quality Kit to beef the existing 7 Speed IF they do the work. We could see such offering from Brabus, MKB, Renntech, or fill in name here.

Let us hope that the Merc Tuners are aware that the "German Hotrod Crazy" is much more alive than just 5 years ago. They should be listening and bring a Builtproof Kit to market if the we provide enough customer demand.

RossN

It can be strengthened, it's just not here yet. Mercedes maynot bring the beefed up version for 3-4 more years because the engines and trannys have development cycles just like bodystyles do. If it's not here now....

We need a White Paper on the new 722.9 7 speed to understand the limits more thoroughly. For instance, constant load, spike load, rpm, heat, etc...