Supercharger for AMG 63s (M156)
#51
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S600TT, R350
IMO a cetrifugal SuperCharger will be a better suit for the C63 for the following reasons:
1. Smoother and wider TQ curve "Most of the time lower TQ numbers than a roots style" (Easier on Tranny)
2. Less heat (Intake Air Temps & Engine Bay) and the ability to run an Air 2 Air intercooler.
3. Allow to run more Boost since peak boost will happen up there in the RPM band. Usually peak boost after peak TQ won't require running that much less timing up top.
Summary: You can run 6-7psi on 11.3 C/R with a centri while only 4-5psi with a Roots style while retaining almost the same timing due to the way it builds boost and lower IAT. It will also be easier on the tranny due to the smoother wider and higher in the RPM range TQ peak. The end result would be a larger HP gains than the roots style with almost the same Peak TQ numbers.
1. Smoother and wider TQ curve "Most of the time lower TQ numbers than a roots style" (Easier on Tranny)
2. Less heat (Intake Air Temps & Engine Bay) and the ability to run an Air 2 Air intercooler.
3. Allow to run more Boost since peak boost will happen up there in the RPM band. Usually peak boost after peak TQ won't require running that much less timing up top.
Summary: You can run 6-7psi on 11.3 C/R with a centri while only 4-5psi with a Roots style while retaining almost the same timing due to the way it builds boost and lower IAT. It will also be easier on the tranny due to the smoother wider and higher in the RPM range TQ peak. The end result would be a larger HP gains than the roots style with almost the same Peak TQ numbers.
Valid points about Roots, but we are not talking about Roots.
Kenne Belle blower is twin-screw.
It does not matter anyway, because there is no room to mount anything on the side or bottom of the engine.
The only way to add FI is to replace intake manifold with blower built into it.
#52
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E-ZGO 53hp., 1999 E 430 sport, 2004 E 55, 2008 Tahoe LTZ on 24"s
To properly supercharge the 63 will take at least $35K to produce 650hp. Do it right, from the start.
The 63 is truly a work of art in its naturally aspirated form, the induction system is fantastic, with dual throttle bodies and dual variable length runners and don't forget the variable cam timing. It was intended to be a large displacement high reving engine with a smooth power band, and it is.
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'06 E55, '05 SLK55, a few others
rflow I agree 100%, Who will buy a (guess) $15K supercharger kit for a 70 hp gain? If you want 70 more HP you can get it for $600 and less than 3 hours to install.
To properly supercharge the 63 will take at least $35K to produce 650hp. Do it right, from the start.
The 63 is truly a work of art in its naturally aspirated form, the induction system is fantastic, with dual throttle bodies and dual variable length runners and don't forget the variable cam timing. It was intended to be a large displacement high reving engine with a smooth power band, and it is.
To properly supercharge the 63 will take at least $35K to produce 650hp. Do it right, from the start.
The 63 is truly a work of art in its naturally aspirated form, the induction system is fantastic, with dual throttle bodies and dual variable length runners and don't forget the variable cam timing. It was intended to be a large displacement high reving engine with a smooth power band, and it is.
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E63,,,not any more,,,BMW X5 50i
Depends on how much R&D Vadim and Co. are willing to eat. This is why it's so cheap to put a blower on a (insert big three model designation), VS a MB anything. There just isn't the same market. I'd be happy with a reliable 600 WHP from a 55 that didn't take NOS and 30K. Screw the 63, there are lots more 55K cars out there (for now), and more mod friendly.
To make it clear, mid-range to me is between 2000-5000.
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'05 C55(sold)'05 E55(sold)'06 911C4S(sold)'06 ML350 '06 CLS55(sold),buncha slo bikes
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IMO...It's too bad that AMG went ahead and decided to make their own engine from scratch. As cool as the high revving 6.2l V8 is, I would have MUCH rather seen AMG work their magic on a 550 engine. Just imagine if they increased the capacity and supercharged...or even better...turbo charged it. If they were able to add 200hp to the old 500 engine, they could have probably gotten 600hp out of the 550 engine, plus ridiculous tq numbers. Too bad...
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02 996 Turbo, 05 CLK55 AMG
intersting... in future 6.2 will get supercharger or turbos... i heard that AMG wasn't very happy with this engine as they axpected more from it ... did anyone heard of new SLR ? I heard that new one will be made by Mercedes AMG, and the top of the line model will have 1000 HP... sorry for speaking out of topic...
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S600TT, R350
IMO...It's too bad that AMG went ahead and decided to make their own engine from scratch. As cool as the high revving 6.2l V8 is, I would have MUCH rather seen AMG work their magic on a 550 engine. Just imagine if they increased the capacity and supercharged...or even better...turbo charged it. If they were able to add 200hp to the old 500 engine, they could have probably gotten 600hp out of the 550 engine, plus ridiculous tq numbers. Too bad...
Twin turbo rumors for 6.2L are floating around, but I just do not see where they are going to put them into current W211 chassis. It is possible that W212 engine compartment will be designed to allow extra clearance. My guess is 2010 before it hits US.
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Any new update Vadim? Just trying to keep up on the news. I will be very interested. I am trying to pick up a S63 very soon.
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The owner of E63 that was going to be our prototype car, had a change of circumstances and can not go ahead with a project.
I need 63 owner who will be interested in being the prototype car.
I need 63 owner who will be interested in being the prototype car.
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2010 RRS ; BMW K1200R; 14 E350 ; 14 RRS on order
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I would pay Lots of $$$ - if done the right way
Vadim:
I am interested but with some caveats because I would only do it if its done the right way - which is very hard. I have done a custom twin screw before and that is definitely the right choice for this big engine (don't even think about a centrifigal or turbo with this size engine). 700+ whp (dyno) is very realistic and would be worth $10-15K grand (my estimate of end cost in volume with pistons, supercharger, manifold and tune). Install is probably another 2-3K. Yes, expensive but so is the car.
So, here is what I want to see and why:
1) You have to get low comp pistons made or else the project isn't worth it. At 11:1, you have no breathing room. Sure, you can try to stay safe by limiting boost to 3-4 pounds, but even then you will have to detune the engine (to make the a/f pig rich to avoid blowing the engine). Maybe you get 70, maybe not; but I promise you the detuning required will kill gas mileage and your torque curve will look bad. And you may blow a few engines before you get it right - a very expensive R&D project. In any event, with this compression and a supercharger, the car will not perform the way it was intended to across the entire curve. Low comp pistons will add a couple grand to the project but the benefits in terms of range of tune and ability to really use the supercharger in the range it was intended will far outweigh the cost. I would go with 9.5:1 - that should allow 10-12 pounds and get you to 600-700whp (a very rough off the cuff estimate) with very little risk, and at 9.5 you still have a very responsive efficient engine. Below 9.5 you probably want a custom cam grind and that gets $$$$$.
2) You have to get a custom tune for this because you need more fuel in at a minimum. Maybe the motec will automatically compensate, but I wouldn't want to bet on that.
3) As others have noted, you want to do an intercooler (although may not be needed with modest boost; hard to say with such a high comp engine what would happen without it). Under my high boost scenario, an IC is an absolute must. Autorotor makes a very nice air-water IC in tubes that can (and should) be integrated into the intake manifold. The tubes are relatively cheap (the custom manifold, maybe not so cheap).
4) To make a good size twin screw fit, you are going to need a custom manifold and place the twin screw in the V. The manifold will be the hardest part in my opinion.
Some additional comments:
1) I think most of us who paid 100K for our car are going to want this done absolutely right. A $10K spend to get a couple hundred more HP is a good trade if its safe, tested, and corners are not cut. So don't cut corners, and do it the way I suggest.
2) Kenne Belle is great but unless they are going to provide the whole package (manifold, pistons, and tune), I would go straight to autorotor and get your superchargers. You get more options (sizes and bypass options) vs. KB, but more importantly KB is just going to mark up on top of your markup (or the other way around) and make the project unnecessarily expensive. KB gets their sc from autorotor as I recall, so should you unless KB is providing some really serious value add. Otherwise, your cost is going to skyrocket.
3) If you insist on going without low comp pistons, don't bother with a twin screw. If you look at the psi x efficiency charts, you will see that in the low psi range, there is not that much difference between a twin screw vs. the cheaper eaton supercharger. Might as well go cheap if you are going cheap!
4) At the power I am contemplating, a quaife ATB is pretty important and unfortunately not included on the car. Might want to set up a joint buy program or offer a discount through them. Just an idea.
I am interested but with some caveats because I would only do it if its done the right way - which is very hard. I have done a custom twin screw before and that is definitely the right choice for this big engine (don't even think about a centrifigal or turbo with this size engine). 700+ whp (dyno) is very realistic and would be worth $10-15K grand (my estimate of end cost in volume with pistons, supercharger, manifold and tune). Install is probably another 2-3K. Yes, expensive but so is the car.
So, here is what I want to see and why:
1) You have to get low comp pistons made or else the project isn't worth it. At 11:1, you have no breathing room. Sure, you can try to stay safe by limiting boost to 3-4 pounds, but even then you will have to detune the engine (to make the a/f pig rich to avoid blowing the engine). Maybe you get 70, maybe not; but I promise you the detuning required will kill gas mileage and your torque curve will look bad. And you may blow a few engines before you get it right - a very expensive R&D project. In any event, with this compression and a supercharger, the car will not perform the way it was intended to across the entire curve. Low comp pistons will add a couple grand to the project but the benefits in terms of range of tune and ability to really use the supercharger in the range it was intended will far outweigh the cost. I would go with 9.5:1 - that should allow 10-12 pounds and get you to 600-700whp (a very rough off the cuff estimate) with very little risk, and at 9.5 you still have a very responsive efficient engine. Below 9.5 you probably want a custom cam grind and that gets $$$$$.
2) You have to get a custom tune for this because you need more fuel in at a minimum. Maybe the motec will automatically compensate, but I wouldn't want to bet on that.
3) As others have noted, you want to do an intercooler (although may not be needed with modest boost; hard to say with such a high comp engine what would happen without it). Under my high boost scenario, an IC is an absolute must. Autorotor makes a very nice air-water IC in tubes that can (and should) be integrated into the intake manifold. The tubes are relatively cheap (the custom manifold, maybe not so cheap).
4) To make a good size twin screw fit, you are going to need a custom manifold and place the twin screw in the V. The manifold will be the hardest part in my opinion.
Some additional comments:
1) I think most of us who paid 100K for our car are going to want this done absolutely right. A $10K spend to get a couple hundred more HP is a good trade if its safe, tested, and corners are not cut. So don't cut corners, and do it the way I suggest.
2) Kenne Belle is great but unless they are going to provide the whole package (manifold, pistons, and tune), I would go straight to autorotor and get your superchargers. You get more options (sizes and bypass options) vs. KB, but more importantly KB is just going to mark up on top of your markup (or the other way around) and make the project unnecessarily expensive. KB gets their sc from autorotor as I recall, so should you unless KB is providing some really serious value add. Otherwise, your cost is going to skyrocket.
3) If you insist on going without low comp pistons, don't bother with a twin screw. If you look at the psi x efficiency charts, you will see that in the low psi range, there is not that much difference between a twin screw vs. the cheaper eaton supercharger. Might as well go cheap if you are going cheap!
4) At the power I am contemplating, a quaife ATB is pretty important and unfortunately not included on the car. Might want to set up a joint buy program or offer a discount through them. Just an idea.
Last edited by defeasible; 09-23-2007 at 12:42 AM.
#74
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Wonder what compression the C63 is using? Doesn't sound like it, but if they detuned er using lower compression we could swipe the pistons out of one of them. Still would have AMG pistons matched to an AMG block.
Just 2 cents from the guy who 1st swiped the SLR cams and pi$$ed off the boys in Deutschland.
Edit** Just checked...it's 11.3 to 1, bummer.
Just 2 cents from the guy who 1st swiped the SLR cams and pi$$ed off the boys in Deutschland.
Edit** Just checked...it's 11.3 to 1, bummer.
Last edited by Jakpro1; 09-23-2007 at 10:39 AM.
#75
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Jeff