E63 2008 Head Bolts / Potential Purchase
#1
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E63 2008 Head Bolts / Potential Purchase
I currently own a E55 2001. I love the car so reliable and fun to drive but it's time to upgrade. I also own a BMW X3 M Package that I also love to drive. After reading countless threads about M156 and head bolts I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy. The car that I'm looking at only has about 40k miles on it and in pristine condition, should I be worried about the head bolts. I called the dealer and I'm waiting for a call back to give me an idea what they will charge to at least crack her open and see if they need to be replaced / or have them change out the head bolts in one shot. I also called a Indy shop and I'm waiting for them to call me back with a price.
What are your thoughts?
What are your thoughts?
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
I currently own a E55 2001. I love the car so reliable and fun to drive but it's time to upgrade. I also own a BMW X3 M Package that I also love to drive. After reading countless threads about M156 and head bolts I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy. The car that I'm looking at only has about 40k miles on it and in pristine condition, should I be worried about the head bolts. I called the dealer and I'm waiting for a call back to give me an idea what they will charge to at least crack her open and see if they need to be replaced / or have them change out the head bolts in one shot. I also called a Indy shop and I'm waiting for them to call me back with a price.
What are your thoughts?
What are your thoughts?
You might be fine but in the end it wasn't worth the worry for me.
#4
Junior Member
I bought an E63 with ~85k miles in January where the agreement was that I would have a 3rd party MB Dealer do a PPI and the seller agreed to cover any costs / issues found. I had the dealer specifically check for any signs of head bolt issues, he pulled the valve covers because the VCGs needed replacing anyway, took a look at cams, lifters, everything and said it was good to go.
I walked out of the deal thinking I got into a fairly low-risk AMG and 3 days later I got a "top off coolant" warning. There aren't any signs that coolant is getting somewhere it shouldn't and there are no exterior leaks of any kind - the dealer and an indy shop with a lot of experience with these motors are both scratching their head. I've been asked to keep an eye on it...
Since January I've spent roughly $1K in maintenance getting other items sorted out that have seemingly just gone bad in the past 3 months and weren't issues back in January. This has been a mixture of indy shop work and me just buying parts and youtubing and performing them myself.
The point is if you're looking for trouble free ownership there are probably better options. If you go into this deal understanding the risks and that this will likely be less trouble free than your E55, then you'll be fine!
I walked out of the deal thinking I got into a fairly low-risk AMG and 3 days later I got a "top off coolant" warning. There aren't any signs that coolant is getting somewhere it shouldn't and there are no exterior leaks of any kind - the dealer and an indy shop with a lot of experience with these motors are both scratching their head. I've been asked to keep an eye on it...
Since January I've spent roughly $1K in maintenance getting other items sorted out that have seemingly just gone bad in the past 3 months and weren't issues back in January. This has been a mixture of indy shop work and me just buying parts and youtubing and performing them myself.
The point is if you're looking for trouble free ownership there are probably better options. If you go into this deal understanding the risks and that this will likely be less trouble free than your E55, then you'll be fine!
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Bahnstormer (09-18-2018)
#5
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I just bought a 2008 E63 with 46,000 miles on it and I made sure part of the purchase agreement was to have the head bolts changed. MB offers a revised head bolt and they are relatively cheap, it's the labor that will get you. I've heard as much as $5k-$7k from the stealership.
You might be fine but in the end it wasn't worth the worry for me.
You might be fine but in the end it wasn't worth the worry for me.
#6
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#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
I've personally owned (3) AMGs with the M156 engine, and I've never experienced any head bolt issues. Their are owners, that have experienced these issues and a lot that haven't. My advise is understand the risk you take in buying this car, keep $$$$ on hand to repair any issues that arise.
And remember as these cars age, they will be require maintenance. It's all the little issues like old gaskets and oil rings, that creates many oil leaks.
And remember as these cars age, they will be require maintenance. It's all the little issues like old gaskets and oil rings, that creates many oil leaks.
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#8
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Thread Starter
I bought an E63 with ~85k miles in January where the agreement was that I would have a 3rd party MB Dealer do a PPI and the seller agreed to cover any costs / issues found. I had the dealer specifically check for any signs of head bolt issues, he pulled the valve covers because the VCGs needed replacing anyway, took a look at cams, lifters, everything and said it was good to go.
I walked out of the deal thinking I got into a fairly low-risk AMG and 3 days later I got a "top off coolant" warning. There aren't any signs that coolant is getting somewhere it shouldn't and there are no exterior leaks of any kind - the dealer and an indy shop with a lot of experience with these motors are both scratching their head. I've been asked to keep an eye on it...
Since January I've spent roughly $1K in maintenance getting other items sorted out that have seemingly just gone bad in the past 3 months and weren't issues back in January. This has been a mixture of indy shop work and me just buying parts and youtubing and performing them myself.
The point is if you're looking for trouble free ownership there are probably better options. If you go into this deal understanding the risks and that this will likely be less trouble free than your E55, then you'll be fine!
I walked out of the deal thinking I got into a fairly low-risk AMG and 3 days later I got a "top off coolant" warning. There aren't any signs that coolant is getting somewhere it shouldn't and there are no exterior leaks of any kind - the dealer and an indy shop with a lot of experience with these motors are both scratching their head. I've been asked to keep an eye on it...
Since January I've spent roughly $1K in maintenance getting other items sorted out that have seemingly just gone bad in the past 3 months and weren't issues back in January. This has been a mixture of indy shop work and me just buying parts and youtubing and performing them myself.
The point is if you're looking for trouble free ownership there are probably better options. If you go into this deal understanding the risks and that this will likely be less trouble free than your E55, then you'll be fine!
Thanks brother !
#9
Senior Member
I would research Indy shops as well. I am also close to purchasing a W211 E63 and will absolutely get the head bolts done. I have been quoted $1500 at Indy shops and also know someone who paid about that amount from an Indy. I am not sure, but I thought I've heard that dealers try to avoid replacing headbolts without a known issue. That could means its too late IMO. Anyway, I have heard that they prefer to do the lifters/adjusters and possibly cams at the same time because those can wear prematurely. This might be the reason for the high price you were quoted.
Good luck!
Good luck!
#10
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
What I can't figure out is how you can "inspect" head bolts. They were a weaker design/manufacturing defect. After some time in 2011, they fixed it with a new part number and stronger bolts. In my mind, all old ones would be suspect. They would look fine until one day the head gasket blows and it seems like when that happens, it takes out the rest of the engine and then you're looking at 25k for a new engine or 10k for a used one.
If you go over to the C63 forum, there's a big debate as to whether it should be done properly by replacing the head gasket which is the high cost dealer method, or just replacing one bolt at a time as the indy method. The bolts are only a few hundred, it's the labor that pushes it to 1-1.5k. The one bolt at a time seems to also hold up so seems like the cheapest method out. Some on here even have the head bolts being replaced as part of the sale. Many threads on here about people just driving normally and the head bolts go and that's the end of the engine. I guess it all boils down to whether you feel lucky or not.
If you go over to the C63 forum, there's a big debate as to whether it should be done properly by replacing the head gasket which is the high cost dealer method, or just replacing one bolt at a time as the indy method. The bolts are only a few hundred, it's the labor that pushes it to 1-1.5k. The one bolt at a time seems to also hold up so seems like the cheapest method out. Some on here even have the head bolts being replaced as part of the sale. Many threads on here about people just driving normally and the head bolts go and that's the end of the engine. I guess it all boils down to whether you feel lucky or not.
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armaniE55 (04-26-2018)
#11
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@cetialpha5 This
you feel lucky or not.
I'm thinking I might just bite the bullet and have the Stealership crack her open and inspect my Head Bolts and roll the dice if I'll need the updated head bolts. I Imaged at the point I'll need a new gasket correct?
you feel lucky or not.
I'm thinking I might just bite the bullet and have the Stealership crack her open and inspect my Head Bolts and roll the dice if I'll need the updated head bolts. I Imaged at the point I'll need a new gasket correct?
#12
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2008 E350 4Matic, 2011 E350 4matic
The point was that you don't "inspect" head bolts. I'm not even sure if you can reuse them as some bolts are torque to yield or one time use bolts. They're only a few hundred dollars for a set too so you'd just put in the newer ones which were stronger. I'd just roll the dice and have an indy do it and replace one bolt at a time so you won't have to replace the head gasket. I think $1500 would give me enough peace of mind. Or for complete peace of mind, spend the 5k+ at the dealership and have them replace both the head bolts and the head gasket.
#13
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2001 E320 Wagon, 2006 LBZ Silverado, 2007 E63 (sold), 2001 E55 (sold)
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ml#post7308616.
#14
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Replacing one head bolt at a time is probably the most cost effective way to go, IMHO. Because the last thing you want to do is replaced the head gaskets.
Replacing them requires that the heads be removed, thus camshafts has to be removed, and timing has to be reset. And that equals $$$$
Replacing them requires that the heads be removed, thus camshafts has to be removed, and timing has to be reset. And that equals $$$$
#16
I just bought a an E63 back in December 2017 and put a total of 15mi. on it before started taking it apart due to a 1200 rpm idle. I turns out the Intake Manifold throttle plenum had deteriorated causing an opening which would lead to a high idle. I too took the preventive measure of replacing my Headbolts for my 07' E63 w/94k mi. but once I removed the Intake Manifold, I could see not only see Oil pooled up sitting in the rear of the Intake which led me to have the IM refurbished by RMT, but also see carbon build-up in the Intake runners of the heads. I then toyed with the idea of renting all the tools necessary for using the Walnut Shell method, but ultimately decided to remove the Heads instead. Fortunately I did too as the guys working on the heads (Xtreme Cylinder Heads) informed me that 8 of 16 Intake Valves were bent! I wouldn't have known otherwise until of course a much bigger and more costly problem were to occur down the road resulting from those 8 bent valves being pushed harder!!! I have yet to get the Heads back and am waiting to install but in the meantime I've rebuilt the front end with new Thrust arms, Air Spring Bushings, refurbished RMT Air Springs, Adjustable Upper Control Arms, ball joints, with new bolts all around.
With the heads off, I took the time to clean the tops of the positions using Acetone soaked blue shop towels with Nylon scraping tools that allow you to press the soaked towel into the carbon followed by scraping, vacuuming, then more soaking and rubbing to clean the pistons as well as the walls and rims of the piston wall. I should mention that if you do this the piston and walls will be very dry afterwards so I applied some oil from a Pump Can to the circular. Edges of the pistons and with a rubber glove made sure every surface was lightly slicked with oil. Since the Oil applied was NOT a lubricant like WD40 which can flow past the seals into the oil Pump and corrode the internals, my thinking was that it was better to leave it lubed with oil while exposed. When I install the heads, I'll do a quick wipe down and repeat for good measure.
I then cleaned the engine bay below the heads where oil has leaked from the valve covers from the previous owner. Further, I replaced the knock Sensor, refreshed the seals on the passenger side coolant shutoff valve.
I custom fabricated a Catch Can by splicing into the EGR valve using a 1" dia Heating Hose from the rear with a 90 degree bend running passenger side between the headlight and Air Suspension pod, to the Can placed there and the return winding back with 3 90 degree bends around the Pod then spliced onto the OEM valve using Oetker Clamps at the bends and onto the OEM rear Mount and OEM Valve itself. Being that the can itself is from a Husky Air Compressor, I chose to use worms clamps to the can since I intend on renewing it in future.
Also just replaced the Steering Pump because the Pulley was thrashed due most likely to it deforming from oil spilling out of the valve Cover! On the list of to-do's are replacing the Cam Timing o'ring seals, coolant & oil temp sensors, Air Hat Gaskets, renewed rubber vacuum hoses and elbows, new cabin and air intake filters, gaskets for thermostat, valve covers, oil filter, intake Manifold, exhaust Headers, Head Gaskets, install the new black version valve tappets into the Heads. In taking things apart intitially, one of the Ignition Coils housing was broke and another was not "AMG"-so I went ahead and got 2 new ones. All in all, I've spent about $4k in Parts alone. I don't want to think of what I would have had to fork out if I had the Stealership do it!! I can't wait to get this thing on the road!!!
With the heads off, I took the time to clean the tops of the positions using Acetone soaked blue shop towels with Nylon scraping tools that allow you to press the soaked towel into the carbon followed by scraping, vacuuming, then more soaking and rubbing to clean the pistons as well as the walls and rims of the piston wall. I should mention that if you do this the piston and walls will be very dry afterwards so I applied some oil from a Pump Can to the circular. Edges of the pistons and with a rubber glove made sure every surface was lightly slicked with oil. Since the Oil applied was NOT a lubricant like WD40 which can flow past the seals into the oil Pump and corrode the internals, my thinking was that it was better to leave it lubed with oil while exposed. When I install the heads, I'll do a quick wipe down and repeat for good measure.
I then cleaned the engine bay below the heads where oil has leaked from the valve covers from the previous owner. Further, I replaced the knock Sensor, refreshed the seals on the passenger side coolant shutoff valve.
I custom fabricated a Catch Can by splicing into the EGR valve using a 1" dia Heating Hose from the rear with a 90 degree bend running passenger side between the headlight and Air Suspension pod, to the Can placed there and the return winding back with 3 90 degree bends around the Pod then spliced onto the OEM valve using Oetker Clamps at the bends and onto the OEM rear Mount and OEM Valve itself. Being that the can itself is from a Husky Air Compressor, I chose to use worms clamps to the can since I intend on renewing it in future.
Also just replaced the Steering Pump because the Pulley was thrashed due most likely to it deforming from oil spilling out of the valve Cover! On the list of to-do's are replacing the Cam Timing o'ring seals, coolant & oil temp sensors, Air Hat Gaskets, renewed rubber vacuum hoses and elbows, new cabin and air intake filters, gaskets for thermostat, valve covers, oil filter, intake Manifold, exhaust Headers, Head Gaskets, install the new black version valve tappets into the Heads. In taking things apart intitially, one of the Ignition Coils housing was broke and another was not "AMG"-so I went ahead and got 2 new ones. All in all, I've spent about $4k in Parts alone. I don't want to think of what I would have had to fork out if I had the Stealership do it!! I can't wait to get this thing on the road!!!
Last edited by E63007; 05-03-2018 at 11:00 PM.
#17
I walked out of the deal thinking I got into a fairly low-risk AMG and 3 days later I got a "top off coolant" warning. There aren't any signs that coolant is getting somewhere it shouldn't and there are no exterior leaks of any kind - the dealer and an indy shop with a lot of experience with these motors are both scratching their head. I've been asked to keep an eye on it...
#18
Junior Member
New headbolts, gaskets, lifter buckets later it runs like a champ. Thankfully the cams looked ok.
#19
MBWorld Fanatic!
Last year, I had a coolant issue and it turned out to be a pin hole in the radiator. I didn’t notice any coolant leaks, as metal contracts in the cold, and expands in the heat. So I took it to my shop after a 30 minutes drive, they hoisted it up removed the engine belly pans and quickly discovered the leak.
I would recommend that they perform a pressure test on the coolant system, before examining for broken head bolts, as a hole in a radiator hose or radiator is much cheaper.
I wonder if they used an impact driver first, and a breaker bar second to removed your head bolts, as that could explain why the bolts snapped off.
A impact driver could exert too much torque, and snap of the head bolts.
You need to use a breaker bar to break them loose first then a impact driver second.
I would recommend that they perform a pressure test on the coolant system, before examining for broken head bolts, as a hole in a radiator hose or radiator is much cheaper.
I wonder if they used an impact driver first, and a breaker bar second to removed your head bolts, as that could explain why the bolts snapped off.
A impact driver could exert too much torque, and snap of the head bolts.
You need to use a breaker bar to break them loose first then a impact driver second.
Last edited by Yuille36; 07-07-2020 at 10:06 AM.