tw2

I would say so, plus reliability. I would say it is worth it too.

Unless there are back to back dyno's of equal length long tubes vs non-equal length long tubes, I remain skeptical. Anything less than 5whp is irrelevant. Exhaust pulses travel very fast, you would have to have an absolutely perfect merge and precision tested setup to gain the benefits of pulse spacing. Making the length the approximate same doesn't necessarily give you the scavenging benefits. Race teams spend millions on R&D for this.

Alex L

tw2

I don't know your background. I was assuming a local exhaust shop trying to make the best of it using good intentions. Unfortunately a proper equal length setup with real results is likely not feasible for most of us. The expertise is not common. Do you have a best guess on power improvement over stock headers?

BRH AMG

Then you probably should not comment. I installed MBH LT headers as the first performance modification on my car and picked up 51 RWHP.

failboat

tw2

This is a discussion board. So I shouldn't comment because I don't know the life story of every member? Very few people here are master custom fabricators, obviously you are.
And are your MBH equal length with perfect scavenging?

Fountain35

Alex,
Do you make or sell your headers? Sounds like it might be profitable to do so, just saying.
I know where Bedfordshire is, but have never been there. I plan on going back in a year or so. I actually want to go look at HMS Victory..

Fountain35

Sure he should, we are all trying to learn from others who have experience or knowledge. I think you kind of made tw2's point.

How was the fit on the MBH headers and was the wall thickness adequate? Any "tinny" noise I hear sometimes occours with the Chinese stuff?

Fountain35

Think about that, the Kleeman headers are good for what 30 whp ? The EL headers picked up another 50 whp? That tells me the EL headers are a step up in flow and scavenging.

BRH AMG

I had only installed the headers at that time, as well as the adapter pipes that were supplied. that eliminated the primary cats.

BRH AMG

Alex has a highly modified car, and I believe he has done all his own work on his car. I also have a highly modified car and have done all the work on my car. What headers do you have on your car?
Does somebody with no experience with these mods have a better idea what works the best on these cars. "And are your MBH equal length with perfect scavenging." NO, but my car still makes more than 50
HP. more than yours.

tw2

You seem quite insecure about your skills and your car. I don't know why. You seem to be threatened by me for some reason. I have a very mildly modified car, all my mods are in my signature (like most people to save time wasting in threads, not to show off), I currently have stock headers. I am 100% happy with my car. I did all the research, I had all the options and what you read is what I did, I would not have done it differently. I do plan to possibly get some custom made long tube headers fabricated locally in the next 1-2 years. In the meantime I am very comfortable with my car and it's performance, it suits me well. There will always be someone with a faster car, always. Your car probably makes much more than 50whp than mine, I have no idea what mods you have.

You assume you know what mods I have experience with just because I don't have them listed in my signature for my E55. This isn't my first car. Since you seem to want to prove you are better than me (which I am fine with) I have wired in standalone ecu's, sensors and tuned them, I have made intakes, upgraded cams, designed exhausts, designed and made turbo kits, replaced clutches, rebuilt engines, ported heads, made custom intake manifolds, designed fuel systems and plently of boring repairs and upgrades to suspension, brakes and a whole lot of other stuff. I decided a long time ago that I was not interested in welding as I believed that it required many years of practice and expense and I was happier paying someone to do a much better job than I could ever hope to achieve. My knowledge of long tubes consists of four books with 1-2 chapters dedicated to header theory and countless hours reading on the internet (for better or worse). Nothing more, nothing less. So far I can see your foray into header design theory and fabrication has been to pay money to MBH and I guess hopefully you installed them.

Unless you or someone else here has back to back dyno's of equal length vs non-equal length headers on the M113K engine then I guess none of us are entitled to discuss it. Most doctors don't have cancer, it doesn't stop them knowing more about it than their patients.

BRH AMG

No,No and, No. I, like you, am very happy with my car. The headers, the modified intercooler, the 82 MM Throttle body and the other things I have done to my
E55. I have made headers before and know the work that goes into getting the desired result. MBH headers are the best available for these cars. I'm not getting into a
pissing match with you. I have made a damn good living working in the professional racing industry for over 30 years. Championships are won on the racetrack not on
the internet. I work on the quickest and fastest accelerating cars on the planet. Good day.

tw2

That's a shame as you seem to be quite knowledgeable I would still like to focus on the subject at hand if you are willing. My argument is simply that tuned longtube headers are very difficult to develop for most people here vs off the shelf "equal length" longtubes. We are talking street cars with occasional track days, not racing cars. I believe the expense would be great and the gains although tangible would be minimal. My understanding is that aside from a whole pile of very complex calculations there is a great deal of experience required in not just fabrication, but what works and what doesn't, and that like most car parts there are trade off's in the torque curve depending on what is focussed on.

tlambert

BRH AMG

Yes, that's why those race teams you mentioned spend those millions of dollars.

BRH AMG

Yes

tw2

Good to know. Thanks.

tlambert

Alex L

I make EL headers but I wouldn't be able to compete with Chinese / budget sets as my costs are quite high due to time I spend making them. I am very particular and use hardware components from companies like Burns or BTB Exhausts partly because their stuff is perfectly made and partly due to not being set for tube forming/swaging just yet. This adds to the expense but also makes for a very smooth flowing exhaust system which helps get the most out of the engine.

Thanks. I wouldn't be able to do everything just by myself - the project required a lot of research, knowledge and skill. Weistec built my engine after it was Darton sleeved by Steve @ RED. I've had help from a local CNC shop and a friend mechanic and terrorised a lot of people for advice. It was great to see it all coming along and work in the end though - it wasn't a walk in the park type build.

Alex L

I wouldn't consider a dyno graph made by somebody elsewhere a be all / end all in headers decision process. Something that worked for one car may not have the same effect on another and there's generally a lot of parameters other than headers that affect the flow.

What I would rather do is follow the common knowledge and sense in exhaust gas flow and choose headers as close to perfect as possible. Or if you think you can make them yourself - which is not that difficult - this would ultimately mean spending a lot more time on the fit up than any commercial fabricator / contractor out there would. It is exactly what I did. Originally I wanted to buy a set of headers from a well known company in Italy but they raised their price by 35% and wouldn't honour the previous quote. I thought 'screw you, how hard could it possibly be?', bought a welder, some tube and a few weeks later made my own set. I took a short TIG welding course couple of years prior to but this was my first welding project. Looking at making another version of headers for the M113K and they would still have to be of equal length. This is a fundamental principle and even if there's only 5whp to be had over a un-EL set, I'm not cutting corners ;-)

tlambert

Notdke9fdkfjekrjrkj123

"I'm not getting into a
pissing match with you. I have made a damn good living working in the professional racing industry for over 30 years. Championships are won on the racetrack not on
the internet. I work on the quickest and fastest accelerating cars on the planet. Good day."

ReplyThis must be the most humble statement i have ever read ;-)

MSG 55G

MSG 55G