joseyu

Same here, if the next generation M5 ends up being a better car then the W213 E63, I might think about going back to BMW.

PeterUbers

E39 is my favorite m5 chassis and timeless good looks... Would love to have an M5 one day

LFC09

^^ my dream car. Loved it.
Had her for 8 years and 200000km.
Wonderful engine and transmission.

boostorbust

If it comes in wagon then I am in for a new one even if I have to do a 3rd seat retrofit again!

I wish Benz would allow paint to sample colors, their color choices are terrible

viren.89

Benz never had shapes to compliment outrageous colors like -Orange or fire red on their E63s -M3-M4-M5 you could get away with -Now RS7s

I really liked M5 V10 and was about to purchase it before I got my E55 but dealer himself and the bimmer forum told me not to get it cause it would've given lot of problems.

So ended up with E55.

I'm in market to change my car now- as soon as opportunity arrives all these will be on my list- Porsche Panamera Turbo (new gen coming out in March), RS7 , E63 (new gen coming out) M5 (new gen coming out -but only if AWD)

I don't think I'd buy a RWD only car again-this year's snow and mind you-only few days we've had snow-taught me a lot lol.

We got the entire winter in like few weeks or so lol

gaspam

its called compound boost and been around for a while... supercharger/ turbo combo used to provide instant low-end power with s/c and the more efficient turbos handling the mid to high end power range

now with turbos being more and more lag free, you can replace the s/c component of the compound boost set up with a smaller lag-free turbo for the low-end power and a bigger turbo for the highend power

2012 merc amg

Be curious to check out the new Panamera, I like those cars.

XCARTELX

Now that we're at the end of our Wagon lease I'll be sitting on my hands until the next one comes out. This next version should be a pretty significant change in the body, engine, transmission, and overall tech.

This, of course, will go out the window if Audi really does decide to bring it's RS6 Avant to the states.

2012 merc amg

Going to more than likely be around 1.5 years or so until the 2017 wagons come out.

E55 KEV

A Mercedes salesman who list himself as "AMG Specialist & Master Sales & Leasing Consultant" emailed me this:

... the new E63 will be coming out as a 2018 model in 2017

CliffJumper

Yes that's what I was told a few months ago as well.

I don't know whether that'll be both versions or if the wagon will be delayed another year.

Minimization

For long term tuning, I think you can't beat the 5.5 BT versus the newer 4.0 BT. Is Renntech getting ~700 hp out of the new C63 S?

They are finally really getting the MCT SpeedShift 7 down, now they will have to start over with the 9 speed.

PeterUbers

I don't know ... The 9 spd is going to build off the mistakes of the 7g tronic and the fundamentals of the 7 speed shift mct is basically a 7g tronic. Also I read somewhere that the 7g was built to go up to 9 speeds so they've had the hardware for years ... Good Execution I agree, is the key

I'm optimistic ... Can't wait for an amg with perfect trans

kponti

BMW 4.4l makes 650 to 700rwhp/600 - 650rwtq with just tune and exhaust.
Better designed engine with much more efficient turbo. Our 5.5 can hardly do much more than 620rwhp (I won't count Weistec 645rwhp since it has yet to be duplicated outside their shop and their own w3 turbo barely passed the 700 rwhp mark on pump gas).

I am hoping the 4.0 is a better engine, good flowing heads, cams, and better turbos. Even better designed than that in the current AMG GTS. Cos if not, expect the 2006 to 2007 transition for the w211 where they were rated about the same but the supercharged engines were faster than the newer NA ones.

gaspam

bmw S63TU its not a better designed engine, its bigger turbos and better tuning market.....the bmw S63TU motor starts off stock with 22psi while m157 start off at 14-18psi depending on model.... the power figures you are talking about are tunes that are running 26psi and they have been able to run stock turbos up to 30psi ,so clearly if we had turbos running 30psi we would be well over 700whp

we just have small turbos.. i believe ours are a/r .50 while the bmw is a/r.66, so the BMW turbo is 32% bigger

on stock turbos vs stock turbos , tuned M5 and e63 are running pretty much same times 10.9/130 so that really sucks for the bmw if it is lighter and has 30 to 80whp according to your numbers above

we are still limited by software, not hardware...

efiftyfizzle

This is true... none of these tuners have figured out how to get above 21-22psi in these cars. Same issue with the E55 where 17psi is the max you can hit without a map clamp.

kponti

Actually problem is not being able to get above 19psi. Its that our turbos are rather useless above that.


Also taking a hot film MAF; infinitely variable valve timed; High revving engine that actually make power up top; better overall volumetric efficiency to make a torque curve so flat I can park my lunch plate on it, etc etc and comparing to a speed density engine that peaks out completely at 5500 or less rpm even if you up the boost past 19psi and saying its all about the turbos may be reaching a bit there gaspam.
Yes out rather small snails is a hinderance, but the S63TU is a much better designed engine (not to be confused with a better or stronger engine)

gaspam

as mentioned above... if its a better engine and putting out 30-80whp more tuned (stock turbos) and weighing a few pounds less, then its odd that it runs the same times (~10.9/130).... if anything, that would indicate the opposite of better ..more HP less weight but not faster

and our turbos are useless above 19 psi because they are smaller... again, put the same size turbos on the M157 as the s63tu, tune it and m157 numbers will be higher ... i believe the renntech turbo upgrade is a 68mm compressor so its about the same as bmw's stock unit and m157 is getting 730+whp when running the bmw sized turbos.

and SD vs maf isnt a big deal unless you dont get retuned for new mods... and in case you didnt know, all the big HP gtr's have the stock MAF system converted to SD because MAF becomes a restriction hurdle.

for tuning high HP a SD setup is much easier and once we start getting a few m157's in the 1000whp level the s63tu crowd is going to wish they didnt have MAF setup

so yes, maf engine is better for a stock car or slightly tuned car that you want to drive in multiple drastically different altitudes, but if you want to heavily mod and run big big power like gtr's you will have to convert maf to SD just like the gtrs do at around 800whp

kponti

The F10 M5s are in the 9s already at full weight

You are right, converting to MAP makes it easier once you start going for really big power. However look back at the M113k engines also SD.....crickets in the 9s still (except a CLK with an engine swap, I do not count that since it is a good 400-500lbs lighter)

For a daily driver the M157 is phenomenal and more than enough. We are living in some wonderful times that 600-730 BHP and making over 20MPG on a 4300lb family sedan is considered "normal". That being said, the powercurve of the S63TU gives me all kinds of wood even though I like the overall E63 car better.
The M157 powercurve however looks just like a typical American big block all torque with choked up heads.

gaspam

we are talking stalk turbos... s63tu is not in 9's on stock turbos.... there is only one s63tu in 9's and its 9.99/140 on prepped track on pure turbos stage 2 turbo upgrade... you might as well compare that car to vasily's GAD M157 with 1115+awhp trapping 143+ on damp cold german airstip (he also trapped 140mph when he was still on renntech GTX2870r turbos running only 21psi- same boost as stock M5 turbos) or the GAD C63 with m157 transplant that ran 9.94 @142

we were talking stock turbos, and stock turbo m5's/m6s are maxing out at 10.9/130 about same as stock turbo'd m157's

dont get me wrong, s63tu is a great engine just like the m157, but its been seen when people get aggressive with modding both engines, the m157 has produced at least +294 whp more on vasily's car 1115 awhp than ram's 821 whp (allmotor_200) 9.99 sec m5

kponti

Vasily has a 5.8l, Allram is stock engined, Pure stage 1 turbo. Its more like running 9s with the Renntech/AMS/Weistec turbo upgrades and nothing like Vasily is running now.

gaspam

who cares if motor is stock? we are creating random stipulations now? ok and Allram had upgraded axels and stripped interior lol... vasily was full interior. you are the one that started bringing up upgraded turbo'd cars

vasily still ran 140mph trap on stock motor when he was on renntech turbos which is equal to allrams 140 trap

pp_performance has also run 10 flat on m157 with 140 traps and stock motor...

fact of the matter is there are more M157's trapping 140+ than s63tu's

but we were talking about stock turbo vs stock turbo originally and wanted to bring up a gutted highly modified 9.99sec M5, so i brought up a highly modified FULL interior e63 4matic (and if you listen to all the people on this board that would mean its WAYYY slower than it would of been if it was RWD )

and its not like comparing to AMS/renntech/weistec, because unlike kits for M157, the pure turbo kit for s63tu, at those power levels, has to run meth 100% of the time (so make sure to carry a bunch of meth on a road trip lol):

It is also important to note the meth injection here as the S63TU fuel system needs the methanol support at these levels and owners would be wise to use it until direct injection fuel system upgrades are available and commonplace on the platform.

kponti

Yep two great engines, one like a big block Muurican engine and the other like a sophisticated smaller higher revving European engine. I love both BTW!

Small excerpt about that run:
Didnt see your post. Yes I was mistaken, I thought the M5 was running stock turbos, it was Pure stage 1. So my bad on that. But my assertion still stands, a 4.0 with tech similar to the M157 5.5l will peak out easily at ~550rwhp

gaspam

what that tells me is that on street tires and on street, its about as usable power as the guys from "street outlaws" cars on street tires

keep in mind vasily's runs were on street tires not drag radials, so he can replicate the 140+mph trap runs on the street (even though they basically were done on the street)

screw991le

Waiting to see.......