Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6867965)

If you can wait a year, IMO the Speedriven standalone ECU will be the solution everyone has been looking for assuming you don't mind losing your cruise control. The cruise control lever is used to toggle between different performance maps which appear on the information display between the tachometer and the speedometer.

Originally Posted by kponti (Post 6867977)

And will also be the reason why it won't sell much for at least a few more years. No I do not use my cruise control much. However replacing my whole ecu seems like a bit much to technically not make any more power than I started with. Like a lot of people on this particular forum, I never planned to mod my car. 550hp was more than enough for a daily kid hauler. But the simplicity of a tune was too much to resist after a while. Then the bug bit and I did a few more lol.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6865744)

5) Catless down pipes that retain the factory crossmember. Contrary to what most aftermarket exhaust sales pitches would have you believe, the factory exhaust breathes extremely well. With factory turbos, most of the improvement with aftermarket down pipes comes from weight reduction. Don't even think about a turbo back pipe if you are retaining the factory turbos unless you enjoy throwing your money away.

Originally Posted by Romeo_f (Post 6868318)

You make an interesting claim here, how are you so sure about the gains of the turbo back over catless dp's? I'm currently debating between getting either one of them but the price difference is huge and there are no dyno's out there comparing them both, do you know something that we not? Is your source with this info trustworthy?

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6868106)

The standalone is about more than making additional power; it is all about getting it to the wheels in all gears without TCU interference. It also allows for different maps based upon variables such as fuel octane rating. In roughly half the country, premium is 93 octane, in the other half it is 91. You would also have a map for racing fuel.

However, it is clearly not for everyone, myself included at this point in time.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6868342)

"You make an interesting claim here, how are you so sure about the gains of the turbo back over catless dp's? I'm currently debating between getting either one of them but the price difference is huge and there are no dyno's out there comparing them both, do you know something that we not? Is your source with this info trustworthy?"


My source for this is Hartmut Fehyl at Renntech, with whom I've been fortunate enough to have had a couple of very extensive, technical, and educational conversations. The stock turbos on the M157 are relatively tiny and therefore do not benefit from the turbo back pipe. The limiting factor is the size of the turbo, not any differences in flow rate from the turbo back pipe. Take a good look at the oddly shaped, complex, difficult to manufacture double walled turbo back pipe that AMG puts on this car. Then look at Weistech's pipe. Which do you think is easier and cheaper to manufacture? If the aftermarket turbo back pipes were more optimal with the turbos installed on the M157, they would come with them from the factory.

Originally Posted by kponti (Post 6868346)

what if they are optimal for flow to 600bhp? And hamper flow above that like with aftermarket turbos or maybe even a tune?

Originally Posted by KLR CLS (Post 6868730)

I disagree with your points on the value of full turboback. Peak power gains may not be massively different from just "mid" style catless DPs, but power delivery and torque are way different. I've driven my friends custom "mid" pipe down pipes and my car with the full turbo back is way more responsive and feels like it makes alot more torque and carries it longer. You don't get the same fall off @ 5K rpm. Seems to carry to red line much stronger. The character has totally changed and feels much more agressive and violent. The real value problem with turbo back is the install cost for AWD vehicles since motor has to be dropped. On a RWD I highly recommend them. I will be coupling the DP's for a full 3" custom back half soon, then will do a dyno to see how it compares to my tune only dyno @ 589WHP.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6865744)

A TCU tune doesn't exist that will fix this problem. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has been able to crack the Bosch encryption for the TCU. These intermittent "lag" problems all originate from the TCU limiting the fun in the first three gears. These turbo engines produce so much torque relative to any NA cars from the past that something had to be done to protect the drive train from endless warranty claims and the resulting customer dissatisfaction. The faster that wet clutch locks up relative to mashing the pedal in lower gears, the greater the shock that is transmitted to the drive train. The torque multiplication in gears 1-3 is therefore limited by the algorithm in the TCU that monitors dozens of variables.

The car I owned previous to my current 2016 E63 was a 2014 E550 4MATIC. The E550 produces less HP and torque and has a torque converter. The combination of less torque and a torque converter (which delivers torque with greater smoothness and less shock) means that the TCU in the E550 can come equipped from the factory with a much less aggressive algorithm for drive train protection. Therefore, as I experienced when transitioning from the E550 to the E63, certain driving conditions resulted in more pronounced lag or delay when flooring the throttle pedal.

The solution for this problem with the turbo AMG cars is a standalone ECU. Speedriven has been developing this very product in conjunction with an ECU manufacturer in Europe for close to two years now. It is now available for M279 powered AMG's and will be alpha-tested this coming winter in the M157. However, you will lose your cruise control, so there is a compromise that comes with the standalone ECU. Also, be prepared to spend $$$ to strengthen the transmission at a minimum, and you will need strengthening of everything else between the transmission and the wheels if you start adding bigger turbos.

This TCU "problem" is the reason the AMS Alpha 9 is only 0.1 seconds quicker in the quarter than the Alpha 7. It is also the reason the Alpha 9 is also slower than the Alpha 7 from 0-60. Without a standalone ECU or a complete bypass of the factory EMS, you can install bigger turbos, stronger rods and pistons, and all the ancillary performance modifications you care to throw at this car and will only gain an edge in roll-on half mile or one mile passes, which is a pretty useless improvement outside of the realm of YouTube video hits and ego inflation.

If you choose not to go the standalone ECU route when it becomes available, the best mods for this car in descending order of importance are:

1) ECU Tune; pick your poison, Renntech, Alpha, and Speedriven are probably the top choices. Tunes are not rocket science, HP and torque improvements are contingent on how much the tuner wants to push the numbers. The "lesser" tunes will often result in more daily driver satisfaction because they don't push the TCU as much.

2) Improved intake volumetric efficiency i.e. AMS carbon intake system, Renntech carbon intake system (IMO the AMS is a better design).

3) Improved intercooler performance i.e. full AMS turbo cooler system. This is especially important if you track the car, make repeated 1/4 mile passes, or operate daily in a hot climate. The resultant heat soak kills performance in turbo cars.

5) Replacement transmission pan that improves fluid capacity and cooling. High transmission fluid temps are one of the variables that the TCU algorithm monitors. My preference is the Speedriven billet pan because the Weistech is cast aluminum. One crack from a rock and your MCT is toast.

5) Catless down pipes that retain the factory crossmember. Contrary to what most aftermarket exhaust sales pitches would have you believe, the factory exhaust breathes extremely well. With factory turbos, most of the improvement with aftermarket down pipes comes from weight reduction. Don't even think about a turbo back pipe if you are retaining the factory turbos unless you enjoy throwing your money away.

6) Replacing the exhaust resonator with an H pipe configuration along with lighter and better breathing mufflers. Almost zero HP difference here with factory turbos but you get more weight reduction and a properly designed H pipe will prevent drone. Again, the AMS exhaust with either their mufflers or the Renntech's would be good depending on your aural preferences.

After that, it is all about weight reduction. Lithium Ion batteries are an easy weight reducer i.e. Braille lithium Ions. This and exhaust are the first mods amateur motorcycle road racers like myself make for relatively dramatic weight reduction on liter bikes that start at over five hundred pounds dry. After replacing the two batteries with lithium ions, be prepared to start dropping big money for bespoke carbon, magnesium, aluminum, and titanium parts.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6868779)

Unless you and your friend's cars are mechanically and aftermarket identical except for the turbo back pipe, then any comparison is not really valid. Furthermore, "feel" and butt dyno is purely subjective, not objective. The placebo effect is very common in the world of aftermarket modifications. If you want to make a convincing case, you should have dynoed before the turbo back and then after with no other modifications. Also, as I have stated, whatever minor gains that may occur in peak HP with a turbo back pipe may come at the expense of low and midrange HP and torque, which is where these engines live most of their lives for those of us who use them as daily drivers. The expense on a 2014-2016 AWD is simply not justified with stock turbos.

Originally Posted by sleeperZ96BT (Post 6868869)

Not the same car as you all, but I will be doing a stock versus catted dp/catback before and after dyno in the next month or so on my 2013 E550. I'll be documenting it in the W212 section since it is on an E550 but can link it here. It will be my first mod and part of why I am doing it is the sound but also because on my older turbo cars there was quite a bit of power to be had upgrading the downpipes in particular both on the dyno and the track for me. We shall see, but I am doing it equally for sound and performance, and was given a great deal on it all so I had to do it :)


I'd like to do a tune but as far as I can tell, it's more for bragging rights for those that care about dyno numbers than it is for real world performance. And I see stories about turbo seals, more frequent spark plug replacements, etc. that just seems to make it more of a hassle than anything else. Just my .02.

Originally Posted by PeterUbers (Post 6868956)

Excellent thread Bernd

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6868926)

You will get a much greater performance improvement from an ECU tune than an aftermarket exhaust. Combine the two and that is as much as you can really do with an E550 besides perhaps a BMC air filter set. You will have no problems with the turbos or spark plugs if you stick with the more well known tuners i.e. Speedriven, Renntech, AMS, Weistech.

Originally Posted by Speedriven1 (Post 6868897)

If you're looking at a CF airbox, the Carbonio is a solid option. Or the ROW airbox. Just my $0.02.

Originally Posted by efiftyfizzle (Post 6869019)

Look at the GT-R for example... just improving the way the car breathes and adding fuel (intakes, downpipe, midpipe, fuel injectors, pumps) adds like 100whp. You think Nissan couldn't figure that out? They left it out on the table on purpose because they didn't want to risk blowing the transmission and more importantly, they want to be able to make small revisions in the future to enhance the performance of the car.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6868779)

Unless you and your friend's cars are mechanically and aftermarket identical except for the turbo back pipe, then any comparison is not really valid. Furthermore, "feel" and butt dyno is purely subjective, not objective. The placebo effect is very common in the world of aftermarket modifications. If you want to make a convincing case, you should have dynoed before the turbo back and then after with no other modifications. Also, as I have stated, whatever minor gains that may occur in peak HP with a turbo back pipe may come at the expense of low and midrange HP and torque, which is where these engines live most of their lives for those of us who use them as daily drivers. The expense on a 2014-2016 AWD is simply not justified with stock turbos.

Originally Posted by Speedriven1 (Post 6869023)

Doing the changes, as described, would cause the car to miss CARB and TUV emissions targets. Not disagreeing with your main point, though- just saying that I agree, and "performance" isn't the only target the OEMs have.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6869152)

Therefore, some of what the OEM's "leave on the table" is generally related to the above constraints. They also exist solely to generate profits, period. Thus you have the HP and torque difference between, for example, the E63 and the E63 S, which is nothing but a software tweak for which the customer has the privilege of paying an extra $7000.

Originally Posted by BerndV (Post 6867936)

Re-read what I posted. Workarounds exist, true reprogramming of the TCU's embedded software does not.