M177 Tune Comparison
 

So now that I'm about 1000 miles, I'm considering adding tune to the old wagon, and I just wanted to run the data by you guys to make sure I understand it correctly.

Weistec (625hp/680tq) $2960:

https://i63.tinypic.com/nlbcl3.png

Eurocharged (640hp/750tq) $2,495:

https://www.eurocharged.com/componen...-1000x1000.jpg

Renntech (773hp/778tq) $3,495:

https://www.renntechmercedes.com/ima...S_ECU+_web.jpg

A few questions.

1. I see discrepancies in each company's results when they measured stock hp/tq ... what is the cause of that?

2. There's also a significant variation in what each company was able to get out of this engine just through programming ... what would be the reason for that? For example is the Renntech tune pushing the envelope a lot more and is more likely to cause problems as a result?

3. Price aside, when all is said and done, and accounting for dyno variations, which tune is going to be the highest performing one? Is it as simple as looking at the final numbers and deciding accordingly? Or should I look at the delta between their pre and post tune measurements and compare those to each other to get a true determination of performance increase?

Thanks

Serge whats up brother- my thoughts:

1. Different days, operators, dynos, conditions etc all yield different opening numbers. I would, as you know, focus on the gains over the stock tests for each car in the usable rpm curves.

2. I cant speak to why they "pushed" to get more out of the tune but again its all about conditions, dyno, operator, correction factors and the biggest IMHO- marketing. The best paper dyno tends to get the most questions and possibly more sales. Outside of testing all three tunes side by side in your car its just not possible to figure it out to an exact science.

3. Dyno's are just one factor so yes the gains in the curves are very important but remember again its not apples to apples as none of these tunes were done at the same time in the same place with the same operator/dyno. I really like to use the street to see whats the best tune (if thats what you must have in regards to gains). I personally just usually choose a safer good gain tune that isnt maxing out the car. Check out the AMR post here, they just did a tune only car with 93 octane that pulled a 132 trap 10.5XX .... to me thats legit proof of winning tune.

Yes indeed, track conditions play a role too of course. But at least its the real world results on the ground which I find more meaningful. I guess I could spell it like this, I have seen cars on a dynos that are "deficient" to others that still beat those same cars in a side by side track run.

// EDIT: the AMR Performance tune has a timeslip showing a 10.5 1/4 mile on ECU-tune only and 93 octane pump gas. Assuming they're being entirely truthful (and I've no reason to think they're not), this is very impressive.

:eek:

Whoa, hold up there--the Renntech numbers you're quoting are crank numbers and they're being compared against wheel numbers--you need an apples to apples if that's the basis, or part of it, before deciding.

• Renntech claim their tune makes 665 hp to the wheels and 670 ft Ibs of torque
• Eurocharged claim their tune makes 640 hp to the wheels and 750 ft Ibs of torque (Dynojet)
  • my personal experience is 621 hp to the wheels and 735 ft Ibs of torque (Mustang)
  • the reason I called out that my numbers are from a Mustang dyno is because Mustangs are known to consistently read low relative to dynojets (my own personal experience bears this out, too)
  • regardless, my numbers are no longer theoretical since they're taken from my actual car: they're close to Eurocharged's estimates (potentially higher, in fact, given the dyno type) and proven with a 10.9 1/4 mile on 92 octane pump gas, a terrible 60ft and overall launch and an undulating surface that triggered traction control lights at 3-digit speeds

As far as I can tell, Eurocharged remain the highest in terms of claimed numbers--numbers that I can practically vouch for (they're the reason why along with community accolades that I chose Eurocharged). However, I've no experience with the other tunes so a comparison isn't possible. I can't recommend one over the other since I have no firsthand experience with the other tunes but I have fair amount of experience tuning my M-cars and RS7 and Eurocharged's tune holds up nicely. Eurocharged's tune won't disappoint.

I chat with the tuner (Jerry) frequently over email and, in fact, my ECU is going back to him later this week for an update (they provides I think 3 free updates). I'll be taking her back to the same Mustang dyno once that's done.

My best 60mph (per Dragy) is 2.85s and involved significant wheel hop & spin--there's a 2.7 or lower in this car. My 1/4mile (per Dragy) is 10.9 and the conditions were far from optimal: the 60ft was 1.75 and I hit 60mph in 3.05 on that particular run; I covered the 1/8th in just over 7s and still managed a sub-11 run. The issue I have right now isn't power, it's traction. And again, these are $h!tty 92 octane based numbers. Hypothetically speaking and all else being equal, I've had run a 10.7 1/4 mile if I'd matched my best 0-60mph.

PS: I consider the Dragy a credible device as does just about everyone I know who has one (and that's a lot of folks).

I hear you friend. I am new to Mercedes as this is the first one I have owned and it has been quite the mission seeing what is offered. After the research I have done and results I have gathered, I have chosen to upgrade with AMR Performance (link below for reference):

http://shop.amrperformance.com/produ...e-ship-in-ecu/

That 10.5 pass is incredible and after speaking with the guys over there, I am very confident that I am in good hands. They were a pleasure to deal with over the phone and answered all of my questions.

I can't wait to get mine done and keep us posted with whatever you choose to do! Good luck!

All the above dynos are showing 70-75rwhp peak increase
The only exception is Weistec cos they used a spot on the map that is NOT the peak to claim 80rwhp, they are actually also pushing 70-75rwhp peak

AMR is claiming 100plus RWHP.....we will see on that one

Not the response I was going for but glad it made you laugh...

Anyhoo, my skepticism has done little else other than grow. The time seems achievable, the dyno numbers do not (... and I still don't know what dyno they were taken on).

I'd love to see these numbers (all of them) pan out and I *think* we've got a few takers on the tune so hopefully we'll know soon.

Ill see you on dragy soon :) It comes in tomorrow, I will try to get some runs in on my DSWs then Saturday I get my Renntech tune and summers installed. Sunday off to Cecil County dragstrip for the Youtube Callout. So i should have quite a bit of data by Monday.

Any advice on getting a good start or just let launch control handle it?

Oh and anyone in the NJ area happen to have the lowering module and want to help me lower mine (ill compensate) mine will not be in on time.

My apologies for being unhelpful. What I can offer is some very clear cut advice as that is the extent of all I can say. When you tune a car, particularly something as special as this car, a bit of proper background search (just not google review score, we all know that can be manipulated) about the tuner goes a long way. For this kind of cars, with the ECU they use, it is just not ramping up the boost, advancing the timing and adjusting the fuel trim. There are plethora of built in safety parameters, all there for a reason. And when you do not have the knowledge or expertise to handle it, things do not turn out really well. Just my 0.02.

I'm lost as to why you're replying to me in the first place.

I never said your response was unhelpful, merely that I wasn't trying to be funny.

Now, whose/what comment are you responding to?

I referred to your initial statement of you not doubting that results can be manipulated.

Excellent! Can't wait to see what you get...

Surprisingly enough, I do in fact. I determined through consistent back-to-back tests that I can choose the shift-point more optimally than the launch control system does. I cannot, however, launch the car anywhere near as fast with a simple punch the pedal maneuver... so what's the middle ground you may ask? Good question :D: I turn off traction control (it does interfere); suspension on soft allows the car to absorb the rear squat a little better (but I'm already way lowered so it's relative to that); slam the brake; slam the gas (normal so far); launch engages... once it does, pull the left (downshift) paddle--this disengages launch control once you're moving but be ready to change up at about 6K... repeat this all the way up the gears. This is the method I've used to repeatedly improve earlier times.

That was courtesy--I have no intention of calling them out-and-out liars so my language choice was delicate. You've read far too much into it...

Thanks for the advice. Just got home, Dragy was waiting but its wet out, so tomorrow I will try and baseline, albeit on my All Seasons

BTW do you have Track Pace in your car? If so how did it measure up against dragy?

I do have it. I've never used it beyond my day-1 exploration of the head unit's capabilities. I guess I should. I don't have the car right now since its ECU is on a plane to TX--should be back with me on Friday.

Hi guys,

are tgere in the U.S. already sport air filters available for the E 63?
​​​​​​
Greetings
NMS PERFORMANCE

My understanding is yes. Shop doing my tune said he has Renntech (Dry) Filters.... could be a mistake (as they do not list them yet), wrong model etc, but I will find out for sure tomorrow

BMC had some issues with the molding of the new oddly shaped filters, they should have been delivered but I have not heard if they did. Renntech has been listing them for some time but have not received them yet. They might have them now. will check today and update when I hear back.

Confirmed from tuner via Renntech today. They had a few prototypes but have already allocated them. He is saying it will be about 3 more weeks until they are readily available.

Tomorrow is D day. Looks like Parker will be tyere, just not sure if he brought the AMG. Would be fun to put the two tunes against one another

I need to work on my launch. Here is best run of the day I'm left lane

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...214eede616.jpg