MBH Official Monster Heat Exchanger release***Dyno!
08-13-2010, 02:16 PM
#26
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08-13-2010, 06:10 PM
#28
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'13 GT-R AMS Alpha 9+, CLA45, E55
08-14-2010, 09:32 AM
#29
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2003 porsche 996 turbo
velocioabstract i agree it allows for less timing to be pulled but again this isnt inc. hp merely keeping the power you have longer.
if you have a s/c engine and add nitrous you are adding power. if the headers installed add 2 hp from non header dyno pulls thats added power. same for a tune vs. oem tune
am i missing something here?
keep in mind hooley im not knocking your h/e. just trying to learn something
08-14-2010, 11:16 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
this point is well known ..
if we talk real world performance, it's not important your "potential" power maybe early in the morning, but your "actual" power that you can develop at ANY point in time ..
so, as real world is nothing "absolute" but all "relative", if there's something that allows you to develop your entire potential 500HP even after some fatigue, while me not have that thing .. the winner it's you because on that specific occasion you could actually develop more power than me
if we talk real world performance, it's not important your "potential" power maybe early in the morning, but your "actual" power that you can develop at ANY point in time ..
so, as real world is nothing "absolute" but all "relative", if there's something that allows you to develop your entire potential 500HP even after some fatigue, while me not have that thing .. the winner it's you because on that specific occasion you could actually develop more power than me
Last edited by dyno; 08-14-2010 at 11:21 AM.
08-14-2010, 02:03 PM
#31
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2003 porsche 996 turbo
this point is well known ..
if we talk real world performance, it's not important your "potential" power maybe early in the morning, but your "actual" power that you can develop at ANY point in time ..
so, as real world is nothing "absolute" but all "relative", if there's something that allows you to develop your entire potential 500HP even after some fatigue, while me not have that thing .. the winner it's you because on that specific occasion you could actually develop more power than me
if we talk real world performance, it's not important your "potential" power maybe early in the morning, but your "actual" power that you can develop at ANY point in time ..
so, as real world is nothing "absolute" but all "relative", if there's something that allows you to develop your entire potential 500HP even after some fatigue, while me not have that thing .. the winner it's you because on that specific occasion you could actually develop more power than me
again just wanted clarification
08-14-2010, 02:45 PM
#32
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You can argue that it doesn't add hp but if you tune for the cooler IAT temperatures you can find a lot of power. I upgraded my H/E because I installed a pulley to increase the boost which as you know increased the heat too. For me the H/C was an inexpensive, almost idiot proof step in the search for more hp. The guys at the local PCA driving school think I have over 400 hp to the wheels. I think it's just that what I have on the dyno is what I have on the track and some cars with 100 hp more on the dyno come down to my level at the track. Keeping the IAT's cool is the first step in safely looking to increase the power. Well, in my humble opinion anyway.
Les
Les
08-14-2010, 03:58 PM
#33
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2003 porsche 996 turbo
You can argue that it doesn't add hp but if you tune for the cooler IAT temperatures you can find a lot of power. I upgraded my H/E because I installed a pulley to increase the boost which as you know increased the heat too. For me the H/C was an inexpensive, almost idiot proof step in the search for more hp. The guys at the local PCA driving school think I have over 400 hp to the wheels. I think it's just that what I have on the dyno is what I have on the track and some cars with 100 hp more on the dyno come down to my level at the track. Keeping the IAT's cool is the first step in safely looking to increase the power. Well, in my humble opinion anyway.
Les
Les
08-14-2010, 04:07 PM
#34
Super Member
You wonder how it could add horse power.
The performance gain from a more efficient Intercooler is due to the lower temperature charge of air in the cylinder. Lower tempature = more dense air = more air in charge.
PV=nRT. Where P is pres, V is vol, n is the number of moles of molecules, R is a constant. and T is temperature (in Kelvin).
The state of an amount of gas "like in gases not fuel" is determined by its pressure, volume, and temperature. The modern form of the equation is:
Where p is the absolute pressure of the gas; V is the volume; n is the amount of substance; R is the gas constant; and T is the absolute temperature.
At any one moment in time, P and V are both constants. "In fact, V is always a constant for our engines because the volume of the cylinder is fixed. P would be a constant because the Super/Charger would be maintaining a particular pressure at a particular moment in time." So, it should be easy to see that for any particular moment in time, n varies inversely to T. As temperature decreases, the number of molecules of the air/fuel mixture is increased.
I hope this is explained correctly.
The performance gain from a more efficient Intercooler is due to the lower temperature charge of air in the cylinder. Lower tempature = more dense air = more air in charge.
PV=nRT. Where P is pres, V is vol, n is the number of moles of molecules, R is a constant. and T is temperature (in Kelvin).
The state of an amount of gas "like in gases not fuel" is determined by its pressure, volume, and temperature. The modern form of the equation is:
Where p is the absolute pressure of the gas; V is the volume; n is the amount of substance; R is the gas constant; and T is the absolute temperature.At any one moment in time, P and V are both constants. "In fact, V is always a constant for our engines because the volume of the cylinder is fixed. P would be a constant because the Super/Charger would be maintaining a particular pressure at a particular moment in time." So, it should be easy to see that for any particular moment in time, n varies inversely to T. As temperature decreases, the number of molecules of the air/fuel mixture is increased.
I hope this is explained correctly.
Last edited by Roverron; 08-14-2010 at 04:28 PM.
08-14-2010, 04:54 PM
#35
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thanks Roverron ... that makes sense for colder temp making more air, hence more oxygen; hence ability to burn more fuel and, finally, Power 
still hoping Hooleyboy will find time to answer my questions and enlighten with further real world evidence ..
still hoping Hooleyboy will find time to answer my questions and enlighten with further real world evidence ..
so, are you experiencing less over-heating with your SL55 compared to your bro's CLS55 ?
any other difference ... for example the fan working quicjer and longer ?
and, didn't you try to add in your SL an HE like the one we have at bottom ..
sorry for so many questions, but you having both SL and CLS turns out being an interesting source of info for understanding the difference in design followed by MB : that S-class had both could lead my reasoning to think that MB wanted to save a few $$ with E/CLS, but the fact that SL, which is not cheaper than S, has one only HE is a mistery ..
any other difference ... for example the fan working quicjer and longer ?
and, didn't you try to add in your SL an HE like the one we have at bottom ..
sorry for so many questions, but you having both SL and CLS turns out being an interesting source of info for understanding the difference in design followed by MB : that S-class had both could lead my reasoning to think that MB wanted to save a few $$ with E/CLS, but the fact that SL, which is not cheaper than S, has one only HE is a mistery ..
08-14-2010, 07:45 PM
#36
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so, are you experiencing less over-heating with your SL55 compared to your bro's CLS55 ?
any other difference ... for example the fan working quicjer and longer ?
and, didn't you try to add in your SL an HE like the one we have at bottom ..
sorry for so many questions, but you having both SL and CLS turns out being an interesting source of info for understanding the difference in design followed by MB : tha S-class had both could lead my reasoning to think that MB wanted to sove a few $$ with E/CLS, but the fact that SL, which is not cheaper than S, has one only HE is a mistery ..
any other difference ... for example the fan working quicjer and longer ?
and, didn't you try to add in your SL an HE like the one we have at bottom ..
sorry for so many questions, but you having both SL and CLS turns out being an interesting source of info for understanding the difference in design followed by MB : tha S-class had both could lead my reasoning to think that MB wanted to sove a few $$ with E/CLS, but the fact that SL, which is not cheaper than S, has one only HE is a mistery ..
I haven't pitted my SL55 vs my bro's CLS55 yet. I had my SL on the dyno yesterday. My fan kept coming on. Thats is something I didn't notice with my brothers CLS.
I can do some comparison testing on both cars Thats not a problem.
In the E55 sub-forum, I have a post out summer blend gas here in Arizona. To make a long story short I lost 30whp just from bad gas. Then I spiked my SL's gas with some 109oct race fuel. That seemed to solve the problem of bad fuel, but in the end I was still lower (horsepower wise) than my brothers CLS. When the only mod separating us is a Heat Exchanger.
As for my SL, I haven't tried to do any cooling mods yet. I will be doing that, but the SL is a bit more tricky to find a good location.
Also I would like to add an edit, to the Main description about this Heat exchanger. My brothers car has an aftermarket radar detector that is connected to the front bumber.. Originally I had thought the front bumper bolts that hold the H/E to the bumper were installed to hold only the radar detector.
Turns out I was a wrong and thats a good thing. I had a CLS55 in yesterday for some tires. I stuck my head under the bumper and seen those bolts. So installing this H/E uses all factory bolts and locations. No drilling or tapping is needed to install this heat exchanger. Its a 100% bolt on setup
08-14-2010, 11:03 PM
#37
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2003 porsche 996 turbo
You wonder how it could add horse power.
The performance gain from a more efficient Intercooler is due to the lower temperature charge of air in the cylinder. Lower tempature = more dense air = more air in charge.
PV=nRT. Where P is pres, V is vol, n is the number of moles of molecules, R is a constant. and T is temperature (in Kelvin).
The state of an amount of gas "like in gases not fuel" is determined by its pressure, volume, and temperature. The modern form of the equation is:
Where p is the absolute pressure of the gas; V is the volume; n is the amount of substance; R is the gas constant; and T is the absolute temperature.
At any one moment in time, P and V are both constants. "In fact, V is always a constant for our engines because the volume of the cylinder is fixed. P would be a constant because the Super/Charger would be maintaining a particular pressure at a particular moment in time." So, it should be easy to see that for any particular moment in time, n varies inversely to T. As temperature decreases, the number of molecules of the air/fuel mixture is increased.
I hope this is explained correctly.
The performance gain from a more efficient Intercooler is due to the lower temperature charge of air in the cylinder. Lower tempature = more dense air = more air in charge.
PV=nRT. Where P is pres, V is vol, n is the number of moles of molecules, R is a constant. and T is temperature (in Kelvin).
The state of an amount of gas "like in gases not fuel" is determined by its pressure, volume, and temperature. The modern form of the equation is:
Where p is the absolute pressure of the gas; V is the volume; n is the amount of substance; R is the gas constant; and T is the absolute temperature.At any one moment in time, P and V are both constants. "In fact, V is always a constant for our engines because the volume of the cylinder is fixed. P would be a constant because the Super/Charger would be maintaining a particular pressure at a particular moment in time." So, it should be easy to see that for any particular moment in time, n varies inversely to T. As temperature decreases, the number of molecules of the air/fuel mixture is increased.
I hope this is explained correctly.
08-15-2010, 08:14 AM
#38
Super Member
The question that i would like answered is how are people resolving the static pressure problem in the air to water exchange. The below information has been taken from Wiki to help explain my question. I will be trying to address this problem directly with a easy fix.
Every point in a steadily flowing fluid, regardless of the fluid speed at that point, has its own static pressure P, dynamic pressure q, and total pressure P0. Static pressure and dynamic pressure are likely to vary significantly throughout the fluid but total pressure is constant along each streamline. In rotational flow, total pressure is the same on all streamlines and is therefore constant throughout the flow.
OK now you ask how does this relate to our cars right. Well the pumps we are using to circulate the water are pumps design for flow not pressure what happens when the forward pressure is greater than what the pumps can produce? Answer no flow as the water heats up it expands and gains pressure the "T" they have in the system is not to mix the fluids or to help cool; it is to use the expansion tank of the radiator system to release pressure to maintain flow. The systems are not balanced. Ask anyone who has a rear system what happens when they fill their system to the max with water and do a few runs. Most will leave a few inches of air at the top to keep it from over flowing. The air in there will still cause pressure it just doesnt spill out. When you cool the water down or add ice you are compressing the water because its cold then you heat it up and it expands greatly.
Every point in a steadily flowing fluid, regardless of the fluid speed at that point, has its own static pressure P, dynamic pressure q, and total pressure P0. Static pressure and dynamic pressure are likely to vary significantly throughout the fluid but total pressure is constant along each streamline. In rotational flow, total pressure is the same on all streamlines and is therefore constant throughout the flow.
OK now you ask how does this relate to our cars right. Well the pumps we are using to circulate the water are pumps design for flow not pressure what happens when the forward pressure is greater than what the pumps can produce? Answer no flow as the water heats up it expands and gains pressure the "T" they have in the system is not to mix the fluids or to help cool; it is to use the expansion tank of the radiator system to release pressure to maintain flow. The systems are not balanced. Ask anyone who has a rear system what happens when they fill their system to the max with water and do a few runs. Most will leave a few inches of air at the top to keep it from over flowing. The air in there will still cause pressure it just doesnt spill out. When you cool the water down or add ice you are compressing the water because its cold then you heat it up and it expands greatly.
Last edited by Roverron; 08-15-2010 at 08:19 AM.
08-15-2010, 10:20 AM
#39
MBWorld Fanatic!
Based on the pressure equation, a system that is split could easily develop a pressure that can not be overcome by the pump. In this instance, the flow would simply stop until the pressure dropped, which would not occur as the tempurate continues to rise without circulation, correct?
Solution, same volume pump with higher pressure capabilities. Kind of like: Same Horsepower - More Torque?
Makes sence to me, but I have been bummin' change at the corner, so I am in no position to validate.
Solution, same volume pump with higher pressure capabilities. Kind of like: Same Horsepower - More Torque?
Makes sence to me, but I have been bummin' change at the corner, so I am in no position to validate.
08-15-2010, 01:03 PM
#40
MBWorld Fanatic!
I haven't pitted my SL55 vs my bro's CLS55 yet. I had my SL on the dyno yesterday. My fan kept coming on. Thats is something I didn't notice with my brothers CLS.
I can do some comparison testing on both cars Thats not a problem.
In the E55 sub-forum, I have a post out summer blend gas here in Arizona. To make a long story short I lost 30whp just from bad gas. Then I spiked my SL's gas with some 109oct race fuel. That seemed to solve the problem of bad fuel, but in the end I was still lower (horsepower wise) than my brothers CLS. When the only mod separating us is a Heat Exchanger.
....
I can do some comparison testing on both cars Thats not a problem.
In the E55 sub-forum, I have a post out summer blend gas here in Arizona. To make a long story short I lost 30whp just from bad gas. Then I spiked my SL's gas with some 109oct race fuel. That seemed to solve the problem of bad fuel, but in the end I was still lower (horsepower wise) than my brothers CLS. When the only mod separating us is a Heat Exchanger.
....
thanks for this further info.
indeed my question was not to compare the efficiency of your newly released HE with the other in SL, but just to understand the reason of the different choice taken by AMG when they decided to put into E/CLS a different HE than in SL.
I know that at this point your brother's CLS has the new HE but maybe you remember how cooling (and power consistency ) performed before in CLS compared to your SL ..
08-29-2010, 11:15 PM
#42
Because this cars supercharging cooling system is not independent or "split" form the main engine cooling. This Heat exchanger actually was helping to cool the engine.
Coolant temps never reached over 200 degrees F (about 90 degrees C).Thats with run after run and we were hot lapping this CLS on the dyno. In the video the temp above the "Charge temp" was engine coolant temp and that reached 196F or 90C. If I recall, I dont have STAR DAS in front of me
Coolant temps never reached over 200 degrees F (about 90 degrees C).Thats with run after run and we were hot lapping this CLS on the dyno. In the video the temp above the "Charge temp" was engine coolant temp and that reached 196F or 90C. If I recall, I dont have STAR DAS in front of me
maybe you should add the same pump that evosport use in there kit
Will the e55 cooling parts be just a h/e or a full kit like H/E,pump,split cooling and so on
Last edited by Ohbev; 08-29-2010 at 11:26 PM.
08-29-2010, 11:37 PM
#43
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
I can get some, but its hard to see.
I dont like to make speculations on power gains. If anything I've learned... Its best to wait for the results rather than try and predict the outcome. In this case we did not split the system and these results are based on a standard plumbing.
On the E55 I have not decided what I want to do yet. It would be nice to just fit this H/E into an E55, but there are things in the way that make it not possible.
I dont like to make speculations on power gains. If anything I've learned... Its best to wait for the results rather than try and predict the outcome. In this case we did not split the system and these results are based on a standard plumbing.
On the E55 I have not decided what I want to do yet. It would be nice to just fit this H/E into an E55, but there are things in the way that make it not possible.
08-30-2010, 01:10 AM
#44
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04' E55K
The question that i would like answered is how are people resolving the static pressure problem in the air to water exchange. The below information has been taken from Wiki to help explain my question. I will be trying to address this problem directly with a easy fix.
Every point in a steadily flowing fluid, regardless of the fluid speed at that point, has its own static pressure P, dynamic pressure q, and total pressure P0. Static pressure and dynamic pressure are likely to vary significantly throughout the fluid but total pressure is constant along each streamline. In rotational flow, total pressure is the same on all streamlines and is therefore constant throughout the flow.
OK now you ask how does this relate to our cars right. Well the pumps we are using to circulate the water are pumps design for flow not pressure what happens when the forward pressure is greater than what the pumps can produce? Answer no flow as the water heats up it expands and gains pressure the "T" they have in the system is not to mix the fluids or to help cool; it is to use the expansion tank of the radiator system to release pressure to maintain flow. The systems are not balanced. Ask anyone who has a rear system what happens when they fill their system to the max with water and do a few runs. Most will leave a few inches of air at the top to keep it from over flowing. The air in there will still cause pressure it just doesnt spill out. When you cool the water down or add ice you are compressing the water because its cold then you heat it up and it expands greatly.
Every point in a steadily flowing fluid, regardless of the fluid speed at that point, has its own static pressure P, dynamic pressure q, and total pressure P0. Static pressure and dynamic pressure are likely to vary significantly throughout the fluid but total pressure is constant along each streamline. In rotational flow, total pressure is the same on all streamlines and is therefore constant throughout the flow.
OK now you ask how does this relate to our cars right. Well the pumps we are using to circulate the water are pumps design for flow not pressure what happens when the forward pressure is greater than what the pumps can produce? Answer no flow as the water heats up it expands and gains pressure the "T" they have in the system is not to mix the fluids or to help cool; it is to use the expansion tank of the radiator system to release pressure to maintain flow. The systems are not balanced. Ask anyone who has a rear system what happens when they fill their system to the max with water and do a few runs. Most will leave a few inches of air at the top to keep it from over flowing. The air in there will still cause pressure it just doesnt spill out. When you cool the water down or add ice you are compressing the water because its cold then you heat it up and it expands greatly.
08-30-2010, 06:56 AM
#45
I can get some, but its hard to see.
I dont like to make speculations on power gains. If anything I've learned... Its best to wait for the results rather than try and predict the outcome. In this case we did not split the system and these results are based on a standard plumbing.
On the E55 I have not decided what I want to do yet. It would be nice to just fit this H/E into an E55, but there are things in the way that make it not possible.
I dont like to make speculations on power gains. If anything I've learned... Its best to wait for the results rather than try and predict the outcome. In this case we did not split the system and these results are based on a standard plumbing.
On the E55 I have not decided what I want to do yet. It would be nice to just fit this H/E into an E55, but there are things in the way that make it not possible.
08-30-2010, 12:14 PM
#46
Super Member
@silverr1 I am sure that there is a difference of pressure before and after the H/E the restriction of flow plus the cooling of the H/E causes a loss of pressure on the feed side of the pump. The heat is generated on the pressure side and is restricted on the pressure side. I'm not sure if you are just hypothesizing in your statement or you are measuring. I have measured and seen the pressure and flow loss. If you have a split system and you do not vent it out there is no relief of pressure like a radiator cap. If the system created enough pressure and heat I'm sure it would blow a hose. The pressure is not there long enough because it does cool off and lose pressure and return to flowing.
