MB-JIM

K-A We know you don't like the W205 and have expressed your feelings over and over. Your insight has been very interesting, so why not move on???

c4004matic

<<<@!1!@>>>


Oh........ its a lack of soul thats the problem, not how fast it can do it!!!!! Quick lets get a preacher!!!! The C needs a SOUL injection Maybe we should have the ghost of James Brown assisting the Mercedes team

I get plenty of soul from my 2L normally aspirated Honda that has the same HP as a blown C300. However, it only fits 2, its noisy and cramped and it can't be driven in winter.........

Sportstick

Your insistence on continued comparison makes me fear the point was lost. Your opinion, my opinion, or those of many road test reviewers are not the point. The point is that these two companies have different brand and product missions, but both deviated from their brand vision in recent history, and each followed a trajectory which would have had them cross paths. The W204 strayed from the MB core brand values, approaching BMW, and had feedback as such, which affected the W205 program. BMW lost its way with F10 and F30 with softening and isolation more akin to MB. The interesting part for those of us who are/were automotive product planners and marketers (30 years) was that they converged some of their product attributes as each tried to gain share and volume from the other.

And, yes, comfort and performance are directionally antagonistic. If a full comfort vs. handling spectrum covers, for arbitrary example, Rolls Royce Ghost to Alfa 4C (one of the more uncomfortable recent entries), the inverse qualities are clear. The difference of two premium C/D segment entries is that they are just much closer together on the same spectrum. However, ride quality and handing, as they each improve, will inversely co-vary the other. The goal is finding the optimum balance for vehicles closer to the middle of the spectrum. Again, BMW and MB have picked different ideal targets, notwithstanding their recent wanderings off their targets.

I would not judge either brand overall based on W204, F10, nor F30 models. The new F22, which replaced my W204 as a similarly sized vehicle, however, is outstanding and true to the brand. Similarly, the excellently executed W205 also is much more true to MB brand goals. So, one last time, enough meaningless comparisons. I wish you many safe and happy miles in your W205. One day we may get a W205 to replace my wife's beloved current W211 in lieu of the next-gen larger E Class coming, which is what I am here to learn about and consider. Meanwhile, I am equally convinced I am having my RDA of driving fun, which I could not get out of even a significantly modified chassis W204, in the orange car described at the left.

StanNH

I think it's a given that the new W205's main purpose in life is not to be the penultimate sports sedan. If one's sole purpose in buying a sedan is to have the best handling and fastest car out there, the C300 or 400 will not be that car. If, on the other hand, a good handling and comfortable German marquee is what you're after, this car makes perfect sense. Distinctive styling, an upscale interior, comfortable seating, excellent fuel economy, and the Burmester sound system just add to the desirability of the W205.

Not everyone wants what the W205 has to offer, and that's to be expected. Regardless, most on this forum would agree that MB has done well in the C series redesign.

Valid criticism of the W205 is welcome, and there's always something owners would like to see improved. Continual harping on perceived deficiencies by non-owners can be seen as nothing more than rude or childish behavior. I would never consider going on to other forums just to criticize those users' choice of cars. That would be arrogant and do nothing but irritate the legitimate members of that forum.

c4004matic

Sportstick

I agree as well and have no criticism of the choice nor the product to offer (other than the nav screen - personally can't get past that one). Whether the product positionings of two distinct brands is intended to overlap and are properly directly comparable, or not, has been my point. As I said, we may purchase one to replace an E from the same outstanding MB dealer who has cared for both of our cars for the last 6 years before I sold my W204. The attributes which make the W205 not align with me, also make it align very well for my wife, so it rightfully holds a place of distinction in the market.

StanNH

That's funny, because my wife is the primary sedan driver in our family, so I really tried to tailor this car to her needs. I always go for performance, but seldom actually drive the sedan in our family. Except for winter driving, I'm always in a sports car.

I must admit though, this little C300 can be fun pushing through the twisties. It's also a very comfortable car to be in. Not the ultimate road racer perhaps, but a really well planted and nicely put together car with lots of electronic goodies to keep you entertained.

K-A

A "blown C300"? I'm gonna make a prediction: If I'm stereotyping based on your outlook, style of writing and forum-persoanlity type, on what makes a car exciting to you and what message that you (alone) are trying to push the W205 as, and being that you talk about C400 "blowing out of the water any BMW short of an M" yet have never driven a C400. My prediction is that after a year or two, you'll be looking for another car.

And that's not a slam toward the W205. It's just a certain type of car, and those here who have one and are happy about it don't seem in denial of that one bit, instead accept and in instances cherish it.

c4004matic

All 300's are blown or did you miss that one? The s2000 produces the same hp. 240 hp with the same displacement without the turbo. Thats 120 hp per liter, aside from Ferrari no one has made a production car with more specific output, now that is real sport, getting the picture? Maybe you can find me a bimmer that can boast that, plus over 1g cornering for less that 35k. When you do you can school me what a sport car is all about.

K-A

Dude, you're all over the place. I'm getting the vibe that the S2000 might be your first car or something.

Now you're boasting about the S2000 superior performance vs a BMW? First you said that a C400 could "run circles and out-sport any BMW short of an M" then said you've never driven the C400, now you're starting with the S2000? lol.

Like I said, the W205 is designed for an opposite purpose from what you seem to be seeking. It's the anti-sport, it's the luxury car of small premium sedans, given up on sporty intentions vs competitors who put that more front and center. Adequate and will please buyers, yes, but that's not what its intentions are, from the design to the interior to the drive, it's compact luxury and serenity front and center.

When I hear "blown" I think supercharged. Plus, C300's are (Turbo'd) from the factory, so I don't know where the S2000 argument of "more HP per liter than xxxx" came from. I remember the S2000 bragging rights from back in the day when I had a Mustang GT. I don't know why you keep bringing it up here.

hyperion667

KA: that Macan is a soccer Mom Porsche! get something for a man brother! I can't believe you'd buy this soul less car man! and not even the turbo?? come one man!!!

K-A

Soccer Mom's are hotter than S Class grandpas tho!

hyperion667

I KNEW you'd say that KA.........it's true perhaps, but a hell of a lot better than that little Ptruck


you're getting predictable brother

K-A

Ohh, come on brother. The Soccer Mom bit isn't really something new, I saw that coming a universe away, and a joke that I make about the car already myself.

Fortunately, the lil' truck drives more like a true blooded Porsche than the Panamera and certainly more than the soccer-mom-queen Cayenne does (i.e more than any 4 door does). Frankly I think that it's the best overall and most versatile car I've ever driven.... I'd wager out there, period, even. And doesn't put me to sleep like the S Class did.

I don't think people should get bent about those who say that the W205 isn't sporty, it's not supposed to be sporty, and getting bent about that discounts what the car is good at and why one should choose it. I mean, just drive it, it's no secret that the ride isn't trying to stir your emotions or senses. The interior is outstanding, and it's as serene and calming a ride as you'll ever find in that class. What's so bad about that? Seems to be exactly what M-B are intent on acknowledging they're best at, and going back to putting front and center. M-B used to advertise how the S Class LOWERS your heart rate, which is antithesis to what sports-car seekers look for. That's what M-B is about, and for the small-luxury car segment, that's what the C provides.

To be clear. Even though *I* personally didn't find the C Class enticing in subjective ways, i.e the drive didn't rivet me and the design is a turn off to me. However, objectively, it raises the bar in its class in all the things it does well. And I do think it's currently the *best* LUXURY car in class, by a landslide.

hyperion667

it's just I have not seen a man behind the wheel of one of those........ever.......and they're all over Chapel Hill too.......big seller right now


you're right about S: it's comfort and ease will put you to sleep.....the ambient lights, the massage.........it's a soporific car!

K-A

I don't subscribe to archaic social presumptions on what a "man" or "woman" should drive. Though I do think cars will LOOK or DRIVE intended for certain demographics ("girls car", "old people cars", etc.). And I think the car looks largely masculine anyway, IMO it's basically a 911 on stilts, from drive to looks.

If we're stereotyping, most E Classes are driven by middle to older age blue hair housewives, and C Classes by slightly younger of the exact same demographic. S Classes by older men, and M-B SUV's the pinnacle or middle to older age ex-Soccer Mom's (soccer grannies?).

I don't think there's a 4 door outside of AMG or M that actually DRIVES like it's intended for a thrill-seeking enthusiast (typically male) even close to it, which actually makes it fundamentally antithesis to a typically "soccer mom" car (marketing and segment demographic trends obviously differ) which is most important.

Re: Popularity, tell me about it, I'm waiting months, and many dealers are sold out for a year, many people putting money down just to get on a waiting list. And good luck getting a dime off of MSRP!

hyperion667

not archaic or presumptious, just what I see with my eyes everyother day

K-A

Well, in that case, then the C Class is a predominantly woman's car (while the C Coupe is actually designed to LOOK like a feminine car, big difference and goes to my "designed/engineering intentions vs inherent segment popularity to a certain demographic"), the E Class a geriatric woman's car, the 3 Series largely as well, the ML an ex-soccer mom car, the GL a soccer mom car, etc. etc.

SUV's, especially premium ones, in general are soccer mom cars anyway, I think every woman who's into prestigious cars that I know, worships Range Rovers more than anything. Mine is gonna be decked out to look very unlike the "soccer mom" variations anyway. I'll be sure to have man-grunt and fart-sound MP3's stored in the car to save some face when I'm feeling insecure.

ddeliber

Its statements like these that make me and probably many others call into question your intentions. Sure you sound like you give praise in some areas, an then you blurt out things like this and it makes me feel that you are pushing some kind of agenda.

Just because a car focuses on smoothness and ride quality does not make it "anti-sport" PERIOD. It is just plain ridiculous to claim that the C400 is not sporty. Of course it is, I just drove one last weekend and I found the drive to be outstanding for BOTH comfort and handling. In fact on my second pass around a few corners I had the white knuckled salesman holding on with both hands. The transition from left to right and back again at speed was outstanding. At first I though he was going to say something like don't do that again, but he came back with more of a wow, I didn't realize this car can do that. There is an initial initial roll as you enter the first turn but then it seemed to level out as you reach the apex. Transitioning to the opposite direction was seamless and much more level than I had expected. It is not an M or an AMG that much is obvious and not even close to the what the car was built for. However, it is for damn sure not bereft of sport and any claims to the contrary are misguided at best.

I found sport+ to be outstanding, with the exception of the transmission holding at about 3k rpm while not being pushed where this is absolutely unnecessary. 2k will do just fine given the nature of the power delivery. The C400 is a bit nose heavy just like a 335xi but not overly and it didn't seem to under-steer. Hardly non-sporty. Just because a car isn't harsh does not make it soft or lacking in sport qualities. I think Mercedes did a remarkable job of balancing out sport and comfort.

Having said this, and this is what I really want to say here, the bottom line for me still is unknown because I can't get a real feel for any car from one 20 minute test drive (even immediatly after a similar test of a C300). To be honest I don't believe anyone can (with the exception of maybe a professional driver that does this stuff every day). There are just too many unfamiliar things to absorb inside the cabin and how the car is applying power and responding to forces on the suspension. This makes it impossible focus on the drive in a way to be able to provide an accurate comparison with other similar cars (within reason of course). At the end of the day I still don't know how "sporty" or comfortable this car is in comparison with say an F30 335. I can also say with a high level of confidence that neither can you.

Sure it is obviously significantly less harsh than my e90 and PROBABLY a bit less agile, but I just don't have enough experience with it to say how much nor the arrogance to simply make it up based on my expectations going in.

MB-JIM

K-A couldn't give up the E Class forum after he switched to BMW. I was on that forum, for years, while owning W211's and W212's. I got completely disgusted with his hanging around with his only apparent goal to knock MB's. He comes up with his "objective" analysis, on the W205's, but he apparently has no interest in buying one. What is his goal???

K-A

I say that, because that's what it is. The car has largely been stated as going backwards in sportiness from previous M-B attempts. That's not to say that it's less sporty than the previous C (though I think it is in its spirit and immediate feel), it's that it tries to send a message that it doesn't want to be sporty (once you get past the goofy commercials and adverts). There's a clear consensus about the cars lack of sporty intentions.

Can it handle well? Sure, it's not an old Cadillac flopping all over the road. It's just not immersive and doesn't give a sense of dynamic driving. There are a select few who seem in denial about that. A C400 is a fast little car, I'm sure it'll feel fun, but it's not a sporty chassis, the transmission isn't a very sporty intended one (even in Sport +), it's certainly no DCT which is fine, but I think it's tuned less aggressively than my 5 Series' ZF8.

I call it the "anti Sporty" because I think that actually does justice to what M-B is trying to do with this car. After trying to inch closer to BMW for so long, they completely gave up and went in the other direction. I think it's a good thing. The interior is very "old world luxury" *for this segment*, and designers always say how their designs are the most introductory "language" that speaks about the cars intentions. The exterior is also not very sporty, sleek yes, but it's a copy/paste S Class with that old-fashioned style rear (IMO a little too mature for this segment, but again, I respect M-B's intentions of trying to bring back elements of maturity, as it's their forte), coupled with the "dropping line" that is intended to be a relaxing motion as opposed to a wedge motion, you can see that the design perfectly tells you what the drive will be like.

If you want a riveting drive, it's not gonna be from any C Class under an AMG. And this time, it's not because M-B failed at delivering it. It was almost shocking to me at how much they gave up in trying to deliver it, but made sense, and serves eh car well when you take in the whole ambiance.

Don't mix this up with the car not being able to feel stable, etc. Although I found the chassis and already sedated steering to get a bit sloppy when pushing it through turns a bit hard, overall the car tracks with ease, turns directly, and like any proper German car, feels stable at speed. It'll also go through turns and stay on course, up to a decent limit. Though, the E Class does too, but floats and wallows through said turn, not very confidence inspiring or fun at all, but it'll do it, up to a point.

The Sport+ is a fun way to mask the cars inherent virtues. Believe me, my 5 Series feels closer to what Mercedes virtues are than BMW's original virtues. BMW has been pushing the engineering-driven true-Sport modes on their slushboxes for a while, and it really does change the cars character. It made me feel that the car was "true BMW with the push of a button". While nice that Mercedes finally caught up to an actual Sport mode (not the marketing, do-nothing "Sport" mode in pre-W205 cars), and while it does make a difference, you'll soon realize that it's just kind of masking what is always going to shine through as what the car inherently is, and that's a soft, luxury sedan. And "soft" literally in that it doesn't even feel as ultra solid as the W204 to me, though I'm sure it technically is more solid.

I drove the W205 in Sport+ mode the whole time, and my impressions on how somewhat "lazy" it felt were in that mode. I couldn't even put it Comfort during the drive as it was too lifeless for a test drive (though again, for day to day commuting, will surely be super comfortable and compliant to pleasantly get you to where you need to go).

Funny thing is, I'm not bashing the car on this one. But if someone's gonna try and debate its sportiness, I couldn't agree less. I still think it's the best car in class in objective measures that don't have to do with dynamic or sporty driving or interior use of headroom. Subjectively, I'm not fond of the design outside, but I am of the interior. I think the interior is much nicer than the E Class.

c4004matic

Now the level of ignorance is revealed.... You were not even aware that a turbocharger is a blower. Let me guess 15 years old, pimples and can't talk to girls.........ROLF

K-A

No, I've just never heard of anyone refer to a Turbo'd car as "blown", but maybe that's just me. And the way you made it sound, when you oddly once again brought up the S2000 confusingly into the convo, is that M-B even cares about engaging in some HP/L war. The engine comes with a "blower" not as some power booster as much as meeting emissions while delivering adequate power for the segment. Again, you're looking at the wrong car with your verbiage on what excites you about a car. Consider me trying to steer you out of an obvious potential buyers remorse once you get a C and realize what it is, joining in on the classic chorus of those who should've never gotten a Benz, complaining about its "lack of sportiness" vs other makes. A Benz, seemingly now more than recent history, isn't about S2000 comparisons, HP per L, "running circles around 335i (as funny yet inaccurate as it is)" or laughably "being sportier than any BMW under an M". Believe it or not, but that stuff being so opposite from the cars truth and intentions, just devalues what the car is actually about.

Sportstick

I can't believe this is still going! What was intended as a quasi-academic discussion about product/brand positioning strategy has become far too personal and "one-upping". May whomever wishes to find whatever they like to be superior/sportier, etc. to anything else be happy in their observations...if any of that matters. Wish we could just have an interesting chat without all the

I'm going for a drive....

Glyn M Ruck

+1^ Right on the mark

+1^ ditto

And some of BMW's latest offerings are really nice to look at now that they have un-Bangled the Bungle.

Alas in our market they still don't make old bones well & get dropped quickly by owners once the Motorplan runs out.