sambar

Hi all, I am new to this forum and I currently own a 2012 328i coupe (E92). I have owned an E90 335i and an F30 328i before this, so I have pretty much been a BMW guy for some time. I've never owned a Mercedes.

This time round I want to get something different, I was looking at AWD cars mainly so I can take them to Tahoe/Reno in the winter without getting a rental, started my research with Golf R and 2017 S4 (which I'm not sure when it will show up). I ruled out BMWs this time because I want something different especially in the interior and also BMW's new suspension on XDrive models is too soft and squishy. I enjoy BMWs only in rear wheel drive.

So doing my research I came across this CPO C400, 2015 that has like 10K miles on it. It has multimedia package, sunroof, 19" wheels and 4Motion. It has Command but it doesn't have Airmatic or Headsup display. The interior is really attractive to me compared to everything else on the market. It is listed for about $40k no-haggle price and the sales guy says a lot of people are interested in the car (it just got listed), and he can't guarantee it will be available by the time I go in the evening. I am not much knowledgeable about C class cars but that seems like a good price, I am comparing with 335i. That would be an excellent price for a barely used 2015 335i. Also I am not seeing any other C400s on the market, so I tend to believe his hype about the high demand to some extent.

So wanted to get your thoughts on what do you guys think about buying it? What really attracts me to this car is:
- The styling
- The interior
- The 4Matic
- The 354 pound feet torque at 1600 rpm (sounds delicious)

What holds me back is a few things things:
- The fact that the C400 is discontinued and C450 will probably be discontinued soon too, and their replacements will come out with a new transmission.
- A LOT of people on Edmunds report transmission issues and give this car a low rating.
- It weighs 3700 pounds! And people on BMW forum say it handles like a boat (which could be biased - I haven't driven it yet).

I am going to check it out this evening, but before I go I wanted to get your thoughts on this, do you think it will have a low resale value for me because of the transmission? Thats the main thing on my mind. I plan to keep it for 2-3 years.

Secondly what do you think of the handling? I know it won't handle like a rear wheel drive car (and it shouldn't), but will it be really bad in comparison to say, Audis?

Other cars I considered are Golf R, B9 S4 (will show up by the end of this year) and Infiniti Q50 Red Sport AWD. Compared to those at this price point this C400 seems attractive but wanted to get an overall perspective before I go and buy this car.

Also since the C400 makes less power than the current C450 and the upcoming C43, will I regret the lack of power? I know its good for its price, but will I be thinking "I wish I paid the extra money and got the C450"? I did experience that when I got the 328i and wished I'd got the 335i, so I know what that feels like. I can't decide if I will feel this way with the car because the 320hp / 354torque sound good, but I want to make sure this is an aspect I don't regret later.

Thoughts?

Mike5215

The most direct comparison is between the 400 and the 300. The 450 did get a tuned version of the TTV6 but it also has a different suspension, brakes and exhaust.

The 400 makes a better relaxed cruiser than either the 300 or 450. The 300 is light and handles sharply but the T4 can be twitchy and it works harder than the 400, so the 400 has less drivetrain drama going on, even when pushed.

The 450 is a little beast with no pretense of being anything other than a serious performer. It's much more raucous than a 400. If performance is your thing, the 450 is your car.

For a comfortable DD that can get a little frisky when you want it to, the 400 would be my pick. In fact, had it been available in 2016 when I did my C300 build, the 400 would have been my first choice.

What I do love about the C300 is how light and athletic it is. Steering is great, and the T4 makes a lot of torque down low. In Sport mode the gearing keeps the engine in its sweet spot so it feels very responsive and perky.

As for the "no haggle" dealer who has imaginary buyers lined up for this thing, read my piece on this marketing ploy in my blog:

Www.carbuyingsite.wordpress.com

I'd verify that $40k price on www.kbb.com or www.nada.com and be prepared to negotiate. There's no such thing as no haggle, unless the dealer is also willing to let you set a no haggle value for your trade in. Good luck, and keep us posted.

z28lt1

I'm sure you know this, but it's all something you'll have to decide for yourself.

In terms of things you brought up:
1 - The C400 handling is geared towards luxury more than sport. I don't know if I would classify it as a "boat", but it isn't geared to be a back road canyon carver.

2 - I don't think resale will be hurt because of the transmission. Most people who are not car enthusiast on a forum like this, won't care about the difference between a 7 speed and 9 speed. I would be more considered about it being a C400 in general, where relatively few exist. Some of that though is already baked into your buying price, since you'll be getting a good discount from new, so less loss on a sale

3- No reason to miss the power of the C450 compared to the C400. The C450 has some more power, but it's real difference is handling (and braking). The power on the C400 is nice. As you noted, the Inifiniti Red sport will be faster in a straight line, but will come with extra costs since they've been on the lot of less than a month.


Most of these questions you'll find for yourself on the test drive. You'll have to decide if pure straight line speed (Infiniti) Handling (C450), fantastic interior (C400/C450), or value (C400) is most important to you.

sambar

Thanks guys! So.. Sounds like I won't be happy with it not for power reasons but more for handling reasons. That helps a lot!

I'll still check it out and see if I should try and extend my budget to fit a C450 instead.

This price is attractive though, I'd hate to pass it up. It's less than KBB price..

sambar

Hey guys sorry another quick question - does Mercedes offer OEM performance suspensions like BMW does?

For example BMW has an "M Performance suspension" upgrade that is different from mspost (stiffer and lower, really stiff and comparable to M3) as an aftermarket OEM upgrade, that can be purchased for around $2000. Does Mercedes do this too?

Mike5215

Relative to the Audi, the Benz is a an AWD system derived from a RWD chassis. The Audi is an AWD system derived from a FWD chassis. You can buy a RWD Benz. You cannot buy a RWD A4/A5. The Benz should be a better handler, apples-to-apples.

I was on the initial buyers pre-sale list for the Q50 and I was really excited about it, but there were so many glitches with the car's new infotainment and dynamic drive elements I finally gave up. Cost me a free Apple gift card. The cars were sitting on the lots for weeks with a big yellow sticker on the nav screen prohibiting the car from being sold while they tried to figure out why it didn't work. Even after delivery, owners were complaining of frequent lock ups and constant reboots. The whole thing turned me off Infiniti for good.

When you drive the 400, play with the Agility modes. There's a toggle to the left of the touch pad. The various modes actually make a big difference.

Mike5215

No. The 300 Sport and 400 come with either a fixed steel suspension that's 15mm lower relative to the non sport version, or an Airmatic suspension with Comfort/Sport/Sport+ modes (basically the car can drop itself to firm up the handling)

The 450 gets a version of the C63's electronically adjustable suspension with the same three modes, but all three are stiffer than their AirMatic counterparts. Sounds to me like you'd be happiest with a C450. There are deals to be had since MB orphaned it and replaced it with a car that gets a 9 speed tranny and a full blown AMG model designation.

Vipershade

I found this online a while back, it may help you put some of the pricing into perspective.

These guys are pretty spot on with their assessments, I total agree... Oh, and the C400 has a 45/55 torque split (compared to 33/67 C450, and 31/69 C43):

sambar

My sales advisor says the sports package is standard on the C400. Is that true? I am asking because @Mike5215 mentioned sport and non-sport suspension?..

z28lt1

Yes, standard on the C400. Optional on the C300.

Mike5215

Yes, the C400 only came with the Sport styling package...body kit, wheels, some interior trim bits, but being 4Matic it might sit a bit higher than a RWD car with a Sport suspension.

supersky3k

Too bad, that C400 doesn't have Airmatic, I think it's a must have for my C400. It will lower the car in sport mode and harden the damping automatically which improves handling. It can raise the car when you need more comforts.

sambar

So this C400 has only the multimedia package, the lighting package and 19" wheels. I guess the window sticker for it should have been around 54K.

So at 40K, thats 75% of its original price and being sold certified by a MBZ dealer. Considering its at 12K miles and slightly less than a year old (first sold September '15), is that a good deal?

supersky3k

The price is pretty good for the car listed. If you can wait, I think you should wait for the 2017 Audi S4 or the 2017 Mercedes C43. If you can afford the car in this price range, I think the price shouldn't be your first concern. It should be whether you like the way it drives be the main deciding factor.

inhartwetrust

He said he'd have to stretch on a C450, which can be had for 17% off MSRP currently if well negotiated, so a C43 might not be an option cost wise.

If it were me I'd renegotiate my *** off on a new C450 that's sitting on the lot; unless of course you can stretch the budget to get a C43 with a marginal discount, then I'd wait patiently for that.

sambar

From what I see, C450's are listed starting from 58K. if I negotiate and (lets say) I get one for 50k. Thats still 10K over what I would pay for this CPO C400. The question in my mind is, when I resell that C450 will get 10K more than if I were to sell this C400 after around the same amount of time. My guess is no, I'd probably sell it for say 2k-3k more max.

So the question is.. is the 7k-8k + 1k more tax = say 9k I pay more that over the time of ownership (assuming I bag a C450 for 50k) worth having the C450 over the C400? I guess only a test drive will answer that question. Correct me if my calculation is wrong..

Dkinsley

Go with the C400 and have the ECU tuned. A lot of companies doing it now. Most get it close to 400HP for approximate $2000 or less. I did the hard ECU tune as I have not had much success with Piggy-back systems in the past. (NA cars)

Mike5215

Yikes! Lots of math. I'd let the test drive choose the direction you go. $9k here or there isn't going to matter if you love the C450 but can tolerate the C400 because it's more practical. A car like this should be a somewhat emotional rather than purely rationale purchase.

On the bright side, you may prefer the more refined demeanor of the C400 anyway, and save some money in the process.

sambar

Just came back from the test drive, it was really eye-opening. Too many negatives, I need to either wait for the new C43 / S4 or go back to BMW. Sorry guys, hope you aren't offended.

lbowroom

What didn't you like about the C450 that the C43 will cure?

alexasa

iTrader: (1)

New S4 will probably have the worst in class handling/driving dynamics.

C43 only has the new transmission - so unless that was the defining point of disliking the c450, I don't think the 43 will remedy you disliking the car.

And this is coming from an Audi lover - my current ride, soon to not be current:

z28lt1

I think he drove the C400, so that is the comparison point for the C43.

And a used one at that, so who knows if it had any of the typical but fixable rattles/noises

Mike5215

Ha! You may have stumbled onto why the C400 was dropped after its first year. It sort of answered a question nobody was asking. Try a C450.

sambar

It was mostly the transmission. Here are my observations:

Positives:

• The car handles REALLY well. I gave it some aggressive corners, it just gripped like crazy in places where I am sure either of my 3 series (E92 or F30) would've spun out the rear wheels.
• The suspension has minimal body roll
• The steering though lifeless, is quick and precise. Intuitive to use. Better than I expected.
• The interior is visually appealing with premium material, feels like a good place to be in.
• The sound system is nice
• Its nice to have a place to put my sunglasses.

Negatives:

• My main gripe is with the transmission, its as bad as they say it is. Combine with the heavy weight, and the car feels really slow in real life driving. The car always feels like its in the wrong gear. I guess you can go fast if you use paddles and flog it, but for me it compares very unfavorably with the 335i / older (B8) S4. Those cars feel much faster.
• The interior isn't as good as I expected. It looks visually appealing, but that's it. The driver's seat is so cramped and the center console so high, it messes with my elbow in a normal position the moment I remove my right hand from the wheel. I am not a big guy, I weigh 140 pounds and wear size 31 jeans. There is just no elbow room, even with the seat at its highest position. On my (smaller?) E92, there is way more space.
• The driver's seat is way less comfortable than any BMW seat I have sat in. I don't know if this is a trim thing, but the seat actually doesn't have adjustable side bolstering.
• I spent a good 20-25 minutes trying to learn the Command interface, and no matter how much time you spend learning it, I felt like things just take way more clicks and pushes to do something than on iDrive and they require you to take your eyes off the road.

I could just get used to a lot of the negatives, and the grippy handling and suspension are more than worth it. But the transmission is the big downer for me, and I will wait for the C43 with the new transmission.

sambar

By the way, Audi USA on Facebook commented that they are planning to introduce the new S4 in winter of 2017. That's a long way off! That, plus waiting for prices to sane-out, and I am looking at a two year wait. So.. no S4 for now.

I am toying with the idea of getting an old (B8) S4 in the meantime, just for two years till they introduce the new one. By the time the C43 would be in the showrooms as well, with some of the new-model pricing leveled-out.

Or I could just hang on to my current car for a couple of years and wait for the C43!