ProjectC55

What is the name of the shop that does your ECU programming and do they have a website? This sounds pretty good. I have a tuner over here on the east coast but he sends my ecu out to a guy in NJ who programs the files.I was supposed to take my car over to NJ for custom tuning but it kind of fell to the wayside for now.

Josh K

I'm sending you a PM

ProjectC55

Got it! If you can get the programming done that's a good option.However i do like being able to fool around with the A/F ratios,fuel curve and timing myself.I think that street tuning in addition to dyno tuning is the ticket. Good luck Josh!

Hey Greg still waiting for a reply to my post!

E55Cent

Hey Josh can you send me infor on where you are going to get the ECU flashed. I want to do this ASAP after I get my new fuel pump or twin inline fuel pumps.
Mario

ProjectC55

Mario I thought you were getting the split sec timing and fuel control unit?

gregc

coolcarlskiC43 you are correct. In the idel world one wants a fuel pump that can flow at the needed volume as pressure increases. I am cheating with the boost a pump. I went this way becasue I can control the equestions, and did not want to buy a third pump.

On the other side, it would be ideal if I could just open up the injector pulse from the EEC to give more fuel, instead of having to 'push' more fuel through the injectors using higher fuel pressure by way of a FMU. That requires getting at the EEC code using a tuner.$$$$

coolcarlskiC43, any idea on these injectors for the CLK55's. I have polled many and found that different year model 5.4L engines have different injectors. Mine are the White injectors. A shop told me that White are 57lb/hr and the blue other cars are 44lb/hr.

57lb/hr are big injectors and that would not suprise me however. That allows the EEC to use a mush smaller pulse width at a little higher pressure(50psi in our case) to feed the engine. In the Ford world the stock fuel pressure is 40psi, Mercedes 5.4L its 50psi. Maybe the Mercedes desiin team could get better emmissions.

I would like to figure out if we at about at the limit.

So how to change injectors:
Option 1: get bigger injectors and matching MAF. This will work, even without changing EEC code. The issue is that the EEC using tables to look up Load info. It also uses for other parameters. If this was a FORD engine, fine. Much to costly of a engine to change things.
Option 2; get bigger injectors and matching MAF and have a tuner edit the EEC tables. $$$ and requires a tuner in Texas with the SW.

coolcarlskiC43: Its good to have others that play with these cars on the discussions.

E55Cent

Carl, this the spilt sec is still an option but I found a guy that can write custom programs on a dyno for my Benz. I'm not sure what the $$$ are but I will so find out. I really don't care what I get, just as long as the car is safe.

ProjectC55

Mmmm,that's different.My 5.5L motor came out of a 2kE55 and the inj are green.Same thing on Steve's 2k1 CLK55 motor,green.The C43 motor had the exact same color injectors,green. Steve had to use his c43 inj in his app because the motor was from a car that caught on fire and burnt up the harness and some of the inj. I did notice hat the 5.0 and I believe the 4.3L M113 motors hat jeff had in his yard had pink injectors.I know that these injectors on a BMW M3 would be 21.5lbs.They are wrng aout the blue inj,the blue ones made by Bosch and Ford coincidenty are 24lbers not 44lbers. I have those(blue inj) in my BMW M332i. I will do more research this afternoon Greg.There's no reason to go that high (44-57lb) on your car with F/I but let me chk.I'd say maybe the most 36lbs edging near 40 lbs.You need to know how much HP you want to make.Active Auto uses 36lbers on there rotrex supercharged E36 M3's and I think these injectors are red.Their kit allows the car to put out 282.6whp(355hp).Once you know what your hp target is you'll have an idea which inj you want to use.I'll post a link Stay tuned.

PS,I would think you would be safe with 450 or 550cc inj but I have to find out the poundage and color to verify.I know that the Supra TT 3.OL uses 550cc injectors stck.These inj are usually good for up to 450hp if not more.

ProjectC55

here's a link with a pretty gd formula for figuring out what size injectors you need based on your hp target.:http://users.starpower.net/mtech/fue...alties_003.htm


Mario I'm not 100 % sure which way I wanna go but I am leading towards the Split second stuff. Custom ECU tuning can run into alot of dough.The advantage I see to custom tuning it is that you perhaps would not have to adjust the fuel based on weather changes.I'm hoping that's not the case with the split second setup. I know that the weather affects APEXi AFC equipped cars where you have to either add fuel some days and trim it some the next.

ProjectC55

After doing some reasearch I'd go with the 42-44lbers Greg!

E55Cent

Greg, how's the car running? Any dyno testing yet? I wanted to say thank you for talking to me the other day and giving me some real world advise. I spoke with the owner of Vortec later that day and he own's a 211 E55. He asked to look under my hood and told me to get twin inline fuel pumps. This was kind of a new thought but not sure if I want to do that. I was wondering where the best place to buy the Bosh fuel pumps, do you have a website?
Thanks again
Mario

gregc

I should have the 2.25in pulley in Friday. that should give me about 8psi up top. I see 4-5psi at 3500 and 7psi at 5000 today. the powerdyne unit is not the best but I am impressed with how it builds psi and stays some what flat. Its not a roots, but its not as straight line as a vortech.

I should have some data to share this weekend.

ProjectC55

gregc

I found this site;
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsFORD.asp

Pink 22lb/hr
Red 30
blue 24
white 36
orange 19

ProjectC55

I'd go 42 -44 lbs and if it runs too rich,trim some fuel out Greg.Make sure you get a fuel pump as well.i think then You'll be all set.

mtimmy

42-44 sounds promising too...

running too rich shouldn't be a big problem we can trim it out easily with the splite sec unit... running too lean is toughest part for now...

ProjectC55

Now here's an easy way to figure out which injectors you need based on hp:

Fuel Injector Spotters Guide and Information


So, how much power is this injector good for? That depends on the air/fuel ratio that is used, but a good rule of thumb is to divide this flow figure by 5 to get a hp capability. So, 322cc divided by 5 = 64hp maximum fuel flow with this injector. If you want to be pedantic, it's the mass of the fuel (not the volume) which is the critical factor. Assuming a "normal" fuel density, the mass of the fuel in pounds per hour can be worked out by Dividing the cc per minute figure by 10.2. For this injector, that gives a mass flow of 32 pounds/hour. To convert from pounds/hour to horsepower capability, multiply the figure by 2.04. So 32 pounds/hour multiplied by 2.04 gives a horsepower capability of 64hp - the same as we got from the cc/minute figure.
The power ratings discussed above are for each injector. This means that you need to multiply this rating by the number of injectors that are to be used. So, if you were using the Impulse RS 322cc injectors in a 4 cylinder engine (with one injector per cylinder) the max power that the injectors could deliver fuel for would be about 257hp. All of these figures are assuming that you are running an average fuel pressure of ~43psi and at 90% duty cycle.

Conversions
500cc per minute is approximately equal to 49lbs per hour which is equal to approximately 100hp.
lbs/hour = cc per minute / 10.2
lbs per hour = HP / 2.04
cc per minute = lbs per hour x 10.2
cc per minute = HP x 5
HP = cc per minute / 5
HP = lbs per hour x 2.04

ProjectC55

You may be able to get away with 36lbers like I mentioned b4! 36lbs x 2.04 = (73.44hp)the # of hp per injector.Then the obvious thing to do would be to multiply that figure by 8(cyl)= total theoretical hp.

So 73.44hp x 8(cyl)=587.52 bhp plenty of fuel!Alot of the F/I BMW's putting out 500+ Crank hp are using 36-42 lb injectors.

You can do it by CC's as well. 300cc inj divided by 5= 60hp (per inj) mult by 8(cyl) you have 480 crank hp

gregc

Got the 2.5in pulley on the Powerdyne. That puts blower RPM at around 45K at 6K engine RPM. This is the peak spin for this blower.

Bad news first; this got me some better boost low, but nothing up high. 7-7.3psi max at 6K. Man, that clk55 engine is a good breather. It just says give me more air flow. I can spin the powerdyne faster, with better bearings, but its the air flow of the unit. The 55 engine can suck faster than this unit can put out. Bigger blower is needed.

Good news; with the 12;1 FMU and the boost-a-pump, I have all the fuel I need. My estimates is that I could go to about 9-10psi with this setup. A good steady 83psi across the board, which is about as high as you want.

Using the Split second timing/MAF unit, I am reducing the MAF signal to lean it out. That is good, becasue the MAF pegs today at 5000RPM anyway.

I tested the timing retard and it does seem to work well. In my setup, I remove 1.5degrees per pound of boost. Up top I am reducing 10.5 degrees.

They say you get about 16-18HP to the ground per pound of boost. You then subtract about 4HP per degree of timing removed. So my guess is

290HP dyno tested stock to the ground HP
16*7 = 112
4*7 = 28
Net HP gain ~84HP
If I am about right, I should see ~375HP to the ground. The Auto trany is about 20% loss. So just going rough 375*1.2 = 450 Bass Crank HP?

I really think with my water injection and reduced timing the engine can handle 9psi with margin.

The question is do I go with a Vortech SQ? I want a soft sounding unit. All the other centrif superchargers are loud. Even the SQ is not the best.

I may just stay as-is.

Off to te dyno in a couple of weeks.


By the way. In stead of the boost-a-pump you may try the bigger pumps I found. My pump is the option #1, which is bigger than the stock unit. However, I found that the voltage the pump gets is about 10.5 to 11Volts at higher RPM. Not a lot of voltage. That is why the boost-a-pump is a voltage driver. In summary, even with a better pump option, I am not solf it would help much. It seem the boost-a-pump is the best way to insure good voltage.

c55m8o

I'm in no way any sort of authority on this but as I have read about supercharging theory, what you are describing sounds like exactly what one wants and not bad news at all. I thought boost and heat go hand and hand, and the bane of supercharging "lesser" engines is when the RPMs go up, the boost also sky rockets (and thus heat generation too), but only because the engine is not capable of flowing the air through the engine, so pressure builds. It sounds like you have an ideal setup, where the engine can flow all the supercharger feeds it.

P.S. this is perhaps the single best thread on mbworld.org due to the wealth of detail you are providing on such an esoteric DIY project. Much Kudos to you!

mtimmy

Grec....

I am thinking getting the option 2 pump that you mentioned...

the reason for me not going for boost a pump because I don't want to over drive the pump with 13 14volts... and of course price issue

Do you think it will be enough flow without using the boost a pump...

(the worse case, I can ge the #2 pump and later on add a boost a pump to it if I needed to)

btw., what brand FMU are you using now. I am thinking getting another kind of FMU ., the Vortech unit I am using now can't handle the rail pressure and the plate bended a couple times..

ProjectC55

Instead of the boost a pump option,I did this to my 413whp Eagle talon! With this option you can buy thicker guage wire and do the same thing to your AMG: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/pump-relay.html .The guage wire you use has alot to do with the voltage.Cheaper alternative. You can do both,but I used a cheaper option as far as fuel pump voltage is concerned.My car has used this setup for three yrs and still no problems with my Supra TT fuel pump that I use on my Talon.

mtimmy

Thats very interesting ...

I always thought the gauge of the wire limits the current but not the voltage... the higher the voltage the lower the current ... *I may be wrong though*

just a thought...

c55m8o

...assuming resistance of what you are driving is constant, that inverse relationship is only in transformer circuits.

The science is, you provide voltage, and based how much resistance there is in the circuit (by circuit in this context, I mean device, or motor, or pump), the exact amount of current is =drawn=.
(V = I * R) examples:
Provide 13.5V, where Resistance = 1 ohm, and circuit will draw 13.5 amps.
Provide 13.5V, where Resistance = 10 ohm, and circuit will draw 1.35 amps.

Now, here's how the wire affects driving the pump...
If you have high resistance (high gauge #'ed wire) there's a loss in the wire, and thus a voltage =drop= between the two ends of the wire (example, say 13.5V on the power side of the wire but only 11V making it to the motor side of the wire), so you have less voltage available to drive the motor. Driving the motor with less voltage, where the resistance is a constant, the motor will draw less current; draw less current and the device operates under less power -- specifically by the square of the difference in current from if you drove the pump by 13.5V or 11V. (P = I^2 * R)

mtimmy

Good info!!! thanks for clearing that out for me.,


and., that don't seem to be a hard task for us.... since our battery is in the back., there is only a very short distrance we have to run the wire