220S

Good post and very realistic, unlike many which are often simply based on hearsay and mythology. And speaking of mythology, older Mercedes (1960s-70s and early 80s era with the usual "iron bull feeling of yonder" hyperbole attached) are not without issues. And they were and are extraordinarily expensive to maintain and own. The current versions will be no different over the long haul.

German cars are wonderful for their performance and engineering. I sold my E63 only because in the end I found the Mercedes platform a bit too boring to drive for my tastes which require a more tactile driving feel/response over comfort alone; other German brands do better in that area. But with all German made cars you have to be sure to get the proper 'performance over ownership cost/experience ratio' in order to make your relationship with your vehicle worthwhile. And that 'ratio' is personal and subjective and everyone will have their own individual threshold levels that they can live with.

The Japanese have gotten so much better in the performance arena these days while keeping ownership cost still very low. They tend to have better control over their vendors, and better assembly and supply technology. As we all know, they copy German engineering and simply make it more reliable. They been doing this for decades and not just with automobiles.

Again, German products are excellent in the sense of engineering and those intangible things like "build feel." I've used German engineered Leica cameras for decades but they require maintenance and repair is very expensive (as is their initial purchase cost.) They are often in the repair shop a lot in respect to their Japanese competitors. In fact, the Japanese directly copied the early German cameras after WWII and made their versions much more reliable and less expensive to own. You don't need a big R+D budget when making copies, as all Asian manufacturers know quite well. And they outsold Leica and Zeiss in the end. Japanese cameras don't quite have that 'feel' to them nor do they have any intriguing mythology or history attached, but they certainly get the job done.

And if 'getting the job done' without any flair, drama, breakdowns, and at a lower cost is the number one priority then a Japanese product may be considered 'better' in that respect. And which is why the majority of the population use Japanese made cameras just like they own Japanese cars.

K-A

Ahh, 220s, always my favorite contrarian.

If you want ultimate reliability, go with a Japanese or Korean car, there should be no real argument there.

They lack the feel as design aspect of a good German car, however, thus the tradeoff. Is it worth it to you (logical vs illogical, feel, etc.)?

Look at the W221's, W204's, W212's, etc. All have launched without a hitch compared to pretty much any competitor. All cars will have their niggles and issues, and yes Toyota and the like certainly have theirs, but M-B did an about face in quality when they launched the W221. Totally different ballgame compared to the W220 and W211 era.

Now we have all new motors, with D/I, F/I, etc. Hopefully this won't be another several years of early life issues with those, but I'm sure M-B put ridiculous amounts of R&D into them, as they felt the major impact of their quality year disasters of the mid 90's to mid 00's losing them tons of market share.

gaazmon

220S and K-A, damn I missed u guys It's been a while ever since you guys left the W211 area

K-A

Gaaz! Whastup man! It's like old times.

220S

Um, you're just repeating what I already said.

gaazmon

Good man. Just another day in paradise lol Very close to trading in the E for something else.

I know uve had ur w212 for a while now so how u liking it to the w211??? (since we are on the topic of the 203/204, 211/212, 220/221)

frozen

no.. i wouldn't buy another MB. this is my first and last.. i'll gladly switch over to Lexus, but for now, i'll drive this tank until it completely ****s on me... which by the looks of it, may be another 4-5 years at least since i maintain it pretty well. :P the cupholder could use a replacement though, that's been a few times already in the past 4 years. LOL.

K-A

Nice man! What you thinking about getting? I can imagine you've really bonded with your ride by this point!

I love the W212, and loved the W211. IMO the W211 is still uber timeless and turns my head when I see a good example. The 212's technical build quality and feeling of solidity are on a much higher level. As for the drive, the best way I can put it is it feels like a proper E, i.e like a W211 and the great lineage before it, but refined and tightened up. Biggest drawback is uncharacteristic harshness over rough roads, which hampers the overall experience. Over smooth roads, it has the ideal Luxury-Sedan type of drive I seek that's properly M-B.

As horrible as this was to the innocent bystanders, and aside from the trash who was driving the car, as many of the Youtube commenters were stating, this should be an ad for the E's "tank like virtues". . Even shows off some logic-defying emergency-braking capabilities.

gaazmon

Yeah, we've been through a lot lol, but she's becoming quite the expensive trophy wife to take care of lol. And now with the gas tank defect, that really put me over the line. Something more sporty. I really would like to get my hands on a 370Z touring with sport package also was looking at 2013 v6 mustang premium with performance pack and 2013 hyundai genesis coupe 3.8 track, but overall i think I'd still opt for a couple year old certified 370Z. Only thing I'm iffy about is the practicality since it's 2 seater and no trunk really.

Very good to know. Harshness over rough roads goes to the design of how they wanna be more sport luxury versus just luxury now since everyone else is able to do "the whole package" a la bmw, audi, acura, infiniti. But overall, I would think it "drives" better and smoother, the w211 can be very unresponsive and floaty at times.

But i agree, the w211 is so good looking. every time i park i have to look at her for an instance before i leave.

Oh man... that chase... well watch what happened when they interviewed him after he got cuffed

ozusa

Will I Buy a Mercedes Again?

Yes. I already am. Part by part, over the spare parts counter. Mine has 120K miles on it and that's how it works.

Will I buy one in a showroom again? Maybe.

K-A

Yes, but you really seem to lack the firsthand knowledge of the quality differences between, say, the W211 era, and the W212 era. Hence your continuously bunching "M-B quality" into one group, i.e "Modern Era". It's a different ballgame today than it was in the mid-2000's when it comes to quality. Both anecdotal (check the Forums re: the launch of the W212 VS W211, W204 VS W203, W221 VS W220.... the latters launched with absolute disasters, the formers with nary a common hitch at all.... in fact, the W212 boards are a snooze-fest because there isn't enough going wrong to get people fired up one way or another) and statistical (check M-B's rapid rise in the recent years back up the quality charts).


LOL. I saw that. That dude is a joke, hopefully he's done for good!

Damn, that's too bad your ride is being so problematic. Being a 2004 you got the sh*ts end of the model year stick. The W212 is definitely more planted feeling than the W211. It reminds me of the W126 in that "will plow through anything" old school M-B feel, which is my favorite aspect of its drive. The W211 has it too, but I always felt it was a bit "flimsy" for a Benz and was confirmed of that when I drove the W212 first. As far as styling goes, my opinions of the W211 haven't swayed as a W212 owner.... It's still one of my favorite modern M-B designs.

Looks like you're yearning for a sporty car after your Luxury vacation? I actually really dig the 2013 Mustangs, with the little GT500 look-tweaks, and the standard HID's, etc. The 300+ HP V6 is plenty powerful (with great MPG to boot), in fact it's about as fast as the pre-2011 GT, though you don't get that classic Mustang torquey feel and V8 SOUND. I found the new Mustang 6 to feel really quick, but actually not as "well rounded" as my 268 HP V6 (which gives up almost 40 HP). I think it's mostly due to the 6-Speed tranny of the Mustang.... it just didn't feel as torquey down low, therefore you had to get the RPM's up to get it really moving in comparison as where with my car (or any E350 with the 268 HP motor obviously), it's kind of a more "even" feel all around the powerband.

220S

You don't have any first hand knowledge either. Your comments are always just superfluous rhetoric. It's like reading a cheap novel. "Iron bull feeling of yonder."

I had a 2009 W211 (two of them if you recall) which is the model year that put Mercedes into the top five of the recent Powers dependability report (those were 2009 W211s and not W212s that moved Mercedes up the charts.) So I indeed had a Mercedes with 'better quality' in assembly and yet without the obvious visual cost cutting that the W212 was subjected to. Sure the W212 could be as dependable as the last of the W211 due to that cost cutting if indeed they put the savings into better vendors, assembly, and parts. The MSRP was also reduced in 2010 (granted it was due primarily to a fragile global economy caught in deep recession at the time and inventory was piling up.)

A 'different ballgame' today? Here's a post from MBWorld: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...p-quality.html

Yes, written in 2002. What happened then? Or do you simply believe the press releases that Daimler is currently putting out saying the exact same thing today?

But yeah, I certainly would expect any manufacturer to progress and have better assembly and build quality as time goes by. All cars are a lot better than they were years ago. But on the other hand, currency valuations, global economic issues, factory costs and overhead (balancing production and demand with labor costs) are taking a toll these days. What a manufacturer might like to build gets constrained with reality. And the Chinese economy is built on a very fragile bubble of real estate and development. Daimler is a publicly held company and with investors in the Middle East who all want a return. Cutting costs are indeed a necessity.

But the point is there is no concrete evidence that a current Mercedes is going to not have potential problems down the road. So let's be pragmatic and wait. Until then why not tone down the constantly repeated adjectives. It always sounds like you're talking about a new girlfriend or something.

K-A

Once again, the notion of "car enthusiasm" being any more than clinically and utmost-ly logical seems lost on you. My rants and raves aren't blind if you can actually decipher them properly. I don't just point to any random car and say "that's the one that I will have a passionate automotive affair with and gush about its values". There is some thought process that goes into this, you know.

The 2009 W211 was 7 years into M-B desperately fixing what was launched as a disastrous platform of problems. My 2006 W211 was in the dealer every other week it seemed like. My W212's which I've accumulate more mileage (combined between the two I've had) on than my W211, have been bulletproof for the most part, none of the squirrely "un-MB-like" issues that my W211 was plagued with.

There's a thing called "tactile quality" which you can very well gauge the differences between current and previous Mercs. Where the W211's chassis felt soft, the W212's feels indestructible. The sounds of the doors and compartments closing, the crash test results, the 40% stiffer chassis, double the use of High Strength steel and use of superior steels, etc. all help result in this.

Fit and finish also isn't a question. Where the W211 had panel gaps I could stick two fingers through, the W212 doesn't.

You have to compare the INITIAL years of the W211 to the W212 to learn the story. Of course the W212 will be a more quality car than the W211, its platform was built to a higher code of quality from the get-go, and if it had any wide-spread problems now (which it doesn't), they'd be ironed out by their last years as well.

I'm not gauging my "return to old quality" by "press releases". I am by experiencing them, visualizing them, feeling them, the crash test results, the build difference, and most importantly, the drive. The newer Merc's truly feel like the older Mercs, and so far, since the W221 launched, respective to Luxury Car class competitors, they're back to superiority in regards to commonly reported problems.

gaazmon

Ya he was crazy lol

Ya man, now it's starting to make this weird noise on cold starts like a loud/deep groaning and sounds as if it's coming down to slow to idle when starting it. This airmatic and SBC are ticking time bombs too starting to show the visit workshop message with the arrow pointing up every other day now. And still the pano roof is no good and the car still has the rocking motion at low speeds Also, this damn fuel tank problem that's been showing up on all these cars

Nice nice. Ya a buddy of mine got a W212 E350 and he loves it. He came from a 07 BMW 530i and loves the benz over the old 5 he had. So far no problems with it either.

Lol, ya definitely want something sportier. Ya I mean they say 300hp but 300 american vs 300 german... well you know how it is lol I still haven't tried out the new 350's with DI pushing it to 300hp, they'd be nice for sure I'm surprised MB didn't go with twin turbo for the 350's just as it did for the V8's now (especially since BMW did way back when).

Ya the V8 has the torque but with gas prices still hovering near $4 a gallon around here, it's something to think about. My cousin got a GT500 mustang and though he loves it, the gas mileage is quite a killer (he's getting about 14 to 15 city driving). And after looking at the v6 mustang vs v6 genesis coupe vs 370z, i think the 370Z is what I really want. Ya I'm losing out on the two back seats from the gen coupe or the mustang, but it's no biggy for me. Kind of was getting tired of everyone being like "hey let's take simon's car he has a nice back seat."

K-A

Nice man! Update with what your choice is!

I have to bring this back up as I'm surprised that you couldn't decipher how true their claims were. You obviously realize that the manufacturing process is far from instantaneous in the automotive world, right? The problematic platforms of the W220/W203/W211/etc. eras were products of M-B's decisions in the 90's.

In 2002 they put that plan into effect, and they carried it out greatly. The C216 CL and W221 S, for example, were already frozen in 2002. In 2005 is when we saw great improvements to the quality/reliability of M-B products. By 2007, when those "2002 plans" started to show up finally in all new products (not bandaid'd early broken products), we saw a launch back toward the top of the charts. Then, fast forward to today, when many of the old models are being phased out (those models who actually were made much more quality DURING their production runs as you pointed out, as well) for the all new "Back to M-B quality" products, they are VERY close to the top of the quality charts of ALL automotive manufacturers, and well beyond about all of their Luxury counterparts.

Also, you can't dismiss the obvious proving's of a returned path to quality by how the W212 for one and its era of Merc's practically set records for how rigorous and extensive they did real world development testing. From what I understand, the W220/W211 cars were mostly tested via artificial simulation on computer screens.

Gersh320

I believe this new testing started with the new design of the C class a few years back. One test; 15k miles at redline!!!

K-A

Ah, yeah I know it was during what I call the "new era/back to the old era" which started with the W221. But it was the W204 where M-B REALLY started confidently touting their return to "ultimate quality". I followed the W212's developmental phase extremely closely, and it was astonishing as to how rigorous it was. 15K miles at redline is incredible!

leap

I bought my first and last Mercedes. Love the car, hate the unreliable, constant big $ going into it. 2003 E500 now has 80k on it.

Bought my Wife a very clean low miles Lexus IS250 awd six months ago. Needless to say, I'll be looking for one like hers, or the rwd IS350. The Lexus we travel in. The Mercedes, no further than around town, and that's sad.

Road Trip

It IS sad. What's worse is the obscene rip-off that every dealership service department will attempt every time you're forced to go there because the indy shop can't get the computer software to reset the car.

My wife is driving a 2005 CLK500 w/ 78K and the car still feels great on the road. It absolutely eats tires, though, and I'm starting to get that morbid feeling about impending repairs. By the way, does anybody want a 96 SL600?

E320Star

Hick ... noooooooooooooooooo

tepelena

I repair my own MB, and yes, I would buy another one. Not new though. I buy them a few years old. I never take my car to the stealer unless it's for the free repair on the SBC pump. The early W211 (03 E320) that I have, has had way more problems than the 2002 E320 but I still like it better. I have had a few W210 and they are bullet proof.

The only thing that I would not buy for the time being is a MB with the 7 speed transmission. MB has integrated the transmission control unit inside the transmission and the staler is the only one who can service them. Even if you have STAR (DAS) software you can't repair them without SCN online coding. And they have had a lot of problems with the valve body.

If you are considering one I would also recommend to avoid airmatic suspension and the SBC/Brake Assist.

These cars are a great bargain in you fix them yourself. Btw, it seems to me that they are not holding the price like they used too. That's great news for me.

I personally think the MB service and parts department has found a legal way to rape and rob people. Buy everything online at 1/4 the price of the stealer. Repair it yourself and it ends up being as expensive to maintain as a Hyundai.

To wrap it up, as mentioned by others. MB over-engineers their cars and is the leader in automotive technology. Than Lexus first, the rest of Japan and S. Korea copies them.

The only car that I trust my family to be in is a Mercedes Benz.

ozusa

+1

travis107

Nice price indeed. These brand new car tech innovations really are not that inventive. In certain cases, these things have been utilized in the automotive industry before. Have you been in the market to purchase or sell a used or new auto? If this describes you, find out more on our websites at Gus Johnson dealer Spokane!

Buttons

I would like to answer the question, comment on your comments/facts and also say hello to everyone.
I'm Dave (you can call me Mr.Yamato) and, although this is been left dead for months, I would like to say:

1. Yes I would buy another one. I came into this game with a chunk of change in my pocket and the desire to own and maintain a automobile from THE 1st car company in the world. I knew it wouldn't be cheap but I also knew I wasn't rich or dumb (no offense to anyone!). I always admired the old man who wrenched on his ride in the driveway and washed on Friday morning. I'm 28 (years old) and I enjoy working on my Honda/Nissan thoroughly. I did my homework and order my parts; I do everything myself and stay committed to per-maintenance (as well as scheduled checks/work). with that being said, I haven't ran into any issues with my 2003 W203 C240 4Matic thus far. It's time consuming but I perceived these complaints (while long and ridiculous) to be the "Nature of the beast". I would purchase a newer or preferably older model (late 80's-early 90's E300/500) next. I feel safe in it compared to my Civic and enjoy the drive. The trick, I'm coming to understand with any car is
Enjoyment = Time + Care = Longevity.

2. On another note I would like to say I enjoy your knowledge and witty banter. It's educating and opinionated, while still maintaining comical relief.

3. Again, I'm Mr.Yamato and I appreciate everything you guys have brought to MBWorld.org and the privileged to converse back and forth over Mercedes Benz' and car in general. Your forums are always educational, helpful and relevant to issues I find in my C240. I hope to
Chat it up with you guys again soon.

ACjr

Just traded the 1999 430clk in on a 2008 e550.