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Old 09-29-2013, 12:28 PM   #1
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HID Conversation Bulb Holder Question

Hey everyone,

So yesterday I spent the majority of the day doing an HID conversion for the low beams and fogs on my car. I went with the DDM tuning 55w low beam (6000k) and 35w fog (5000k) kits as well as Philips Diamond Vision 5000k high beams and AZNOptics 5000k LED city lights. So far I will say after a night of use that I really really love the conversion and how much more modern it makes the car look.

It took me quite a long time to do, however, as there were several very annoying issues that had to be solved during the install. The one issue I still can't figure out is this: after installing the metal retaining clip (bulb holder) on the low beam HID I cannot get the bulb twisted back into the housing. A friend and I tried different ways to get it in for about an hour and with borescope determined that the plastic base of the HID from DDM Tuning made the whole assembly a little too thick and the "arms" on the retaining clip that twist into the back of the housing no longer line up. We are not 100% certain on this but I have a very good feeling this is what the problem is. I tried bending them to try to get them to line up but still no luck. I didn't really want to drive around with the low beams just resting in the housing as they would touch the edge of the housing and start to burn them a little (obviously caught it in time but I noticed this would happen - no scorching or damage though)... so I am sort of at a loss as to what I should do. Do they make special retaining clips? Has anyone every run into this issue before? Please let me know about possible solutions. Thanks.
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Old 09-29-2013, 01:23 PM   #2
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:23 AM   #3
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If you are having trouble, spin the mount around. One tab is higher than the other and they go in, in a certain direction.

The clips are in the mail btw.
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:23 AM   #4
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I had the same issue initially when installing my DDM kit, but I was able to bend each tab on the metal retainer just right so it would twist on and stay on. I used a pair of pliers with trial and error. The bulbs have been installed for over two months daily driven with no issues. It's a pain holding the metal retainer and bulb together while trying to twist and install, but get your elbow in the right angle and it's doable.
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:58 AM   #5
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If you are having trouble, spin the mount around. One tab is higher than the other and they go in, in a certain direction.

The clips are in the mail btw.
+1 on this advice. I had the same exact problem as you did. but when i span the mounts around, it takes 2 seconds to lock it in.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:17 PM   #6
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Thank you very much Boardboy and everyone else. I thought I was on the right track but I wanted to make sure. I'll take pics when they are all installed and working properly.
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:20 AM   #7
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Boardboy, today I received the clips in the mail. Thank you very much for that.

But I am having the same problem, and I've spent hours on it and I am very frustrated. What do you mean by "spin the mounts around" - I tried spinning the mount on the back of the headlight itself and it won't move, and I've tried the clips in different directions but I still can't get it. Very frustrated and not sure what to do.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:28 AM   #8
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Id suggest you mark one of the ears of the clip with a marker and use it as a reference either left or right. If it wont fit once you try it, flip/rotate the ears of the clip. It only locks one way so if you cant get it the first time, youll def get it the second time. Its really easy once you find out the trick. Goodluck mate!
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:36 PM   #9
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Okay thank you!
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:41 PM   #10
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As he said. Basically the clips are two different heights and only one way to install. It's a PITA but you will eventually get it.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:51 PM   #11
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Here's why what you're doing is a waste of time:

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html

Sell or return the HID kit... seriously...
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #12
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I completely disagree with your premise, Irondad. All I had to do was get new bulb holders and the ones from boardboy worked perfectly after a little tweaking. That was the only problem, and these cars don't have sealed beam headlights. They have projectors that work quite well with HIDs - Premium 2 came with bi-xenons, so it's not that much of a stretch to be honest. The light output and pattern is amazing and it makes seeing at night much easier. Many members have used the DDM Tuning kits with the slimline ballasts so it's not a ricey or junk modification.
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by AMGAffalterbach View Post
Hey everyone,

So yesterday I spent the majority of the day doing an HID conversion for the low beams and fogs on my car. I went with the DDM tuning 55w low beam (6000k) and 35w fog (5000k) kits as well as Philips Diamond Vision 5000k high beams and AZNOptics 5000k LED city lights. So far I will say after a night of use that I really really love the conversion and how much more modern it makes the car look.

It took me quite a long time to do, however, as there were several very annoying issues that had to be solved during the install. The one issue I still can't figure out is this: after installing the metal retaining clip (bulb holder) on the low beam HID I cannot get the bulb twisted back into the housing. A friend and I tried different ways to get it in for about an hour and with borescope determined that the plastic base of the HID from DDM Tuning made the whole assembly a little too thick and the "arms" on the retaining clip that twist into the back of the housing no longer line up. We are not 100% certain on this but I have a very good feeling this is what the problem is. I tried bending them to try to get them to line up but still no luck. I didn't really want to drive around with the low beams just resting in the housing as they would touch the edge of the housing and start to burn them a little (obviously caught it in time but I noticed this would happen - no scorching or damage though)... so I am sort of at a loss as to what I should do. Do they make special retaining clips? Has anyone every run into this issue before? Please let me know about possible solutions. Thanks.
did you need the error eliminator for the fogs?
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:52 PM   #14
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I completely disagree with your premise, Irondad. All I had to do was get new bulb holders and the ones from boardboy worked perfectly after a little tweaking. That was the only problem, and these cars don't have sealed beam headlights. They have projectors that work quite well with HIDs - Premium 2 came with bi-xenons, so it's not that much of a stretch to be honest. The light output and pattern is amazing and it makes seeing at night much easier. Many members have used the DDM Tuning kits with the slimline ballasts so it's not a ricey or junk modification.
It's not my premise, it's established science, fact, and law. I don't mean to be unkind, but your belief that it's only a sealed beam versus projector issue makes it patently clear that you haven't done the research, didn't read the article I attached, and fundamentally don't understand the facts in play. There's a reason why what you're doing is illegal in this country and in most countries. (Google it if you don't believe me and see what the STVO or NHTSA and other federal regulatory organizations have to say about the legality of HID retrofit kits, or see UNECE r98 or FMVSS/CMVSS108.)

The bottom line is that if you put a HID bulb in a headlamp designed for a halogen bulb, you're creating glare for oncoming drivers and not improving your lighting performance, regardless of what your perception or anecdotal evidence is.

If you want to be one of THOSE guys... well... then keep rockin' your retrofits.

Last edited by irondad; 10-11-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:35 PM   #15
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The projector in the halogen and Bi-Xenon premium 2 package are the same for the W211. It is the exact same part and the light spread and cutoff are perfect. It is NOT illegal to do an HID conversion in the United States I have no idea where you got that, and I can tell you my lighting performance has been improved greatly without creating any unnecessary dazzle or glare.

You're very misinformed on this topic. Plain and simple.

@bigbudha Yes, you need the BOW3 error eliminator for fogs.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:42 PM   #16
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The projector in the halogen and Bi-Xenon premium 2 package are the same for the W211. It is the exact same part and the light spread and cutoff are perfect. It is NOT illegal to do an HID conversion in the United States I have no idea where you got that, and I can tell you my lighting performance has been improved greatly without creating any unnecessary dazzle or glare.

You're very misinformed on this topic. Plain and simple.
The projector is an integral part of the headlamp and not available as an individual part, so I'm very curious as to how you come to that (erroneous) conclusion. I.e. what's the basis of your claim?

I've provided facts, while you've only provided anecdotes. I'm genuinely interested in the basis for your claims... but something other than your anecdotal evidence.

So... if I'm misinformed, please provide me with citations as to how you're informed. Plain and simple.

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Old 10-13-2013, 10:47 PM   #17
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Maybe this will help:

(Reposted) (See link for pictures)

Quote:
All rebutals regarding HID retrofits WILL NOT be tollerated as it's been clearly explained that they don't work as intended and testimonies stating "they work fine" are without any scientific basis which means they're WRONG.


NHTSA didn't "discover" HID "retrofitting" was bad after they were in the market, they knew about it years ago. NHTSA just chose not to be proactive about the issue until there were numerous complaints about excessive glare.

Based on CURRENT technology, HID retrofitting is ILLEGAL *anywhere* in the world and will be as long as humans roam the earth. Keyword "CURRENT". This does not necessarily mean there won't be a legal one that meets photometric standards of either UNECE r98 or FMVSS/CMVSS108.

To everyone going ape**** as to why NHTSA is being such an *** about it, you are ignorant. Wait, don't be pissed. You NEED to learn WHY they are illegal first and understand scientific facts before you have the right to comment. In most cases, people who went from "ignorant" to "informed" have no comment.

So now, the basics.
There are several issues as to why HID (or gas-discharge) lighting must be heavily controlled. One of them is the high light flux from the xenon balasts. They are not "brighter", they are simply more efficient at outputing light that meets the 150000 candela limit requirements. Because it is so effective at this, HID headlights' beam pattern MUST have a cutoff. MOST halogen headlights still on the road today do not have a beam pattern cut off due to the inherent characteristics of the SAE/DOT beam pattern design (lots of "scattered" light). Most of the people performing these HID "retrofits" are doing it to older vehicles that have such headlights. So that's one issue.
What's the other one? Fitment of the capsule itself. D2R capsules are NOT designed to be crammed into a HB2,9004,9006,9007,H1,H7 or ANY halogen housing. When you do this, the bulb either doesn't stay in place very well (as demonstrated by many board members here) or is geometrically offset even when it is "well secured". Ok, to understand this fact better, think of your typical maglite where you have the "zooming" feature. When you have the bulb too far out or in, it changes the beam pattern of the light dramatically.
So, here's an example of the BAD results when you just cram bulbs into the wrong housing

there's no need to comment on how fubar it is
this is coming from a P5 with Audi A8 capsules, but the owner chose to use just the xenon capsules and *not* the projector housing... this makes it not "A8 lights" anymore

Ok, now that we understand the number 2 important fact of "why", let's go to the other one. How does the light appear IN the bulb housing itself? We know halogen bulbs uses a filament. We also know xenon bulbs have no filaments are filled with as the name implies, xenon and other trace gases. Ok, so when a xenon bulb is turned "on", the gas gets electrically charged, but based on phsyics (which I basically know nothing about), the electrically excited xenon gases want to move away. This is stopped by the glass capsule. So the effect that we get is an arc that starts from one end of the capsule, curves upward, then back down at the other end. How does this differ from a halogen bulb? A halogen bulb just glows in a cylindrical shape due to the filament and depending on how the filament is placed in the balast determines the geometric position/"center" of the light. So how does this affect the beam pattern when you put in a "misaligned" bulb? Simply put, you get an unpredictable beam pattern that can range from spotty lighting, or just a high beam-like beam pattern. So what about those "dual beam" HIDs? They do nothing but rob you of funds, that's what. How it works is an electromagnet is energized located next to the xenon balast and when that happens, it moves the arc to a different location. Because of the unpredictability in controlling the geometric position of the arc properly, it has NOT been used in ANY OEM application.

So now, the last thing. Most of you will now go "but my beam pattern is fine!" That's good for you. One thing that you can't see is the light distribution in various areas of the beam pattern's light field. For one thing, because of the increased light flux of the HID light, the hotspot intensity has been exponentially increased and therefore the halogen's light housing does not have the ability to control that (redirect) light to safe levels. Other typical places where excessive or insufficient light has appeared is usually at the far left of the light (in the negative quadrant) and at an area at the lower part of the positive quadrant. So wtf does that have to do with pissing people off? Increasing the hotspot also means increasing the glare because the hotspot is where most of the "stray light" comes from. So why is there a hotspot anyway and why didn't they take that **** out to begin with? Simply not possible because the hotspot is also where the most light is (the light bulb), and also because of the fact that without it, you cannot light up overhead roadsigns effectively. Now as for the light in other areas of the beam pattern, you will either not see as effectively in those areas, or you will have lighting way over the legal limit (limits which were put in place to prevent glare "coming from the corner" and going to someone's mirror).

This is recent, done on a 02 protege ES with HB2 housings:
http://www.msprotege.com/forum/attac...achmentid=6282
notice that the beam pattern has changed and you can tell already that the increased light flux at the hot spot is causing excessive glare just from the light above the cutoff alone. Notice the major reduction in light at the far edges of the beam pattern. Also notice the reduced amount of light at the very bottom of the wall (if this was shining on the road, it would be reduced light CLOSE to the car). That's it for basic analysis.


So, based on these BASIC scientific facts, there is NO way anyone can argue with NHTSA or UNECE about their decision to making HID retrofitting illegal. In otherwords, you can't convince them to making them legal to use.

Don't give your hopes up. The experts KNOW that HID can be beneficial. So, they are actually working on a SAFE and legal retrofitting method for existing/older vehicles (this is still years away though).

And for you people confused about HID being "illegal", it is not. RETROFITTING is. Any car that has HID installed as original equipment is expected (in America, in the case of Europe and anywhere else in the world, absolutely yes) to be legal and meets all specifications outlined in FMVSS108. But what about safe and proper HID light housings? Does that mean you can put those on a car? It'll be VERY safe yes. But according to NHTSA's weird interpetation of the law, if it's not original replacement equipment, it is illegal. This means whatever comes out of the vehicle must be replaced with the same type. In the case of MANY vehicles with specially designed light housings from the factory, if you break it, you have to replace it with the same kind.

And a little bonus for you all who have attentively suffered through this long post... this is what a PROPER H4 halogen beam pattern based on the UNECE r20 specification should be like (this is from my car and is equiped with Osram Silverstars):




and you think I didn't suffer? I spent an hour writing this!






here's a pic of what a real HID beam pattern should look like... from a European spec 2000 Audi S4 housing (UNECE r98 right hand traffic compliant) using D2S capsules:



very even light distribution, not big blobs of light

and the US-spec DOT VOL HID beam pattern of a 2000 Audi S4:


much more weaker lighting
Original post source: HID lighting, why they are illegal.

Last edited by irondad; 10-13-2013 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 10-13-2013, 11:19 PM   #18
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"Most of the people performing these HID "retrofits" are doing it to older vehicles that have such headlights. So that's one issue."

I am not doing this. I am installing them into a car with projectors approved for xenons anyway, because the W211 COMES WITH HIDS with Premium 2.

"Ok, so when a xenon bulb is turned "on", the gas gets electrically charged, but based on phsyics (which I basically know nothing about)"

Clearly.

"therefore the halogen's light housing does not have the ability to control that (redirect) light to safe levels"

Well the projector housing my DDM tuning kit is installed in does. Hence why there is a cutoff just like the HID kit that comes with the premium 2 package. You can see this when I had a friend drive a car up a concrete slatted street. Every time the car hit a major bump you can see the HID "twinkle" on my setup showing that there is clearly a cutoff and the beam pattern is correct. This did not differ from any of the other cars that passed nor was there any increased twinkle or glare.

"much more weaker lighting"

Who wrote this? An illiterate monkey? You got this from a kid that has a COME AT ME BRO profile picture on a WRX forum that can't spell physics, tolerate, or any of the above misspellings correctly. If you look at the beam pattern on my HID retrofit you will see they match up PERFECTLY with the pictures on that article. Why? BECAUSE I AM FITTING THEM INTO A HOUSING DESIGNED FOR HIDs SINCE THE W211 CAME WITH HIDs AS AN OPTION.

The entire premise of the article and NHTSA complaints are based upon the idea that people are fitting them into housings that are not designed for HIDs thus causing hotspots, improper beam pattern as a result from the way the arc is created in the xenon bulb, and other such problems that have to do with antiquated technology being used with newer HIDs. The W211, on the other hand, has projector housings that perform just fine with H7 HID bulbs inside of them. Why? Because they were designed for HIDs they are the same part number regardless of Premium 1 or Premium 2 package (with the latter having Xenons from factory).

You are COMPLETELY misinformed about this topic because you clearly don't understand the setup we are dealing with. Many forum members and I have installed the DDM Tuning HIDs without any problems or improper beam pattern or intensity. You tell me that they aren't actually any brighter which is also 100% untrue, they definitely help at night as their light output and pattern is not mismatched at all.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:25 PM   #19
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You say I am completely misinformed, however when I ask you to substantiate your claims you only provide opinion and anecdotal evidence. No facts. None.

I looked into doing this a few years ago and researched this thoroughly and decided not to do it. Here are the facts I gathered (in addition to what I've posted and you ignored or argued against illogically or with non-sequiturs):

From Hella (mfg of the W211 headlamps) and Mercedes-Benz: the projectors in the halogen versus the HID are not the same. You claim they are, so provide facts to substantiate that.

From Hella: you cannot put HID bulbs in the halogen projectors on a W211 without creating glare and negatively effecting the lighting output. You claim you can, so provide facts to substantiate that.

From the general counsel of the NHTSA: putting HID bulbs in cars that came with halogen bulbs is illegal. You claim it's not, so provide the FACTS to substantiate that.

You seem to know better than the manufacturer of the automobile, the manufacturer of the headlamps and the general counsel of the regulatory agency, without citing any facts or authority. Your premise, basically, is: "I did it, we did it, and it's awesome". That's it.

You are stating opinion as fact.

That's the problem with forums, and often people buy it, but the bottom line is that opinion and fact are not the same thing.

If you think my facts presented in my posts are misstated, then call or email each organization and ask them. Get some facts from them. It is entirely possible that in the last year the projector has changed, the design of HID bulbs has changed to match halogen optics, and the legislation has changed, and I'm giving you the opportunity to prove that.

So... this is very simple: Provide facts to substantiate your claims. Each of them. Until then, it's all just your opinion, and you're not qualified to give expert opinions, so it's just personal opinions based on anecdotal evidence.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:16 PM   #20
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I thought I was the only one who wanted to break the whole damn headlight trying to get the Bulbs in!!!
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:18 PM   #21
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What bulb holders did you use and Where Can I get them?
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:41 PM   #22
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I thought I was the only one who wanted to break the whole damn headlight trying to get the Bulbs in!!!
LOL... yeah... it's hard to argue that the projectors are the same, or that the bulbs fit, when you have to modify something to make them fit
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:35 AM   #23
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What bulb holders did you use and Where Can I get them?
This is a common problem it seems only with the DDM Tuning sets, don't worry you'll get it eventually. The bulb holders I got were from Boardboy he had an extra set that came in and he sent them to me in the mail for free. I believe they were from MTEC, but do a Google search to find some, most look to be the same - they are cut holders so you can slip them right on the wire and bulb base without having to cut and resolder the wire. These also have larger pins on the side so they fit in with the slight bulb base thickness difference. You still have the bend them up a little bit to get it to fit. But it is 10x easier than using the factory clips.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:49 AM   #24
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Irondad, I have been trying to find that statement from HELLA and I can't find it, I checked with a distributor and the parts are exactly the same they said it didn't matter so I am not sure where you are getting this. Link?

I will upload some pictures of the cutoff and pattern on a flat surface. You can tell it is perfectly within specification for the LHD countries. I had it professionally leveled as well and when they did a test they did not find any problems with the pattern or the cutoff.
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:52 AM   #25
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Let me just upload this now to show you that the DOT headlight pattern is the specification my car falls under and is exactly the pattern my headlights with HIDs projectors. I will take a picture tomorrow night with a good camera and show you.Click the image to open in full size.
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