When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Mercedes stomps Audi and BMW at the upper end, if you read the post. Who said anything about MB dealers making it on just CLS, S, AMG and SL sales alone? Do you know what you're talking about? Seriously, you sound confused. No where did I state that dealers would need to make it on just those sales alone.
You're right, Audi is doing quite well. MB's ATP has come down and Audi's has come up, now what ATP has to do with who has the most market share is beyond me. Confused again, two different metrics.
M
"Mercedes just kills it in the U.S. in this regard. BMW and Audi just don't have the top end sales." Did you mean something else by "top end sales?"
My post: Very few MB dealers are going to make it on CLS, S, AMG and SL sales alone.(Emphasis added) I never "said anything about MB dealers making in on just CLS, S, AMG and SL sales alone." I said they could NOT make it on just those vehicles alone, so they need to expand sales in other areas-SUV's, E, C, etc. Which is why they are introducing the GLA and CLA and have discussed bringing A and B models to US.
Read your own posts and also read what others post more carefully.
"Mercedes just kills it in the U.S. in this regard. BMW and Audi just don't have the top end sales." Did you mean something else by "top end sales?"
My post: Very few MB dealers are going to make it on CLS, S, AMG and SL sales alone.(Emphasis added) I never "said anything about MB dealers making in on just CLS, S, AMG and SL sales alone." I said they could NOT make it on just those vehicles alone, so they need to expand sales in other areas-SUV's, E, C, etc. Which is why they are introducing the GLA and CLA and have discussed bringing A and B models to US.
Read your own posts and also read what others post more carefully.
You're confused man, move on. I didn't say squat about dealers having to rely on those sales alone. You're trying to fuse two different points and you lost both of them.
You're confused man, move on. I didn't say squat about dealers having to rely on those sales alone. You're trying to fuse two different points and you lost both of them.
M
From reading your posts, it appeared to me that you were trying to rationalize that MB sales of its top models was sufficient for MB - or that the top models are all that matter. So, no reason to be concerned about anything below the "E" and NEW "C" Classes.
BTW, you have a BMW, a Lexus and a 16 year old MB? Is that correct or am I confused again? Basing this on your post information. What's the M for?
A small comment on your larger discussion. BMW actually does have a direct CLA competitor in addition to having an entry level 3 Series. If one is not restricted by door count, as I was not, thereby allowing for cross-consideration and competition, the 2 Series is priced and sized similarly to the CLA. Having reviewed the options among CLA, Audi S3, and 2 Series, I chose the 2 for the fabulous dynamics and manual transmission, sacrificing the rear doors. As the 3 became "too Mercerdes-like" with a softer, more isolated feel, the 2 has been very well received as the spiritual flagship of the BMW brand, winning Top Ten from C&D and All Star from Automobile, displacing the 3 (in both, I think). Other than interesting design, the CLA falls so far short in this segment in this 3 way competition. If the S3 had a stick, it also would have been a preferred choice. For those who used to appreciate more BMW models, one can only hope, as C&D suggested, that future vehicle (such as on the upcoming 35UP Platform) follow the lead of the 2, just in a larger size. Their latest round of holiday tv ads certainly focus on the "Ultimate Driving Machine" position. They just need to realign the higher series products to fit the statement again.
The CLA and A3 aren't even in the same league as the 2 series as it is a bonafide German rwd car.
The CLA and A3 aren't even in the same league as the 2 series as it is a bonafide German rwd car.
I completely agree, hence my purchase and absolute customer satisfaction! They are quite different in capability and driving performance. However, they are in the same market segment based on size, price, and positioning as entry level German luxury-brand cars. When the 1 Series debuts, it may displace the 2 as the more natural competitor, but until then, those current entries are grouped. Casual observance of road test comparisons reinforce this market perception.
From reading your posts, it appeared to me that you were trying to rationalize that MB sales of its top models was sufficient for MB - or that the top models are all that matter. So, no reason to be concerned about anything below the "E" and NEW "C" Classes.
BTW, you have a BMW, a Lexus and a 16 year old MB? Is that correct or am I confused again? Basing this on your post information. What's the M for?
Nope, you were confused. I was talking about where they sell a lot of cars at, the upper segments, it had nothing to do with what dealers can get by with or that only high end sales matter. We were talking about ATP and stated the reason why MB's higher than Audi's and BMW's. Not sure what is so hard to grasp here.
Nope, you were confused. I was talking about where they sell a lot of cars at, the upper segments, it had nothing to do with what dealers can get by with or that only high end sales matter. We were talking about ATP and stated the reason why MB's higher than Audi's and BMW's. Not sure what is so hard to grasp here.
M
Upon recommendation of moderator, I have decided to ignore your posts. This will be better for both of us. Didn't realize I could do this on this forum. Happy Motoring!
I have read several posts about a ignore tab how is that done? I have no beef here but am just curious?
Go to your user control panel (user CP in the blue bar under the thread details). Once there, under "settings and options" on the left side of the screen you will see "edit ignore list". Just add a username there and you won't get updates whenever they do anything.
Upon recommendation of moderator, I have decided to ignore your posts. This will be better for both of us. Didn't realize I could do this on this forum. Happy Motoring!
Good, you probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place since you're clearly confused.
I have read several posts about a ignore tab how is that done? I have no beef here but am just curious?
The Ignore function is useful. There are a couple trolls here that tend to ruin the normal discussion that we try to have here.
It will make your page look like this:
Go to "User CP"
On the left side under "Settings & Options" click "Edit Ignore List"
You will have to type the name of the person you wish to add. (I don't know if there is an easier way)
I wish you could simply click on the persons name in the forum and select "add to ignore list"
Ignore means just not read it. Read something else. If you look here that means you are interested. Isn't it?
Ignore removes the temptation to read postings by a specific individual. You may still be interested in the thread and what others have said though. Hard to resist reading posts if they are there in front of you. (I can resist anything except temptation.) That's why the site (and many others) have an ignore feature.
Maybe BMW is selling well due to the nonstop cheapo 320 lease ads I see on Seattle TV virtually every morning while getting ready for work. We don't have the blowout deals on odd color base models like apparently exist in La-La-Land, but it isn't just MB with the fire sale ideal. Or the 535d that a salesman said they'd "give away" when I was browsing a few weeks ago. Audi had an overwhelming amount of similar ads for base A3 leases when the sedan was introduced here, too. Some dramatic types say MB is killing itself by moving downmarket - maybe MB is just slowly bringing over a modified ROW brand strategy to Murka, one of the few markets with its own reality. Bring over some minivans and A-hatches, - and thanks to the higher models, real world cachet won't suffer, just as it hasn't in Europe. Maybe just to those who picked up an ultimate machine and find that it isn't hugely different from a boring comfy old E. Hype and reality. I don't know of any S drivers who complain about the CLA. To drive the latter, chances are you'll still have good credit and above average income. Not completely downmarket.
Oh, a lot of those black Audis on the road in Europe are rentals and fleet cars. I had a rental A8 in Germany. Company cars are still a thing there too.
The Ignore function is useful. There are a couple trolls here that tend to ruin the normal discussion that we try to have here. It will make your page look like this:"
So a lot of threads may look like this to you now.....
Go to your user control panel (user CP in the blue bar under the thread details). Once there, under "settings and options" on the left side of the screen you will see "edit ignore list". Just add a username there and you won't get updates whenever they do anything.
THANK YOU! This is VERY helpful. I'm not sure why the software doesn't allow you to click on a person's name in a message thread and ignore them there. Either way, AWESOME! It makes the forums much more enjoyable. Now to figure out how to ignore the wheel adverts.
@Tjdehya: Thanks for the starter suggestions on who to put on the ignore list.
THANK YOU! This is VERY helpful. I'm not sure why the software doesn't allow you to click on a person's name in a message thread and ignore them there. Either way, AWESOME! It makes the forums much more enjoyable. Now to figure out how to ignore the wheel adverts.
@Tjdehya: Thanks for the starter suggestions on who to put on the ignore list.
You can also access Edit Options under User CP and then Thread Display Options. This will allow you to stop signatures and avatars from showing up in posts.
These options only work if you are logged in. If you visit the site and do not log in, then you can see everything.
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Originally Posted by fintail
Maybe BMW is selling well due to the nonstop cheapo 320 lease ads I see on Seattle TV virtually every morning while getting ready for work. We don't have the blowout deals on odd color base models like apparently exist in La-La-Land, but it isn't just MB with the fire sale ideal. Or the 535d that a salesman said they'd "give away" when I was browsing a few weeks ago. Audi had an overwhelming amount of similar ads for base A3 leases when the sedan was introduced here, too. Some dramatic types say MB is killing itself by moving downmarket - maybe MB is just slowly bringing over a modified ROW brand strategy to Murka, one of the few markets with its own reality. Bring over some minivans and A-hatches, - and thanks to the higher models, real world cachet won't suffer, just as it hasn't in Europe. Maybe just to those who picked up an ultimate machine and find that it isn't hugely different from a boring comfy old E. Hype and reality. I don't know of any S drivers who complain about the CLA. To drive the latter, chances are you'll still have good credit and above average income. Not completely downmarket.
Oh, a lot of those black Audis on the road in Europe are rentals and fleet cars. I had a rental A8 in Germany. Company cars are still a thing there too.
In EU it's different as MB's are the domestic product, taxis, fleet cars, etc. That wouldn't work in the States imo. It carries a different kind of pride there. Almost every MB I saw there was some sort of taxi.
When I asked my friends and family when I went through London, Germany and Paris (of all different income brackets, one affluent and in the market for a luxury car) they all said that MB's aspirational status wasn't the same if you wanted to spend bigger bucks, as it increasingly "normalized". Mind you that they still liked or admired the brand to extents, and it isn't affecting volume sales (it's intended for volume sales) the image shifted in another direction and some more bespoke brands started coming up on radars (though when it comes to it, they're aren't many viable or plentiful luxury options there outside of the "big 3" which the "big 3" are able to benefit from).
Imo in the U.S, with an entirely different market of Asian and American cars being the utilitarian brands of populous, the Germans will sacrifice more from jumping on that boat. Mind you, I was in Europe in 2012, before a lot of the newer introduced models.
I've spent a bit of time in Europe, Germany and Switzerland especially, I know what it's like there. I think you are right in that MB on this continent does have a different kind of pride, but it hasn't always been that way. In the 60s or even 70s, many, if not most, US market MBs were workhorse cars just like in Europe. They had a premium price, but not *that* much (my relatively highline W111 220SE cost about the same as a nice Buick when new, W110s were the price of mainstream well equipped big 3 cars) - they were desirable for engineering, durability/material quality, and aesthetics. Price point wasn't part of it. MB can still compete on those points - but sometimes it does have to put forth a better effort than has been seen in the recent past.
At least on the German market, I am not sure if MB cachet has changed at all. It's still an everything brand. A little A150 doesn't diminish an S65. I don't know about France, but I suspect it's not the hugest market for the brands. Definitely as RR and Bentley have increased volumes and become more mainstream (probably due to this being the new belle epoque, as well), those may have poached some sales from big MBs, but only so much. I don't know who the Germans could sacrifice things to, if they try to become everything brands here. 25 years ago, the mouths predicted that Lexus and Infiniti would destroy these brands. Today, well.
Something else about Audi - at least according to the revered thoughts of one Jeremy Clarkson - it's the brand BMW "drivers" have migrated towards. And I don't mean that in a good way Some of what I see on the roads from that brand in the eastside Seattle suburbs makes him appear to be correct, too.
Originally Posted by K-A
In EU it's different as MB's are the domestic product, taxis, fleet cars, etc. That wouldn't work in the States imo. It carries a different kind of pride there. Almost every MB I saw there was some sort of taxi.
When I asked my friends and family when I went through London, Germany and Paris (of all different income brackets, one affluent and in the market for a luxury car) they all said that MB's aspirational status wasn't the same if you wanted to spend bigger bucks, as it increasingly "normalized". Mind you that they still liked or admired the brand to extents, and it isn't affecting volume sales (it's intended for volume sales) the image shifted in another direction and some more bespoke brands started coming up on radars (though when it comes to it, they're aren't many viable or plentiful luxury options there outside of the "big 3" which the "big 3" are able to benefit from).
Imo in the U.S, with an entirely different market of Asian and American cars being the utilitarian brands of populous, the Germans will sacrifice more from jumping on that boat. Mind you, I was in Europe in 2012, before a lot of the newer introduced models.
Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Originally Posted by fintail
I've spent a bit of time in Europe, Germany and Switzerland especially, I know what it's like there. I think you are right in that MB on this continent does have a different kind of pride, but it hasn't always been that way. In the 60s or even 70s, many, if not most, US market MBs were workhorse cars just like in Europe. They had a premium price, but not *that* much (my relatively highline W111 220SE cost about the same as a nice Buick when new, W110s were the price of mainstream well equipped big 3 cars) - they were desirable for engineering, durability/material quality, and aesthetics. Price point wasn't part of it. MB can still compete on those points - but sometimes it does have to put forth a better effort than has been seen in the recent past.
At least on the German market, I am not sure if MB cachet has changed at all. It's still an everything brand. A little A150 doesn't diminish an S65. I don't know about France, but I suspect it's not the hugest market for the brands. Definitely as RR and Bentley have increased volumes and become more mainstream (probably due to this being the new belle epoque, as well), those may have poached some sales from big MBs, but only so much. I don't know who the Germans could sacrifice things to, if they try to become everything brands here. 25 years ago, the mouths predicted that Lexus and Infiniti would destroy these brands. Today, well.
Something else about Audi - at least according to the revered thoughts of one Jeremy Clarkson - it's the brand BMW "drivers" have migrated towards. And I don't mean that in a good way Some of what I see on the roads from that brand in the eastside Seattle suburbs makes him appear to be correct, too.
Yes, exactly, "everything brand", that's what I got from it. It's their home team so they'll ride around in them as Taxi's, and then go splurge on them for aspirational toys. Amazing how the German cars can be everything out there, but it makes sense as that obvious dominance in engineering translates out here in its way of a sort of "exotic import prestige" (relatively speaking).
When I asked these people about how M-B's status in the market maintained through their expansion, they maintained that it's still desirable, always will be, but in the sense of pure upper-market aspiration, it naturally diluted and diminished a little bit (again, as you mentioned as well, it's not like there's an overwhelming supply of quality hoices otherwise, so they benefit from that, which is why we see careful expansion by brands like RR/Bentley/Porsche/Maserati and a little attempt from Aston as well as they clearly see this and want to take more of that upper market volume).
When did M-B start to get more of that "luxury cachet" regard in the U.S, as you mention how back in the day it was not really riding on that perception element as much? Was is the W126 era? I'd imagine before that, during the 280 SE Coupe in the 70's?
Yeah, the Clarkson "*****'s" seemed to have moved over to Audi.
Lol, the "p" word is edited out. It's what a porcupine has.
I don't see the "everything" ideal as a negative, and I don't think it is failing on this continent - it's everything, but not cheap everything. A basic A-class in Europe is still a bit more expensive than similar cars from other makers, just as a CLA isn't exactly cheap. There's definitely some home team pride involved, and rightfully so - but the premium cachet applies to all models. I think it works the same for the brand in many countries who receive the full MB range too - although maybe not so much in France, who from my experience, are every bit as nationalistic about cars as are Germans.
I don't know what could have made MB suddenly seen less special in other markets, as they've had the small/cheaper models for much longer - A-class is nearly 20 years old now. I think some of it might just be good marketing - a Maserati or Porsche isn't made in a little wooden shop by traditionalist craftsmen, they are volume products just as much as anything (Ghibli esp). MB doesn't have much history legitimately competing with RR/Bentley or even Aston, I think those attract a different buyer from the start. But some of that image could backfire - I could see some of these being associated as the car for dirty money, if current trends continue. Riding around in a relatively anonymous S-class, with an interior not too far off those exotic names, might not be so bad.
MB started making significant gains in the US starting around 1969, when MB put a V8 in 108 sedans and the timeless coupes/cabrios. The V8 was a necessity for American highline buyers. The R107 SLs and W116 S-class sealed it - they were very advanced when new, stylish for the time, and demolished the competition. Those cars gained the brand infinite momentum in the US. They had enough cachet to make the utilitarian W123 very desirable, too.
I think the Audi driver term had to do with a rooster, and I can't say he is totally off base - every brand has jerky drivers, but some go all out
Yes, exactly, "everything brand", that's what I got from it. It's their home team so they'll ride around in them as Taxi's, and then go splurge on them for aspirational toys. Amazing how the German cars can be everything out there, but it makes sense as that obvious dominance in engineering translates out here in its way of a sort of "exotic import prestige" (relatively speaking).
When I asked these people about how M-B's status in the market maintained through their expansion, they maintained that it's still desirable, always will be, but in the sense of pure upper-market aspiration, it naturally diluted and diminished a little bit (again, as you mentioned as well, it's not like there's an overwhelming supply of quality hoices otherwise, so they benefit from that, which is why we see careful expansion by brands like RR/Bentley/Porsche/Maserati and a little attempt from Aston as well as they clearly see this and want to take more of that upper market volume).
When did M-B start to get more of that "luxury cachet" regard in the U.S, as you mention how back in the day it was not really riding on that perception element as much? Was is the W126 era? I'd imagine before that, during the 280 SE Coupe in the 70's?
Yeah, the Clarkson "*****'s" seemed to have moved over to Audi.
Lol, the "p" word is edited out. It's what a porcupine has.
I've spent a bit of time in Europe, Germany and Switzerland especially, I know what it's like there. I think you are right in that MB on this continent does have a different kind of pride, but it hasn't always been that way. In the 60s or even 70s, many, if not most, US market MBs were workhorse cars just like in Europe. They had a premium price, but not *that* much (my relatively highline W111 220SE cost about the same as a nice Buick when new, W110s were the price of mainstream well equipped big 3 cars) - they were desirable for engineering, durability/material quality, and aesthetics. Price point wasn't part of it. MB can still compete on those points - but sometimes it does have to put forth a better effort than has been seen in the recent past.
You took me back to the early days of my love affair with this brand starting with my Dads '59 180. Wasn't about prestige then at all. My friends thought it was an ugly little car compared to their dad's Chrysler Newports and Pontiac Catalina's in some sense they were right but it was a fine ugly little car that could run all day at it's admittedly modest top speed. I adored it. I would imagine the craftsmen back in Germany hand stitching the upholstery. It was the epitome of quality and dedicated engineering.
Love your collection...Used to drool over one of our church members black over red 220SE fintail. I eventually owned a coupe.
11-20-2014, 03:20 PM
Some of what I see on the roads from that brand in the eastside Seattle suburbs makes him appear to be correct, too. 
